counter-meson fleet

[telegraph (OP)]

I once have met a race that destroyed my entire pacifist empire in a few turns with mesons. Now I decided to prepare before I meet them again. So here are my assumpions/knowledge/situation:

1. They prefer to fight at point-blank range, sometimes ramming my ships.
2. They have a lot of meson guns.
3. I have a good kinetic expert, but I do not have any energy weapons guys at all.
4. My railgun tech is pretty short-range.

So I decided to build my fleet with strong emphasis on missiles:

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Agincourt - 2 class Missile Destroyer    34,000 tons     379 Crew     1938.6 BP      TCS 680  TH 1500  EM 0
2205 km/s     Armour 3-93     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 25     PPV 15
Maint Life 3.96 Years     MSP 891    AFR 369%    IFR 5.1%    1YR 90    5YR 1356    Max Repair 252 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 28 months    Spare Berths 1   
Magazine 195   

"Marko Polo" 150 EP Commercial Ion Drive (10)    Power 150    Fuel Use 1.09%    Signature 150    Exp 2%
Fuel Capacity 250,000 Litres    Range 121.4 billion km   (637 days at full power)

CIWS-120 (2x4)    Range 1000 km     TS: 12000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit
25s Size 3 Missile Launcher (5)    Missile Size 3    Rate of Fire 25
"Fly Master-3" Missile Fire Control FC39-R60 (50%) (5)     Range 39.0m km    Resolution 60
"Fly-3" Size 3 Anti-ship Missile (65)  Speed: 12,000 km/s   End: 44.5m    Range: 32.1m km   WH: 5    Size: 3    TH: 96/57/28

Active Search Sensor MR13-R1 (50%) (1)     GPS 168     Range 13.4m km    Resolution 1
Active Search Sensor MR103-R65 (70%) (1)     GPS 10400     Range 103.2m km    Resolution 65

ECM 10

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

DAC for this ship is mostly engines, so I hope it will remain afloat for uite some time, and will even be able to withstand quite some punishment from meson weapon.
I included ECM and CIWS just in case I will have to fight someone with missiles.
This ship is going to lead the vanguard of a formation, atracting enemy.

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Illustrious class Missile Boat    4,500 tons     70 Crew     479.33 BP      TCS 90  TH 150  EM 0
1666 km/s     Armour 3-24     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 4     PPV 3
Maint Life 5.33 Years     MSP 266    AFR 40%    IFR 0.6%    1YR 16    5YR 235    Max Repair 200 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 30 months    Spare Berths 0   
Magazine 39   

"Marko Polo" 150 EP Commercial Ion Drive (1)    Power 150    Fuel Use 1.09%    Signature 150    Exp 2%
Fuel Capacity 25,000 Litres    Range 91.7 billion km   (637 days at full power)

25s Size 3 Missile Launcher (1)    Missile Size 3    Rate of Fire 25
"Fly Master-3" Missile Fire Control FC39-R60 (50%) (1)     Range 39.0m km    Resolution 60
"Fly-3" Size 3 Anti-ship Missile (13)  Speed: 12,000 km/s   End: 44.5m    Range: 32.1m km   WH: 5    Size: 3    TH: 96/57/28

Active Search Sensor MR103-R65 (70%) (1)     GPS 10400     Range 103.2m km    Resolution 65

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

This is a main fleet boat, that will be deployed in large packs, following "Agincourt-2". It has reduced size to be easily thrown in through jump point, if needed.


What do you guys think? will it work? should I start serial build of these vessels?

[Icecoon]

Edit:
A. What is the average speed of the enemy? You will have to be faster than the enemy beam vessels for you to fight effectively.
B. Why did you choose commercial engines for your naval vessels? Military engines are faster and a lot lighter, but they eat more fuel.

