Author Topic: Anti-Greenhouse gas  (Read 7939 times)

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Offline Haji (OP)

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Anti-Greenhouse gas
« on: April 17, 2012, 08:16:45 AM »
Greetings

It's not exactly a bug, but something I find somewhat irritating.  While there is maximum greenhouse factor, there is no minimum, which means, you can terraform any hot planet you like.  In fact, once (althought this was in 5. 5 not 5. 6, but I don't think this was changed) I managed to get Mercury to -20K.  Yes, I have frozen it below absolute zero.  By accident I should add, I forgot about my terraforming fleet there.

In gameplay terms this means, that, there are planets too cold for terraform (Titan for instance) but never too hot.  For that matter the "1% increase in solar output per year" distaster isn't really a disaster (unless you RP, which I did) becouse you can easily couter this via AGHG.

All in all I think there should be a limit to what Anti-Greenhouse Gas can do, similar to the cut off effect of Greenhouse Gas.  Personally I would make it so you can't lower a base temperature by more than half.

My apologies if this have been posted/discussed.  I did a quick and dirty search in this subforum, but I didn't see anything.
 

Offline Marthnn

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Re: Anti-Greenhouse gas
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2012, 09:22:17 AM »
Yes, it is too easy to cool a planet, and going below 0K is ridiculous.

But it should still be possible to drastically cool any planet. It basically means using reflectors or something similar in effect. Personally, I'd change that to some type of infrastructure dedicated to this. Right now, a race with a lower acceptable temperature has access to more potential ideal worlds, way too easily.
 

Offline Moonshadow101

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Re: Anti-Greenhouse gas
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2012, 09:41:32 AM »
As a rule, it does make some sense that too much energy is a much smaller problem than not enough. Blocking light is much easier than spinning it out of thin air. Still, good call, sub-absolute zero is a pretty weird bug.
 

Offline xeryon

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Re: Anti-Greenhouse gas
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2012, 09:45:44 AM »
I agree, heating a planet is much more difficult as you cannot readily increase the amount of solar energy a body is receiving.  Because of this there is only so much you can do.  You should be able to cool a planet to a vastly greater degree by either lowering atmospheric pressure or adding more reflective elements to the atmosphere.  If you wanted to destroy the habitability of the planet there really is no reason why you should not be able to make any body 0K (within limits due to proximity of the parent star and level of solar energy it is receiving)
 

Offline Haji (OP)

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Re: Anti-Greenhouse gas
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2012, 11:39:44 AM »
Quote from: xeryon link=topic=4823. msg48916#msg48916 date=1334673944
I agree, heating a planet is much more difficult as you cannot readily increase the amount of solar energy a body is receiving.   Because of this there is only so much you can do.   You should be able to cool a planet to a vastly greater degree by either lowering atmospheric pressure or adding more reflective elements to the atmosphere.   If you wanted to destroy the habitability of the planet there really is no reason why you should not be able to make any body 0K (within limits due to proximity of the parent star and level of solar energy it is receiving)

Yes and no.  Terraforming, as currently implemented, is simply manipulation of gases, nothing more.  The "reflectability" of a body is already managed by the albedo, which, I believe, cannot be changed.  As such, there is a limit to how "reflective" an atmosphere you can make using only common gases that could be used for planetary terraforming (nitrogen, oxygen, the things).

If we start thinking in terms of industrial terraforming (ie, using manufactured. . .  things) then it should work both ways.  Increase or decrease albedo to heat or cool the amosphere.  Just an example.

I'm not sure how many of you have read Mars Trilogy.  I hope you won't consider this a spoiler.

Still here? Ok.

The major theme of the books was terraforming Mars.  One of the things they did was to make enormous mirror that increased the amount of solar radiation on Mars to Earth levels.  Later it was used as a shade to cool Venus (althought it was supposed to take several hundred years and was never shown in the books).  Something similar is at works here.  If you argue, that cooling a planet is "easy" by application of industrial terraforming (I just can't imagine of any gas or combination of gases, that would be reflective enough to lower the temperature of Mercury to freezing point) then the same applications can be used (in somewhat diffrent form) to heat the planet.  Similar to the example from Mars Trilogy.

Of course this is all technobabble.  In gameplay terms I think it simply imbalances the game, screwing certain elements in favour of lower temperatures (for example, becouse of how easy it is to cool a planet, creating species capable of living in higher temperatures is pretty pointless.  Or the beforementioned case with cooling/heating of the Sun).

To be honest, for me the simplest, and satisfactory solution would be to implement the same kind of bottom line as with heating.  The preferred solution would be (in addition to the limit) to divide terraforming into two groups: atmospheric and industrial.  Atmospheric would be exactly the way it is, industrial would be much more expensive and would affect planetary albedo, allowing for the heating/cooling of a planet beyond the capabilities of "classical" terraforming.  For most planets, it would make no diffrence, you would just change the atmosphere the same way as now.  However, by changing albedo you could make other bodies terraformable, like Titan which is too cool right now, or Mercury which would be too hot if the limiting of anti-greenhouse effect would be implemented.
 

Offline ussugu

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Re: Anti-Greenhouse gas
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2012, 12:41:05 PM »
One point of note:  the dark side of Mercury can get down to -180° Celsius.   So, saying that Mercury is going to be difficult to cool because it is so close to the sun sorta gets refuted by that fact.   I am not saying that its proximity has NO bearing, I'm just saying that if there were a way to block the sunlight, the planet would actually cool down because it has almost no atmosphere to retain the heating from the sun.

