Author Topic: C# Aurora Changes Discussion  (Read 441806 times)

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Offline Bremen

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1410 on: January 27, 2018, 12:22:21 AM »
I kind of like that Aurora doesn't worry about a deep political or economic model. Its focus is on other areas.
 

Offline QuakeIV

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1411 on: January 27, 2018, 04:59:27 AM »
I mean, I have never seen a particularly deep economic model thus far.  People just point to eve, wherein you shoot rocks and then queue production orders and trade on a global marketplace in ways unlike anything present in reality, then screech about how thats an awesome economy, despite the main driving force of said economy being e-peen lengthening conflicts rather than anything of substance.

Point is, its hardly like there are too many deep economy games.  I personally think there are approximately zero of them.
 

Offline Hazard

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1412 on: January 27, 2018, 05:45:48 AM »
Then you poorly understand the nature of an economy.

EVE's economy is pretty deep for a game. In reality the economy runs because people have a demand for their survival; most of the money made in the world goes towards food, shelter and the means to acquire food and shelter. EVE's different, because the players don't need food and shelter to survive, and the purpose of the game is to entertain.

And that's what EVE's economy revolves around, entertainment and the means to be entertained. And yes, that means you shoot big rocks in space, move the results to facilities to be processed, process those results to intermediate products, move those products to shipyards and then have those shipyards crank out ships by the dozens. And all of those things are often done by different people who determine their share of the wealth by demanding either part of the raw materials or a fungible good in exchange, to wit, money.

Many find that entertaining enough, and others then use those same ships to fight battles with either NPCs or with other players in e-peen lengthening conflicts. Because it's a game and that's what's amusing to the people participating in the economy.
 

Offline Person012345

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1413 on: January 27, 2018, 06:33:00 AM »
Yeah, just because the supply, demand and desired uses don't match real world norms doesn't mean the economy isn't realistic or functional. I won't make a comment on eve specifically because I don't know enough about how it works.

That being said, Eve isn't the same kind of game nor is the marketplace the same kind of economy that would be needed in this kind of game. The obvious example to point to as a template would be something like Victoria II, but that has a lot of problems.

Ultimately though I think an entire in depth economic and political system would be a massive amount of work and AI coding plus tons of balancing and my view is that in the long run the benefit doesn't outweigh the cost. Even if it's revisited later on it should probably remain relatively simplified and along the lines of the current implementation, but just expanded.
 

Offline waresky

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1414 on: January 27, 2018, 09:00:42 AM »
..omissis...
Ultimately though I think an entire in depth economic and political system would be a massive amount of work and AI coding plus tons of balancing and my view is that in the long run the benefit doesn't outweigh the cost. Even if it's revisited later on it should probably remain relatively simplified and along the lines of the current implementation, but just expanded.

This point of view IS aceptable. But TAX level (for Steve i mean) are so hard to implementing?
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1415 on: January 27, 2018, 12:54:23 PM »
For the kind of game that Aurora is I also think that the economy of the game can't be too complex nor can the social part of the game.

We can easily RP any social unrest we like so that is not a huge deal for me.

I do however think that the civilian economy could be expanded some and have a bigger impact on the overall economic growth than it does.

The game also assume that 100% of all taxes can be directly used by the state for military and colonial development which sort of feels weird. I often feel that I don't understand what Industry and Wealth generating buildings are suppose to be in terms of state or civilian. They seem to model mostly what is civilian enterprises, civilian part of the economy definitely have it as well.

I don't think any of this should be part of an initial release of C# Aurora but at some point a look on the overall economic model and population involvement in what the government does might be interesting.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 01:08:19 PM by Jorgen_CAB »
 

Offline Barkhorn

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1416 on: January 27, 2018, 03:01:09 PM »
We can easily RP any social unrest we like so that is not a huge deal for me.
We can easily RP terraforming too, but that got it's own mechanics.

I think the more things that the program can handle, i.e. things you don't need SM or player input to do, the better.

And for a game about running an interstellar empire, there's actually not very much empire-running to do.  Most of the game is just building things so you can build/destroy more things.
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1417 on: January 27, 2018, 03:19:01 PM »
Some basics could probably be fairly easy to add and not require a massive amount of balancing? Stuff like:

- 3 different tax levels on population ( trade-off vs unrest )
- 3 different tax levels on civilian shipping lines ( trade-off built in already since if you take more they grow less, for example 25/50/75% income taxed )
- Unemployment vs unrest ( large percentage unemployed = a bit more unrest )
- Shipping lines colony ships prioritize destinations based on job opportunities/space available/population tax levels

I think this would give you a bit more indirect control over flows of people and growth of shipping lines, and feel like your running an empire.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1418 on: January 27, 2018, 03:20:33 PM »
We can easily RP terraforming too, but that got it's own mechanics.

I think the more things that the program can handle, i.e. things you don't need SM or player input to do, the better.

And for a game about running an interstellar empire, there's actually not very much empire-running to do.  Most of the game is just building things so you can build/destroy more things.

