Author Topic: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions  (Read 350854 times)

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Offline QuakeIV

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #2160 on: April 05, 2020, 04:16:24 PM »
Would be kindof cool if we could build ship sized missiles.
 

Offline Erik L

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #2161 on: April 05, 2020, 07:01:12 PM »
Would be kindof cool if we could build ship sized missiles.

Pretty certain the larger missiles are at least fighter sized. Size 100 missile = 250 tons :)

Offline Hazard

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #2162 on: April 05, 2020, 09:29:40 PM »
To be honest that would just be silly and immersion breaking unless there also are mechanics added to armor them appropriately and have them partially fail from damage ( single point of dmg from a gauss can kill a FAC sized object no thanks )

A FAC sized object designed to go boom and aggressively optimized to do so. Don't think of a missile as a crewed ship; it's a more or less solid brick of material that squeezes the highest power engine possible into the smallest space possible behind a canister of transnewtonian fuel behind a massive warhead behind the sensor and communication package, all of which is build as lightly as possible to get the biggest acceleration and warhead possible.

That said, a size 100 missile probably isn't a ship killer. It's not even much of a bombardment weapon at that size, it's simply too easy a target to any STO defenses. If you are building missiles that big, it's probably to use them as long range survey drones.
 

Offline MarcAFK

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #2163 on: April 05, 2020, 09:43:36 PM »
I wonder if the following might be more intuitive :
- U +
L D R

As default keybindings people are used to for gaming are either WSAD or the keyboard arrows which have that format, and also plus is generally situated to the right of minus.
However to be even more irritatingly nitpicky, Ive noticed that adding an extra column of buttons would make the 3 top rows line up.
See following image.

" Why is this godforsaken hellhole worth dying for? "
". . .  We know nothing about them, their language, their history or what they look like.  But we can assume this.  They stand for everything we don't stand for.  Also they told me you guys look like dorks. "
"Stop exploding, you cowards.  "
 

Offline Protomolecule

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #2164 on: April 06, 2020, 09:57:41 AM »
Suggestion for the future: Dual Boost Engines, inspired by naval geared steam turbines.

Would work like this: when creating an engine, you would select two boost options, one for cruising, and another one for when you really need the speed.  The engine would have a minus 20% power modifier, to reflect the fact that part of the engine is now the equipment to vary the boost level.  Could also have increased costs as well.

When working below the maximum speed of the smaller boost, it would use the fuel consumption of the smaller boost, and when above that, would use the fuel consumption of the higher boost.  That would keep things simple, I think.  And there would be a tradeoff, as a jack of all trades, master of none thing, since a normal engine of the same size and boost would be more powerful, and thus, it would not make the regular engines obsolete.

Could also have a techline limiting the difference between boost levels, for example, starting at 0. 5x.  So you could make a 0. 5x/1. 0x, or a 1. 0x/1. 5x

I'm pretty new here, so I don't know how Steve feels about this sorta of stuff.
 
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Offline xenoscepter

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #2165 on: April 06, 2020, 01:01:32 PM »
I'd honestly like a "cruising power" option or something... or just be able to have more than one type of engine on a ship.

Strategic Movement at reduced speed with reduced fuel usage to "get there" and max speed to kick ass once I've arrived.

Even a check box option, something like "Use Strategic Fuel" on the Task Group level, would be nice. The Class Design could show the Strategic Range. Boosted Engines could have less Strategic Range as boost increases, while Commercial Engines would not have the option to use Strategic mode. Hence, when a Fleet or Task Group has a Commercial Engined ship in it, but ticks the "Use Strategic Fuel" option, it would be limited by the Max Speed of the Commercial Engined craft and could go no faster.

I think half speed one-quarter fuel use or three quarters speed with half fuel use would be good starting points for the Strategic Mode, but play testing would be needed.

EDIT: I support Protomolecule suggestion. I like this a lot and would like to see it implemented. It uses the system that is already in place, and only adds one tech.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 01:03:10 PM by xenoscepter »
 
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Offline Garfunkel

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #2166 on: April 06, 2020, 01:44:08 PM »
Such proposals have been put forth before and the discussion got quite lively on occasion. Both in this thread and elsewhere. It's unlikely to happen anytime soon.

What you can do, now that commercial hangars are a reality in C#, is to make huge commercial carriers with slow commercial engines. No need for maintenance and they use barely any fuel as they carry your military ships to the front.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #2167 on: April 06, 2020, 03:03:10 PM »
Such proposals have been put forth before and the discussion got quite lively on occasion. Both in this thread and elsewhere. It's unlikely to happen anytime soon.