[telegraph (OP)]

A: it was in another game, but if I remember correct they were way faster. something about 4-8k. I think they were spoiler insects, but I have never hit one (because I had no armed ships) to confirm.
B: My economy does not have the capasity to buy fuel from civilians, so I do not invest into fuel harvesters just yet. I have just begun the deep space exploration, so I do not know yet how much fuel can I expect to have.
So I decided to use cheap, economical "Marco Polo" drives, with maximum size. They provide a lot of HTK this way and allows to cut on oil bills.
My previous encounter resulted in rather swift defeat: The aliens destroyed my scout ship, then they rushed directly through the jump point, to my Mars colony, and to my Earth homeworld, dropping invasion force. This led me to a conclusion that if I will meet them close again - running around will not do. I have to put up a fight and overwhelm them with firepower, in this case by a big nasty bunch of missiles.

[Icecoon]

Yes, but if you move faster than the chance for them to hit you will be reduced.

And you have only 5 missile launcher for a 34k ton ship. I'd install five more.

For instance in my game i have:
1. 7600t destroyer with a speed of 3000km/s and 12 size 3 launchers.
2. A bunch of 500t fighters with 3 launchers of the same size.
3. Some fighter-scouts with 5 size 1 launchers and active sensors armed with strength 2 missiles against enemy fighters.

Hope this helped.

[telegraph (OP)]

Do I have enough missiles capacity in Agincourt-2 magazines? I could resupply and rotate the Illustrous boats, but it could be hard to rotate vanguard ship out of combat.

[Icecoon]

You can add more, but that will slow her down even more.
More on speed:
In the early phases the ideal speed is around 3000-3500Km/s with ion engines. With around 500,000l of fuel your ships should cruise on max speed for around 120 days, what is good enough for a ship spending 2/3 of time sitting around a planet.

[SteelChicken]

I generally don't even leave my home system until I have MPD technology and decent weaponry.  We live in a dangerous neighborhood and all.   Honestly, I think if you run into those spoilers with those ships, you are going to get creamed.   Too slow, not enough firepower.   Even with a fleet of those missile ships needed to defeat the smaller craft, you wont be able to touch their large mother ship.  The only way to take that down is with a single, massive salvo of missiles, or, smaller ships with long range beam weaponry. 

Given that it sounds like you have economic and resource issues as well? I say spend time developing an economy, higher tech and a manufacturing base.  THEN go looking for trouble.

[telegraph (OP)]

I thought about this. However tempting it might be to lock myself in Sol and build credit-rich economy with thousands of labs, it somehow feels plain wrong. What fun will it be to kill everyone with just a top-tech death star?  (and AFAIK there is a tech cap in this game, as seen in "techtree" in Academy)

I guess it will be more fun to try to win with numbers, where tech levels are insufficient, to win in firepower, where speed is lacking... Otherwise I could have started with millions of RP from the begining and SM-research everything and Fast-OOB my whole fleet.

Anyway, SteelChicken, do you think it is at all possible to design something viable on my tech level with kinetic weapons?

[SteelChicken]

I thought about this. However tempting it might be to lock myself in Sol and build credit-rich economy with thousands of labs, it somehow feels plain wrong. What fun will it be to kill everyone with just a top-tech death star?  (and AFAIK there is a tech cap in this game, as seen in "techtree" in Academy)

I guess it will be more fun to try to win with numbers, where tech levels are insufficient, to win in firepower, where speed is lacking... Otherwise I could have started with millions of RP from the begining and SM-research everything and Fast-OOB my whole fleet.

Anyway, SteelChicken, do you think it is at all possible to design something viable on my tech level with kinetic weapons?

Why does it have to be so black and white? Try not to think so binary.  I generally wait until I'm TL2.5/MPD propulsion or so.  You don't need the top techs, but if you go out there with chariots and archers, you are gonna get worked.

I dont use railguns much, I find them not to be worth the trouble, fun to roleplay though and decent at high tech levels.   Missiles are fine, if you have enough of them and your ships can move at a decent speed.   I also use laser tech.

At a minimum, you are going to need a higher level of missile tech and faster ships.

[Jumpp]

Their meson-armed FACs are doing, what, 10,000 kps?  Your Fly-3 won't often hit them.

