Author Topic: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions  (Read 351545 times)

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Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1560 on: November 25, 2019, 01:52:32 AM »
I was thinking about the crew system and there are a few things that always bother me about this and that was that crew basically are immortal... crew production are completely linear and make no real sense.

I think crew production should be about skill and expected service time, so each academy would instead be able to support a number of crew in your fleet rather than producing a certain number of crew every month. They should work more like your officers as they will retire at some time in the future.

This would make crew more of a strategic resource just like in reality and not something you can just replace and have a huge ready pool of if you are at or near your capacity.

If you have already used up the available pool the only way to get more is to build more Academies and not just wait to get more. If your ships are destroyed and the crew dies there will be a significant time before you manage to acquire more crew.

You could also tie max deployment rate of ships to crew service length. If you deploy a ship that has a higher deployment range than the service length of your average crew you have to provide more living space or perhaps add some other extra cost for those ships to compensate.

You could also tie it into fleet readiness levels such as crew training, as ships abstractly receive new crew over time then fleet training should drop off as time goes by if you don't periodically perform fleet training.

Your race will then determine how many crew can be trained from each academy based on the skill level, the same as now. Service length should be a variable setting and tie into the overall pool size and cost of the crew. Even crew that you are not using should cost wealth, so just tax the economy of the total crew pool with a certain type of wealth cost every month. Even if they are not assigned they need to be constantly trained and ready to be deployed if they aren't not already.

This would be an abstract way of managing replacement and retirement of crew over time, something I think the game lacks.

Military ships should require military grade personnel or suffer some horrendous penalties in terms of skill, moral and much lower deployment times than normal. The risk of something breaking on a ship with drafted untrained personnel should be significantly higher too.
 
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Offline Father Tim

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1561 on: November 25, 2019, 05:12:53 AM »
While it makes sense to me that crew should eventually 'age out' of the pool, instead of accumulating endlessly unless lost with ship destruction, I am highly nervous about the mechanism employed to do it.  If it turned out that building the size of navy I want to build, featuring the types of ships I want to use, meant that my empire needed sixty extra Academies on every major colony, I would be pissed.  In the fiction of my mind I expect certain ratios of installations.  Varying wildly from that harms my believability.

But my main concern is with what I consider the worst bug in all of Aurora.  Since version 2 or so officer promotion has included the 'up-or-out' philosophy of the modern U.S. military.  As a result, literally every single one of my conventional starts has followed roughly the same path; by the time my empire has researched the necessary jump point theory, grav sensors, jump engine techs (& an actual functioning jump engine design) and constructs its first survey ships, 90% of officers in the fleet have been without an assignment for two-to-three tour lengths and are "deemed surplus to requirements and released from the service."

I fear the same thing happening with crews.  I want the problem solved before giving C# Aurora the ability to fire any more of my personnel.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1562 on: November 25, 2019, 05:16:43 AM »
I was thinking about the crew system and there are a few things that always bother me about this and that was that crew basically are immortal... crew production are completely linear and make no real sense.

I think crew production should be about skill and expected service time, so each academy would instead be able to support a number of crew in your fleet rather than producing a certain number of crew every month. They should work more like your officers as they will retire at some time in the future.

This would make crew more of a strategic resource just like in reality and not something you can just replace and have a huge ready pool of if you are at or near your capacity.

If you have already used up the available pool the only way to get more is to build more Academies and not just wait to get more. If your ships are destroyed and the crew dies there will be a significant time before you manage to acquire more crew.

You could also tie max deployment rate of ships to crew service length. If you deploy a ship that has a higher deployment range than the service length of your average crew you have to provide more living space or perhaps add some other extra cost for those ships to compensate.

You could also tie it into fleet readiness levels such as crew training, as ships abstractly receive new crew over time then fleet training should drop off as time goes by if you don't periodically perform fleet training.

Your race will then determine how many crew can be trained from each academy based on the skill level, the same as now. Service length should be a variable setting and tie into the overall pool size and cost of the crew. Even crew that you are not using should cost wealth, so just tax the economy of the total crew pool with a certain type of wealth cost every month. Even if they are not assigned they need to be constantly trained and ready to be deployed if they aren't not already.

This would be an abstract way of managing replacement and retirement of crew over time, something I think the game lacks.

Military ships should require military grade personnel or suffer some horrendous penalties in terms of skill, moral and much lower deployment times than normal. The risk of something breaking on a ship with drafted untrained personnel should be significantly higher too.