What you can do, now that commercial hangars are a reality in C#, is to make huge commercial carriers with slow commercial engines. No need for maintenance and they use barely any fuel as they carry your military ships to the front.

There were no reason for you to not use tugs for the same reasons before... ;)

Tugs are way more economical to build if all you want to do is transporting a military ship from one place to another using little to no fuel.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 04:21:58 PM by Jorgen_CAB »
 

Offline Froggiest1982

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #2168 on: April 06, 2020, 04:09:53 PM »
Such proposals have been put forth before and the discussion got quite lively on occasion. Both in this thread and elsewhere. It's unlikely to happen anytime soon.

What you can do, now that commercial hangars are a reality in C#, is to make huge commercial carriers with slow commercial engines. No need for maintenance and they use barely any fuel as they carry your military ships to the front.

I don't think commercial hangar should be able to transport military vessels though.

Offline Desdinova

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #2169 on: April 06, 2020, 04:12:45 PM »
Such proposals have been put forth before and the discussion got quite lively on occasion. Both in this thread and elsewhere. It's unlikely to happen anytime soon.

What you can do, now that commercial hangars are a reality in C#, is to make huge commercial carriers with slow commercial engines. No need for maintenance and they use barely any fuel as they carry your military ships to the front.

I don't think commercial hangar should be able to transport military vessels though.

Why not? It's basically a big box that you put spaceships in.
 

Offline xenoscepter

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #2170 on: April 06, 2020, 04:21:42 PM »
You can transport them, but not maintain them. I'm pretty sure it freezes the morale loss, but doesn't stop the maintenance clock, thus you would need maintenance modules if you wanted to store military ships in non-military hangars.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #2171 on: April 06, 2020, 04:26:44 PM »
You can transport them, but not maintain them. I'm pretty sure it freezes the morale loss, but doesn't stop the maintenance clock, thus you would need maintenance modules if you wanted to store military ships in non-military hangars.

You can theoretically build HUGE carriers with commercial engines, hangars and maintenance facilities in one ship. But they are not going to be very good fleet carriers as they are likely to be slow and have a HUGE thermal output when moving at any decent speeds.

Using a commercial carrier as a utility carrier and moving smaller military ships about might not be a terrible idea to some degree, but I would mainly see them as a supportive ship. More like an Escort Carrier in WW2 for example.
 

Offline SerBeardian

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #2172 on: April 06, 2020, 04:57:20 PM »
Don't know if this was suggested, since 145 pages is a lot to go through, and while I like to imagine that Steve eagerly watches all the stuff I throw onto Youtube, I know he's probably too busy to, so I'd like to suggest an eventual expansion on diplomacy I like to call: Local Wars vs. Total Wars.

Scenario for your consideration: You have an alliance with a neighboring empire. You have three JPs leading to their systems where you are neighbors. Neither empire claims the other's systems, so there is no border conflict, just a border. You still lay mines and defensive platforms/patrol fleets at the JPs because good practices (as does the NPR), but you never expect to use them because hey, it's a comfortable peace - they're just there to keep the other guy honest.

Now, in some distant (but not TOO distant) system, you run into some really rich deposits, but your neighbor has some ships who have just shown up there as well. You each have a few light combat vessels there, but neither side is willing to concede this resource deposit (both empires claim system, neither concedes).

Now, in the current system, there are three outcomes:
1) Diplo teams manage to keep the diplo score above -100 long enough for someone to drop a colony in the system, and the AI bails out.
2) The refusals from either side to vacate, or the empires fail to yield even after colonies are set up, and leads to a reduction in diplo score until one empire declares war at -100.
3) You think you have an advantage and decide to "give them a nudge" in that system by firing a shot at their (shielded) ships to kindly ask them to "no really, go away".

the first instance is already fine, but in either of the latter instances, diplo score ends up at -100, which leads to war.

What happens then? A battle breaks out in the new system, someone wins, well done. This is fine, and is meant to happen.

But what happens at the rest of the border? Mines arm, and go after merchant traffic. Your own ships now consider the hefty trade ships in your systems valid targets, as do their ships to your merchants in their systems. Mass murder all-round everywhere, diplo score plummets to -bazillion, you're now in a total war with your once ally. Even if you don't attack them, you still have to send your diplo ships into their systems to try and bring your score up, and if they get shot at on transit, or trip up on mines, that just makes things worse. And how long is it going to take to claw back ALL the diplo points to get above -100? Especially if they send through attacks from their systems? Do we agree that this is a problem?