Since you know something about who you're going to be fighting, you should tune your missile designs for them.  For instance, not long ago I fought some guys who employed carriers at 1,200 kps and strike craft at 10,000 kps.  I designed a "Harpoon" missile with a range of about 30m km, and speed and agility such that it had a 75% chance to hit a target at 1,200 kps.  Then I made a "Sparrow" missile with a range of about 10m km, and speed and agility to have 75% vs 10,000 kps.  Within those constraints, I gave them the biggest warheads they could manage.

(75% is a good target because a properly-trained crew will get a bonus that brings that up to around 100%)

In my first engagement with them, I had missiles tuned for targets doing 5,000 kps.  Accuracy was poor on the FACs, and agility was wasted on the carriers.  Armed with these new models, I stomped them.

Also: I tuned my electronics to match them.  I carried search radars for exactly the size of their FACs so that I could engage them at the extreme limit of my Sparrow range.  It's very inexpensive and fast to design and install new sensors.

[telegraph (OP)]

I think I got your message. I should not prepare for a shperical horse in a vacuum. Perhaps I will be better off building a bunch of deep space probes with large passive sensors and enough endurance to go far away. This way I will at least know who I need to fear and where they are.

A pity I cannot mount grav sensors on missiles.

[Andrew]

Just some thoughts
1) Your missiles need to be faster , cut the range down and the warhead down to 4 , then improve the speed and agility to give you a decent hit chance against ships going 10k
2) Optimise your sensors , you Need R-16 -20 to track these enemies. Your sensors are wither to high or to low resolution. The R1 sensor is pointless as you have no missile defenses
3) Your Active sensors are protected against microwave weapons, never seen anyone use them ever.
4) You have 5 FC for 5 Missile tubes, it will take several missiles to kill a target , a batter ration would be 1 FC for 3-6 missile launchers
5) Your ships have a range which is too large, use the space saved for more magazines or Launchers
6) More speed would be nice but it's not critical the targets will be faster anyway so you need missiles more than speed

[DTF]

How about going away from the BIG ships and moving towards smaller, faster crafts.
As SteelChicken wrote, either big salvos of missiles or beam ships.

If you build a small vessel that both outranges and outruns the enemy with their mesons, they wont be able to touch you at all. 

This ship for example can fire away at the enemy without ever getting into danger itself.  Note that this is just a design I put together rather quickly; it can easily be improved further - or downgraded a bit if your beam tech isnt up to it at the moment. 
Even a crappy 10cm laser is enough to kill the enemy's fast FACs - given it has enough range.  With the FACs out of the equasion you can have your way with the mothership/carrier any way you want (if you can beat its shield regeneration). 

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New Class class Cruiser    2,000 tons     70 Crew     520.9 BP      TCS 40  TH 315  EM 0
10500 km/s     Armour 1-14     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 4
Maint Life 3.37 Years     MSP 163    AFR 32%    IFR 0.4%    1YR 22    5YR 327    Max Repair 154 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Spare Berths 2   

Military ID-105 x1.75 Drive (4)    Power 105    Fuel Use 269.41%    Signature 78.75    Exp 17%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres    Range 3.3 billion km   (3 days at full power)

15cm C3 Ultraviolet Laser (1)    Range 240,000km     TS: 10500 km/s     Power 6-3     RM 4    ROF 10        6 6 6 6 4 4 3 3 2 2
Laser Fire Control S08 128-8000 (1)    Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 8000 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposesI employed similiar ships against the enemy I assume you are talking about and other than having to click through lot of time increments, it was a very relaxing fight.  I stationed these ships on (VERY SLOW due to low tech level) carriers / fighter bases and had those being tugged to the system the enemy was in.  Launch the ships and head through the jumppoint and unless the system is really big, 3. 3 bkm are plenty of range.  Just make sure you train them fully before you send them in - or you will get a nasty suprise when you are fighting just outside enemy's range and then decide to give a different move order.