Don't get me wrong... I would not mind seeing some more empire and social interaction into the game. I just think that each of these areas would need a vast amount of dedicated work and research into how it would function. So if it was ever done it should be the sole focus for a specific update of the game.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1419 on: January 27, 2018, 03:33:26 PM »
Some basics could probably be fairly easy to add and not require a massive amount of balancing? Stuff like:

- 3 different tax levels on population ( trade-off vs unrest )
- 3 different tax levels on civilian shipping lines ( trade-off built in already since if you take more they grow less, for example 25/50/75% income taxed )
- Unemployment vs unrest ( large percentage unemployed = a bit more unrest )
- Shipping lines colony ships prioritize destinations based on job opportunities/space available/population tax levels

I think this would give you a bit more indirect control over flows of people and growth of shipping lines, and feel like your running an empire.

Personally I don't like the taxing model most games are representing and especially not tying it to unrest.

Unrest should rather be tied into what taxes are spent on rather than the amount that is taxed while the amount of tax is affecting the purchasing power of the population (or in this case its economic growth). Part of the world who pay the highest taxes are the most content on them while those that pay much less are more up in the blue because they feel the money they do pay is wasted on stupid stuff or simply eroded by bureaucracy and/or corruption.

When I play Aurora I usually take these things into account and every bit of military spending (resources not going back into providing job for citizens) must be carefully planed for or people will try to replace the ruling government. Depending on the type of government some will have more of a leeway than others doing that. But this is only RP and have nothing to do with the actual mechanics as they are now.
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1420 on: January 27, 2018, 05:42:05 PM »
Unrest should rather be tied into what taxes are spent on rather than the amount that is taxed while the amount of tax is affecting the purchasing power of the population (or in this case its economic growth). Part of the world who pay the highest taxes are the most content on them while those that pay much less are more up in the blue because they feel the money they do pay is wasted on stupid stuff or simply eroded by bureaucracy and/or corruption.

When I play Aurora I usually take these things into account and every bit of military spending (resources not going back into providing job for citizens) must be carefully planed for or people will try to replace the ruling government. Depending on the type of government some will have more of a leeway than others doing that. But this is only RP and have nothing to do with the actual mechanics as they are now.

Yeah, and that might be fine for something to be added 2-3 years down the line together with a complete overhaul and complex supply-demand, civilian market and politics.

My suggestion was for a very very basic model that could be completed either now or quickly after first release of C# Aurora, and still be a decent improvement compared to the current nothing situation.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1421 on: January 27, 2018, 06:00:05 PM »
Yeah, and that might be fine for something to be added 2-3 years down the line together with a complete overhaul and complex supply-demand, civilian market and politics.

My suggestion was for a very very basic model that could be completed either now or quickly after first release of C# Aurora, and still be a decent improvement compared to the current nothing situation.

True... but sometimes it's also better to do nothing or do it properly. Depend on how many other things that could enjoy a "small" overhaul.

I suppose only Steve can answer what those priorities will be.

I would not be opposed to a small change either though.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 06:09:43 PM by Jorgen_CAB »
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1422 on: January 28, 2018, 02:53:26 AM »
For most games with tax rates, there's usually a no-brainer best tax rate for any given situation: as much as you can get away with without causing revolts or some other not-worth-it penalty.  So there's never any decision making. 

Bear in mind that 'wealth' doesn't necessarily mean taxes.  money is fake, after all.  the important part, societally, is workforce mobilization & allocation - and wealth can represent any means of doing that.

If there's one thing i'd like for wealth, it'd be a mechanic to reduce wealth stockpiling... either a straight up 'inflation penalty' that reduces your generation or stockpile, or an efficiency bonus that gives you a small boost while eating up wealth beyond a certain point (say, 2x gdp)


« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 02:55:46 AM by TheDeadlyShoe »
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1423 on: January 28, 2018, 03:47:14 AM »
For most games with tax rates, there's usually a no-brainer best tax rate for any given situation: as much as you can get away with without causing revolts or some other not-worth-it penalty.  So there's never any decision making. 

I don't really see how that can be used as an argument against something since exactly the same can be said for any other game element in Aurora 4x.

How much weapons should you have on your ship? As much as you can get away with...
How much research should you put into engines? As much as you can get away with...

If there is never any decision making in setting taxes and it's all no-brainer, then there isn't any in the rest of the game either IMO. It all depends on your viewpoint and goals with the game. All games will always have one "optimal" best / most efficient way to play them, but I don't think many of us enjoy playing Aurora 4X that way, so I don't think it would be a big risk.


Also keep in mind that the wealth is not going to have the same value for you in all situations. In some situations where your going negative it might be worth some temporary unrest that some extra soldiers moved home can handle, to break even until things stabilize, but if your running a big surplus and your soldiers are badly needed elsewhere the reverse might be true.
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1424 on: January 28, 2018, 04:27:45 AM »
There's other things you can do with your tonnage and research points.  You're always giving up something...This in stark contrast with taxes. There's nothing else you can do with spare 'tax rate'.  It is almost universally in games a single-dimensional mechanic that a governor ai can run better than a player unless its lobotomized.

Let's say that you put tax rates in.  More tax equals unrest. Okay, so you get ground units to reduce unrest.  So.... recruiting ground units now *increases* your income instead of lowering it? What?  That's...bad.  And 'martial law' is optimal play no matter how you're trying to RP?  It's nonsensical.  And we're not even talking about how ground units have nothing better to do 95% of the time. Also, to play optimally, now you need to adjust tax rates every time any factor that affects unrest changes, to get the most money.   O Joy.