To give a real-world analogue, it would be like a new island full of oil appears in the middle of the Atlantic, the US and Russia both send a pair of destroyers over, one of them fires a shot that does minimal/no damage, and both countries decide "welp, time to launch all the nukes, lol!". It just doesn't make any sense!

So, I have two proposals:

1) The quick-fix: Make ship damage ONLY decrease diplo score while it is above -100. This way, your diplomats can try and work towards peace, even if you're still fighting off raids from the enemy. This lets you work towards peace as long as nobody invades anyone's colonies. It would also largely remove the necessity of a "warscore", as the value of the rep below that war threshold, plus ongoing combat and invasions, plus diplo team efforts and skills can somewhat account for that. But while easy to implement, it's so un-satisfying, and will still spike mass-slaughter among merchant shipping while the score is still below that threshold of war.
2) The better solution: Expand into a two-tier diplo system.

The way it would work is like this. Each empire has two ratings - one "global" relations rating, and one "local" relations rating within each system where there is a known presence. When combat and damage happens, that local system's diplo rep plummets and you can go about your shooting and killing in there. While there is no combat, the rep climbs back towards zero (where it stops contributing to global rep) or, if colonies are present, towards a baseline set by the global rep level. Diplo teams that can work on that empire can target that system to raise the local rep in that system (rather than just raising the "global" rep overall) and can do this from within any other system (so they don't have to work in a warzone).

The "Global" diplo rep is determined by the average diplo ratings of every system's local score.
Local rep would initially start at the global rep level (upon discovery of the presence of the other empire, so as to not alter the global rep), and tends towards whatever the current global rep is as long as presence continues to be detected. If no presence is detected after X months, or no colonies are identified in that system, then the system is eventually removed from influencing global rep.

So in the above scenario, you would have 6 systems with +1000 rep (one each either side of the JP border), and one system with -1000 rep where your fleets are having the fight over the new territory. Fleets within that system would be at war, and will fire on one another as they desire, but the "Global" diplo rating would be at like +700 points ((6000 - 1000)/7). This means that, as long as you don't engage any ships anywhere else, trade will continue to flow, and the border will remain cordial (with perhaps some minor tension).
However, if you let that conflict fester, then the local rep at each of those other systems will start trending towards the new baseline of +700 instead of +1000, which will start dragging the global score down [((6x700-1000)7)=450], which will drag the local scores down, leading into a loop that eventually brings the global score to -100, at which point total war breaks out. This way, you can't have a perpetual border conflict without any diplomatic penalties, but a single border conflict doesn't instantly get you there, and you have time for diplo teams to bring the local score for that system up if you avoid confict in that area.

The AI would also be aware of this, and would re-evaluate whether it wants to give up on that system and let diplo teams pach up relations, or whether that system is valuable enough to eventually escalate into total war.

Having a hidden third value "Desired Diplo Rep" would accomplish this by letting NPRs decide at what point are they willing to let relations fall to. For example, a low-militancy empire that is gaining a lot of wealth from trade, espeically to the point where it would go into debt without it, might not be willing to fall below the threshold where that trade is cut off, and would pull back from contested systems if the rep falls low enough to threaten a trade treaty. A highly militaristic and xenophobic empire that doesn't benefit economically from your own very much, with a much stronger military, would be much more willing to let global rep fall into total war.

I think that something like this system would give a lot more flexibility and depth to diplomacy and allow things like border conflicts to happen without plunging both empires into total war the second anyone fires a shot at anyone else. It doesn't make sense that two long-time allies would instantly go into total war over some minor damage (and not even destruction) to a corvette in some distant system far from the core worlds.

I also understand that this would mean a lot of work on diplomacy and would not expect to see this in the current release, and I fully expect Steve to be burnt out on diplomacy and be much more keen to work on literally anything else, but perhaps later on down the road something like this would be really awesome to see.
 
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Offline Froggiest1982

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #2173 on: April 06, 2020, 09:25:57 PM »
Don't know if this was suggested, since 145 pages is a lot to go through, and while I like to imagine that Steve eagerly watches all the stuff I throw onto Youtube, I know he's probably too busy to, so I'd like to suggest an eventual expansion on diplomacy I like to call: Local Wars vs. Total Wars.