Very interesting concept.

I watched 'The Cruel Sea' last night (excellent 1953 B&W film - recommended viewing). I have a seen it several times over the years but hadn't watched it for a while. It starts with the newly-built Flower class corvette (escort vessel of about 1000 tons) Compass Rose and her newly trained crew in 1939 as they embark on the Battle of the Atlantic. The captain is from the merchant navy, the other officers have a few weeks training and most of the crew have never been to sea before.

The concept of gearing up for war and turning civilians into professional navy officers and crew is something that would be interesting to simulate in more depth than the current mechanics. I'll give it some thought.
 
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Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1563 on: November 25, 2019, 05:18:44 AM »
But my main concern is with what I consider the worst bug in all of Aurora.  Since version 2 or so officer promotion has included the 'up-or-out' philosophy of the modern U.S. military.  As a result, literally every single one of my conventional starts has followed roughly the same path; by the time my empire has researched the necessary jump point theory, grav sensors, jump engine techs (& an actual functioning jump engine design) and constructs its first survey ships, 90% of officers in the fleet have been without an assignment for two-to-three tour lengths and are "deemed surplus to requirements and released from the service."

I fear the same thing happening with crews.  I want the problem solved before giving C# Aurora the ability to fire any more of my personnel.

This has been removed from C# Aurora and there is a new promotions and retirement system:

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg104038#msg104038

 

Offline Tikigod

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1564 on: November 25, 2019, 05:57:09 AM »
I was thinking about the crew system and there are a few things that always bother me about this and that was that crew basically are immortal... crew production are completely linear and make no real sense.

I think crew production should be about skill and expected service time, so each academy would instead be able to support a number of crew in your fleet rather than producing a certain number of crew every month. They should work more like your officers as they will retire at some time in the future.

This would make crew more of a strategic resource just like in reality and not something you can just replace and have a huge ready pool of if you are at or near your capacity.

If you have already used up the available pool the only way to get more is to build more Academies and not just wait to get more. If your ships are destroyed and the crew dies there will be a significant time before you manage to acquire more crew.

You could also tie max deployment rate of ships to crew service length. If you deploy a ship that has a higher deployment range than the service length of your average crew you have to provide more living space or perhaps add some other extra cost for those ships to compensate.

You could also tie it into fleet readiness levels such as crew training, as ships abstractly receive new crew over time then fleet training should drop off as time goes by if you don't periodically perform fleet training.

Your race will then determine how many crew can be trained from each academy based on the skill level, the same as now. Service length should be a variable setting and tie into the overall pool size and cost of the crew. Even crew that you are not using should cost wealth, so just tax the economy of the total crew pool with a certain type of wealth cost every month. Even if they are not assigned they need to be constantly trained and ready to be deployed if they aren't not already.

This would be an abstract way of managing replacement and retirement of crew over time, something I think the game lacks.

Military ships should require military grade personnel or suffer some horrendous penalties in terms of skill, moral and much lower deployment times than normal. The risk of something breaking on a ship with drafted untrained personnel should be significantly higher too.

Very interesting concept.

I watched 'The Cruel Sea' last night (excellent 1953 B&W film - recommended viewing). I have a seen it several times over the years but hadn't watched it for a while. It starts with the newly-built Flower class corvette (escort vessel of about 1000 tons) Compass Rose and her newly trained crew in 1939 as they embark on the Battle of the Atlantic. The captain is from the merchant navy, the other officers have a few weeks training and most of the crew have never been to sea before.

The concept of gearing up for war and turning civilians into professional navy officers and crew is something that would be interesting to simulate in more depth than the current mechanics. I'll give it some thought.

All for that kind of thing providing it doesn't impact the freedom to produce ships, see how they work out and potentially having to abandon them or see them destroyed by external forces due to designs not performing quite as intended (Or from design errors).

Experimenting with designs to see what works and coming up with interesting compositions is quite a strong draw point for me with Aurora, and general crew with any degree of competence for ships being turned into some kind of consumable resource would probably dampen the creation side of things and encourage the recycling of the same tried and true designs over and over every campaign rather than risk being faced with not having enough crew to field ships if you suddenly need them without just sitting skipping forward months/years of time.
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Offline Tikigod

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1565 on: November 25, 2019, 06:00:14 AM »
No.

Cloaking technology is something that is currently space only. Hiding things on planet is currently solely the province of the Fortification mechanic IIRC.

Would make for a pretty interesting new direction for the old underground excavation concept that I think has been replaced with something else in C#.