In general, though: you should invest in proper military engines for your vessels.  Having good fuel % on a patrol craft is a good idea, having it on something that is designed for actual, proper fighting is not.  If you are concerned about running out of fuel, only use the main strike force if there's something to kill.  They dont need fuel when they are orbiting your homeworld looking all shiny and mighty.

Your missiles have very short range - which isnt an issue if you have the speed to close with the enemy. 
Or vice versa: low ship speed but huge firing range is still okay.  But having both low speed and short range will doom your ships.
You will meet enemies with missile ranges of about ~130mkm.  Have fun running after them to get into range with your ships.
If you do not have the tech to design a similiar missile with more range, think about using FACs or fighters (i. e.  smaller, faster crafts with less individual armament but equal total armament) to carry the missile into range. 

Your sensors will not help you much in a fight against fast FACs.  Assume the enemy is using a 800t attack craft capable of 10000km/s.
The 103ish/R65 sensor will detect this ship at ~6. 25 mkm (total sensor range / [resolution tonnage /target tonnage]^2 ): that's only 10 minutes away for something moving at 10000km/s!
The Res1 sensor, of course, detects the ship at 13. 4mkm (~20mins away).  Neither of them can make use of the 44 mkm range of your missile! Your firecontrol shortens the range at which you can engage even further! On top of that, the enemy is likely to use ECM -> even less range. 

In summary I'd say:
- faster ships with higher fuel burn (you won't be sending them around much anyway) => design a new engine with a power modifier >1. 00 (ship i posted uses 1. 75)
- higher ranged missiles or faster missiles carried by fighters
- more fine tuned sensors/FC => spare the RP to design a sensor tailored to detect FACs at missile range.
- less FCs
- more missile launchers
- less deployment time
- more ammo capacity (either by on-board magazines or colliers)

[telegraph (OP)]

How about this design then?

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Vanguard class Gunboat    10,500 tons     254 Crew     1934.6 BP      TCS 210  TH 2100  EM 0
10000 km/s     Armour 1-42     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 5     PPV 8
Maint Life 1.1 Years     MSP 576    AFR 176%    IFR 2.4%    1YR 480    5YR 7201    Max Repair 525 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 1.4 months    Spare Berths 0   

"Pyre" 1050 EP Ion Drive (2)    Power 1050    Fuel Use 141.8%    Signature 1050    Exp 17%
Fuel Capacity 3,500,000 Litres    Range 42.3 billion km   (48 days at full power)

25cm Railgun V4/C4 (1x4)    Range 200,000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 15-4     RM 4    ROF 20        5 5 5 5 4 3 2 2 2 2
Fire Control S12 128-12000 (1)    Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 12000 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor Technology PB-1 (2)     Total Power Output 4.5    Armour 0    Exp 5%

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes


[Erik L]

How about this design then?

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Vanguard class Gunboat    10,500 tons     254 Crew     1934.6 BP      TCS 210  TH 2100  EM 0
10000 km/s     Armour 1-42     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 5     PPV 8
Maint Life 1.1 Years     MSP 576    AFR 176%    IFR 2.4%    1YR 480    5YR 7201    Max Repair 525 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 1.4 months    Spare Berths 0   

"Pyre" 1050 EP Ion Drive (2)    Power 1050    Fuel Use 141.8%    Signature 1050    Exp 17%
Fuel Capacity 3,500,000 Litres    Range 42.3 billion km   (48 days at full power)

25cm Railgun V4/C4 (1x4)    Range 200,000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 15-4     RM 4    ROF 20        5 5 5 5 4 3 2 2 2 2
Fire Control S12 128-12000 (1)    Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 12000 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor Technology PB-1 (2)     Total Power Output 4.5    Armour 0    Exp 5%

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes


You do know that unless you are chasing something down, you'll get 1 shot before they are on top of you.

If you are fighting the swarm the best defence is usually long range, fast missiles. A lot of long range, fast missiles. 20-30 per salvo per target. You should be able to design a missile that goes 15k or so.