This brings me to another thought: Mercury doesn't have an appreciable atmosphere because its gravity is too weak to keep the solar wind from blasting it away.   Given this, I wonder if a mechanic could be implemented in the game that terraformers would have to be kept on planet to maintain its atmosphere?  Have some sort of atmospheric loss due to realistic physics caused by the mass of a body and proximity to objects that might be capable of blasting away an atmosphere or stealing it by being more massive.

May be too much to even worry with. . . . .
 

Offline wedgebert

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Re: Anti-Greenhouse gas
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2012, 01:39:19 PM »
You know, I've always just been curious where the terraformers get (or place) the atmosphere. I can see tweaking CO2 or Oxygen levels with carbon sinks or technobabble versions. But where did it get the 3 ATM with of Argon I accidently selected?
 

Offline Moonshadow101

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Re: Anti-Greenhouse gas
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2012, 01:53:23 PM »
I've always assumed that it was locked in the ground, in mineral form or something.
 

Offline xeryon

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Re: Anti-Greenhouse gas
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2012, 01:56:11 PM »
I am not a materials scientist and do not have the specific answer off the top of my head.  I just recall reading about the existence of specific gases that could be released which have a higher reflectivity.  For that matter, water vapor is an interesting one.  It can be both a greenhouse gas as it traps heat, and in coalesced cloud cover it functions as an anti-greenhouse gas due to the white surface reflecting solar energy.  Increasing cloud cover over a broad region can lower temperatures and increasing humidity can not only raise perceived temps but actually increase heat retention.

There are so many possibilities.  wedgebert brings up a funny point though.  Where exactly is this stuff coming from?
 

Offline Steven Kodaly

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Re: Anti-Greenhouse gas
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2012, 02:00:18 PM »
Quote from: xeryon link=topic=4823. msg48929#msg48929 date=1334688971
wedgebert brings up a funny point though.   Where exactly is this stuff coming from?

It came from outer space!

More seriously, I vaguely recall Mr.  Walmsley remarking that the terraforming mechanics - and focus on atmospheric content - are simply an abstraction for gameplay convenience.
Charming, to the last.
 

Offline Arwyn

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Re: Anti-Greenhouse gas
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2012, 02:10:24 PM »
Assuming you have some of the "right stuff" in the atmosphere, you can manufacture it.

Argon is currently produced industrially via air separation from liquid air. It can also be produced from water ice, just takes longer. This same method is used from Oxygen, Nitrogen, and other inert gases.

So, in theory, your terraformers are "cracking" the existing atmosphere, or frozen elements to produce the gases. In situations where the atmosphere has none of the required elements, or doesn't exist, the gases could be produced from soils/metals or comets.

Argon and Nitrogen are incredibly common, and Oxygen is fairly common. So it wouldn't be a stretch to assume the materials are cheaply available in most systems via the asteroids or cometary halo. Obviously there is still the details of the AMOUNTS of material required. 3 ATM of Argon is a LOT of gas, and even frozen, it would take a lot of gas to produce that kind of pressure.

Still, you can argue that the "handwaivium" aspect of terraforming has some plausible basis in reality. :)
 

Offline Marthnn

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Re: Anti-Greenhouse gas
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2012, 04:04:51 PM »
Terraforming in TN Aurora is highly abstract and actually makes little sense. It doesn't annoy me, as long as its mechanics are balanced.

Sure, we could rethink the whole terraforming, based on known facts and taking into account atmosphere loss due to solar winds, interactions between gases (hellooo methane and oxygen!), quantity of gas needed to get 1 atm depending of the size of the body and gravity, the actual greenhouse effect of different gases varying, and so on and so forth.

Or we could rebalance the current mechanics a bit and call it a day. Just add a lower limit of about 0.3 to the Greenhouse factor.


Of course, thinking about all that stuff is interesting. If we can figure it all out with enough precision, reliable sources, in a way that could be programmed in, that would help Steve get it done. Then the mechanics will be so complex we won't be able to do anything by ourselves, and need an extensive excel spreadsheet to predict the outcome/feasability, or need Steve to add a solution in the game.
 

Offline schroeam

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Re: Anti-Greenhouse gas
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2012, 04:30:37 PM »
Terraforming in TN Aurora is highly abstract and actually makes little sense. It doesn't annoy me, as long as its mechanics are balanced.

Sure, we could rethink the whole terraforming, based on known facts and taking into account atmosphere loss due to solar winds, interactions between gases (hellooo methane and oxygen!), quantity of gas needed to get 1 atm depending of the size of the body and gravity, the actual greenhouse effect of different gases varying, and so on and so forth.

Or we could rebalance the current mechanics a bit and call it a day. Just add a lower limit of about 0.3 to the Greenhouse factor.


Of course, thinking about all that stuff is interesting. If we can figure it all out with enough precision, reliable sources, in a way that could be programmed in, that would help Steve get it done. Then the mechanics will be so complex we won't be able to do anything by ourselves, and need an extensive excel spreadsheet to predict the outcome/feasability, or need Steve to add a solution in the game.

I vote for K.I.S.S.

 

Offline ussugu

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Re: Anti-Greenhouse gas
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2012, 05:48:30 PM »
+1 for K. I. S. S.   I was just typing while my brain was wandering.
 

Offline wedgebert

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Re: Anti-Greenhouse gas
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2012, 08:09:45 PM »
K.I.S.S? In Aurora? Might as well ask Toady to stop calculating the damage done to dwarven toenails. :)

I vote for M.I.S.C (make it super complicated). I'd love to see things like orbital mirrors to increase temperature and sun shields to reduce it. Limited availablity of gasses (Mercury's likely not big on iodine) and possibly even requring a more realistic partial pressure system for atmospheres (50% of the atmosphere being CO2 would be deadly to humans regardless of the Oxygen content).