Reintroduce underground excavation as a kind of passive thermal signature reduction to all planet based activity going on there if there has been construction effort put into the excavation of space below the surface.

Dummy example with placeholder figures would be something like 10% of excavation total would translate into how many 'constructions' would have their thermal signature from space reduced. So 100 excavation construction jobs would result in 10 constructions being technically 'subterranean' getting a 20% thermal contribution reduction. A single excavation construction job would probably require a fair bit of CP though, along with some base TN material cost perhaps similar to the cost of infrastructure.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2019, 06:06:02 AM by Tikigod »
The popular stereotype of the researcher is that of a skeptic and a pessimist.  Nothing could be further from the truth! Scientists must be optimists at heart, in order to block out the incessant chorus of those who say "It cannot be done. "

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Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1566 on: November 25, 2019, 06:48:26 AM »
All for that kind of thing providing it doesn't impact the freedom to produce ships, see how they work out and potentially having to abandon them or see them destroyed by external forces due to designs not performing quite as intended (Or from design errors).

Experimenting with designs to see what works and coming up with interesting compositions is quite a strong draw point for me with Aurora, and general crew with any degree of competence for ships being turned into some kind of consumable resource would probably dampen the creation side of things and encourage the recycling of the same tried and true designs over and over every campaign rather than risk being faced with not having enough crew to field ships if you suddenly need them without just sitting skipping forward months/years of time.

At this point, I am just thinking about the concept. I'm a long way from designing mechanics. Any significant crew-related change would most likely be optional anyway - like maintenance or inexperienced crew,
 

Offline vorpal+5

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1567 on: November 25, 2019, 07:56:31 AM »
But my main concern is with what I consider the worst bug in all of Aurora.  Since version 2 or so officer promotion has included the 'up-or-out' philosophy of the modern U.S. military.  As a result, literally every single one of my conventional starts has followed roughly the same path; by the time my empire has researched the necessary jump point theory, grav sensors, jump engine techs (& an actual functioning jump engine design) and constructs its first survey ships, 90% of officers in the fleet have been without an assignment for two-to-three tour lengths and are "deemed surplus to requirements and released from the service."

I fear the same thing happening with crews.  I want the problem solved before giving C# Aurora the ability to fire any more of my personnel.

This has been removed from C# Aurora and there is a new promotions and retirement system:

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg104038#msg104038

Thanks <insert random entity name here, but not hastur the unspeakable that aaaahhrgghhrheee> !!

Does it means I can at last stop producing useless unarmed fighters so my precious officers are not rotated out?  ;D
 

Offline Hazard

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1568 on: November 25, 2019, 08:14:43 AM »
I fear the same thing happening with crews.  I want the problem solved before giving C# Aurora the ability to fire any more of my personnel.

Keep in mind that the concept of inexperienced crews exists for a reason. Yes, you generally want properly trained crew on your ships, but if the situation is bad enough or a given ship doesn't need a certain grade of crew a government can just toss in untrained crew into positions that don't need that training, or there's just no trained personnel to fill it.

All for that kind of thing providing it doesn't impact the freedom to produce ships, see how they work out and potentially having to abandon them or see them destroyed by external forces due to designs not performing quite as intended (Or from design errors).

Experimenting with designs to see what works and coming up with interesting compositions is quite a strong draw point for me with Aurora, and general crew with any degree of competence for ships being turned into some kind of consumable resource would probably dampen the creation side of things and encourage the recycling of the same tried and true designs over and over every campaign rather than risk being faced with not having enough crew to field ships if you suddenly need them without just sitting skipping forward months/years of time.

It'd work fine as a pool system where a given percentage of crew retires each year and a given number of new crew enter from the academies each year. At that point you can define 'total size of the trained crew pool', 'total number of assigned crew' and 'available crew for new assignment'.

Classes with the 'conscript crew' modifier would use a modified system that only checks the total size of the 'assigned conscript crew' pool and drop a (notably higher) percentage from the pool before making up the difference with new untrained crew.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1569 on: November 25, 2019, 08:39:21 AM »
While it makes sense to me that crew should eventually 'age out' of the pool, instead of accumulating endlessly unless lost with ship destruction, I am highly nervous about the mechanism employed to do it.  If it turned out that building the size of navy I want to build, featuring the types of ships I want to use, meant that my empire needed sixty extra Academies on every major colony, I would be pissed.  In the fiction of my mind I expect certain ratios of installations.  Varying wildly from that harms my believability.

But my main concern is with what I consider the worst bug in all of Aurora.  Since version 2 or so officer promotion has included the 'up-or-out' philosophy of the modern U.S. military.  As a result, literally every single one of my conventional starts has followed roughly the same path; by the time my empire has researched the necessary jump point theory, grav sensors, jump engine techs (& an actual functioning jump engine design) and constructs its first survey ships, 90% of officers in the fleet have been without an assignment for two-to-three tour lengths and are "deemed surplus to requirements and released from the service."

I fear the same thing happening with crews.  I want the problem solved before giving C# Aurora the ability to fire any more of my personnel.

This would not happen, the amount of crew from each academy stays the same after the academy reached its limit in graduating crewmen.

Lets say each Academy allow 1000 crew (based on service length)...

When it is built it will add 30 new crew per month until it supplied 1000. after witch it is abstracted that it is able to train as many new crew as are leaving the service after the service time is finished.

If you have a ship that carry 300 crew that is destroyed and they alll die the pool now suddenly is only 700 and you have to wait for 30 month for the pool to recover.

Service length could also be extended during wartime, but the cost of service time should not be a linear cost. So a service time of 12 month might cost you say 0.1 wealth per crew while 24 month service time might cost you 0.3 wealth per crew. Service time could then be increased during wartime for a considerable cost and would also be a way to cover some losses or add to the pool for new ships produced faster than expected without having to add more academies.

If you increase the service length you don't just get more crew though, you just increase the pool limit and gradually add more crew over time until the limit is reached. If you lower the service time though you will pretty much immediately retire allot of crew as their service time is up... or you can do the same procedure and imagine everyone serve their time but are not replaced afterwards.

The number of graduates per month and academy would also depend on their skill level. Low skill give you more graduates per academy per month thus also a higher pool limit, while high skill require more time and effort and give you less per month and thus a smaller total pool size... pretty similar to now.

It would be a really simple but interesting system to work from.

So the fear that crew would disappear would only happen if you loos academies, from say a war. But you would not loose them immediately, they wold then be lost in the same pace you would otherwise have gained them, but you could mos likely offset this by raising the service length and pay more for them for a while from your other academies (unless all the academies are in one place).

If the crew pool start to dip below the totally required crew for your ship then ships would start to get totally untrained crew and the skill level of the crews on all your ships would start to drop considerably until you fix the situation.

It is a really simple and abstract way of dealing with a more realistic crew system that does not result you needing to keep track of crews individually. You just tie the general pool with the ship and their individual training and skill depend on the skill level of new crew.

One interesting thing you also could do is tie it into the deployment time of ships. As if you give ships a very long deployment time you will have to accommodate for the fact that the crew is especially picked and have special needs. Thus you could incur some penalties such as wealth cost of the crew of that ship being much higher than otherwise. This means you are not going to give ships a deployment time higher than regular service length unless it is really necessary.

This also would make saving crew a pretty important thing to do if at all possible, as saving them will make sure they can join a new ship as the pool size don't go down.

You probably also would want to separate crew training from the Academy into its own building, perhaps also give some technology that can increase the efficiency and pool size of these buildings over time.

If you want crew to be an interesting resource something like this could add to the game without needing any micromanagement.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2019, 09:17:23 AM by Jorgen_CAB »
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1570 on: November 25, 2019, 08:43:57 AM »
I was thinking about the crew system and there are a few things that always bother me about this and that was that crew basically are immortal... crew production are completely linear and make no real sense.

I think crew production should be about skill and expected service time, so each academy would instead be able to support a number of crew in your fleet rather than producing a certain number of crew every month. They should work more like your officers as they will retire at some time in the future.

This would make crew more of a strategic resource just like in reality and not something you can just replace and have a huge ready pool of if you are at or near your capacity.

If you have already used up the available pool the only way to get more is to build more Academies and not just wait to get more. If your ships are destroyed and the crew dies there will be a significant time before you manage to acquire more crew.

You could also tie max deployment rate of ships to crew service length. If you deploy a ship that has a higher deployment range than the service length of your average crew you have to provide more living space or perhaps add some other extra cost for those ships to compensate.

You could also tie it into fleet readiness levels such as crew training, as ships abstractly receive new crew over time then fleet training should drop off as time goes by if you don't periodically perform fleet training.

Your race will then determine how many crew can be trained from each academy based on the skill level, the same as now. Service length should be a variable setting and tie into the overall pool size and cost of the crew. Even crew that you are not using should cost wealth, so just tax the economy of the total crew pool with a certain type of wealth cost every month. Even if they are not assigned they need to be constantly trained and ready to be deployed if they aren't not already.

This would be an abstract way of managing replacement and retirement of crew over time, something I think the game lacks.

Military ships should require military grade personnel or suffer some horrendous penalties in terms of skill, moral and much lower deployment times than normal. The risk of something breaking on a ship with drafted untrained personnel should be significantly higher too.

Very interesting concept.

I watched 'The Cruel Sea' last night (excellent 1953 B&W film - recommended viewing). I have a seen it several times over the years but hadn't watched it for a while. It starts with the newly-built Flower class corvette (escort vessel of about 1000 tons) Compass Rose and her newly trained crew in 1939 as they embark on the Battle of the Atlantic. The captain is from the merchant navy, the other officers have a few weeks training and most of the crew have never been to sea before.

The concept of gearing up for war and turning civilians into professional navy officers and crew is something that would be interesting to simulate in more depth than the current mechanics. I'll give it some thought.

All for that kind of thing providing it doesn't impact the freedom to produce ships, see how they work out and potentially having to abandon them or see them destroyed by external forces due to designs not performing quite as intended (Or from design errors).

Experimenting with designs to see what works and coming up with interesting compositions is quite a strong draw point for me with Aurora, and general crew with any degree of competence for ships being turned into some kind of consumable resource would probably dampen the creation side of things and encourage the recycling of the same tried and true designs over and over every campaign rather than risk being faced with not having enough crew to field ships if you suddenly need them without just sitting skipping forward months/years of time.

You could always designate a design to use untrained crew and not draw from the professional pool of crew just like today. Then wait for that crew to acquire skill on their own. Alternatively you could have the skill level of professional crew low so the pool size are pretty high if you want a large and cheap pool OR you increase the service time at the expense of wealth costs.

Also, when you retire a ship they go back into the pool, so no harm done. You could also potentially track the average skill of the none assigned crew so this goes up if you retire a ship full of highly skilled crew, this skill are then eroded back to normal level after some time depending on the service length of your crew pool. So you might "train" the pool in cheap ships and retire them to the pool to get better average crew, but it will still cost you considerable resources and effort to do so and would not be entirely unrealistic to do so either. Many large navies keep older ships around for this very purpose in real life.

There should be many ways to deal with the issue though.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2019, 09:05:56 AM by Jorgen_CAB »
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1571 on: November 25, 2019, 11:43:02 AM »
It is an interesting concept and something I would embrace on a Sol/Earth/Human start but its details need to be carefully thought through so that non-human/non-Earth games are not shafted. Does a Hive Mind bug race need military academies?
 

Offline MultiVitamin

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1572 on: November 25, 2019, 12:52:18 PM »
Just another aesthetic suggestion but would it be possible to let us change the name for Wealth at game creation, so that instead of working with Wealth, we work with Credits, USD, Euros, etc etc. Just another suggestion to give more immersion.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1573 on: November 25, 2019, 03:15:21 PM »
It is an interesting concept and something I would embrace on a Sol/Earth/Human start but its details need to be carefully thought through so that non-human/non-Earth games are not shafted. Does a Hive Mind bug race need military academies?

As Steve mentioned it would probably in that case be optional for that very reason. I feel the whole character system could be optional for hive type campaigns and you could just create leaders at positions at will but with much lower fixed values, including scientists.

On the other hand it is easy to role-play that academies are hatching facilities to breed certain type of hive members suitable for certain more complex and important tasks. Perhaps these creatures are more in tune with the warships biological hull and mere drones can't operate them as well. The service time are basically at which time these crew drones simply are worn out and tossed in the incinerator as they are spent and no longer useful in its task.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2019, 03:19:20 PM by Jorgen_CAB »
 
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Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1574 on: November 25, 2019, 04:13:49 PM »
Another thing I have pondered in Aurora C#... would it not be time to lift the restriction on minimum resolution of sensors at 1HS and allow from 1-20 MSP as well.

Given that you very well can build fighter craft that are very small it might be a good thing. Otherwise tiny little scout ships can become VERY difficult to find even with a dedicated RES 1 active sensor.

So a small craft with a 0.1 HS engine and and 0.3 sensor could probably be about 30-35t, this little craft would still be quite potent at detecting stuff but be very difficult to find in return given its size is so much smaller than the smallest possible resolution scanner in the game. And you might even make it even smaller.