Scenario for your consideration: You have an alliance with a neighboring empire. You have three JPs leading to their systems where you are neighbors. Neither empire claims the other's systems, so there is no border conflict, just a border. You still lay mines and defensive platforms/patrol fleets at the JPs because good practices (as does the NPR), but you never expect to use them because hey, it's a comfortable peace - they're just there to keep the other guy honest.

Now, in some distant (but not TOO distant) system, you run into some really rich deposits, but your neighbor has some ships who have just shown up there as well. You each have a few light combat vessels there, but neither side is willing to concede this resource deposit (both empires claim system, neither concedes).

Now, in the current system, there are three outcomes:
1) Diplo teams manage to keep the diplo score above -100 long enough for someone to drop a colony in the system, and the AI bails out.
2) The refusals from either side to vacate, or the empires fail to yield even after colonies are set up, and leads to a reduction in diplo score until one empire declares war at -100.
3) You think you have an advantage and decide to "give them a nudge" in that system by firing a shot at their (shielded) ships to kindly ask them to "no really, go away".

the first instance is already fine, but in either of the latter instances, diplo score ends up at -100, which leads to war.

What happens then? A battle breaks out in the new system, someone wins, well done. This is fine, and is meant to happen.

But what happens at the rest of the border? Mines arm, and go after merchant traffic. Your own ships now consider the hefty trade ships in your systems valid targets, as do their ships to your merchants in their systems. Mass murder all-round everywhere, diplo score plummets to -bazillion, you're now in a total war with your once ally. Even if you don't attack them, you still have to send your diplo ships into their systems to try and bring your score up, and if they get shot at on transit, or trip up on mines, that just makes things worse. And how long is it going to take to claw back ALL the diplo points to get above -100? Especially if they send through attacks from their systems? Do we agree that this is a problem?

To give a real-world analogue, it would be like a new island full of oil appears in the middle of the Atlantic, the US and Russia both send a pair of destroyers over, one of them fires a shot that does minimal/no damage, and both countries decide "welp, time to launch all the nukes, lol!". It just doesn't make any sense!

So, I have two proposals:

1) The quick-fix: Make ship damage ONLY decrease diplo score while it is above -100. This way, your diplomats can try and work towards peace, even if you're still fighting off raids from the enemy. This lets you work towards peace as long as nobody invades anyone's colonies. It would also largely remove the necessity of a "warscore", as the value of the rep below that war threshold, plus ongoing combat and invasions, plus diplo team efforts and skills can somewhat account for that. But while easy to implement, it's so un-satisfying, and will still spike mass-slaughter among merchant shipping while the score is still below that threshold of war.
2) The better solution: Expand into a two-tier diplo system.

The way it would work is like this. Each empire has two ratings - one "global" relations rating, and one "local" relations rating within each system where there is a known presence. When combat and damage happens, that local system's diplo rep plummets and you can go about your shooting and killing in there. While there is no combat, the rep climbs back towards zero (where it stops contributing to global rep) or, if colonies are present, towards a baseline set by the global rep level. Diplo teams that can work on that empire can target that system to raise the local rep in that system (rather than just raising the "global" rep overall) and can do this from within any other system (so they don't have to work in a warzone).

The "Global" diplo rep is determined by the average diplo ratings of every system's local score.
Local rep would initially start at the global rep level (upon discovery of the presence of the other empire, so as to not alter the global rep), and tends towards whatever the current global rep is as long as presence continues to be detected. If no presence is detected after X months, or no colonies are identified in that system, then the system is eventually removed from influencing global rep.

So in the above scenario, you would have 6 systems with +1000 rep (one each either side of the JP border), and one system with -1000 rep where your fleets are having the fight over the new territory. Fleets within that system would be at war, and will fire on one another as they desire, but the "Global" diplo rating would be at like +700 points ((6000 - 1000)/7). This means that, as long as you don't engage any ships anywhere else, trade will continue to flow, and the border will remain cordial (with perhaps some minor tension).
However, if you let that conflict fester, then the local rep at each of those other systems will start trending towards the new baseline of +700 instead of +1000, which will start dragging the global score down [((6x700-1000)7)=450], which will drag the local scores down, leading into a loop that eventually brings the global score to -100, at which point total war breaks out. This way, you can't have a perpetual border conflict without any diplomatic penalties, but a single border conflict doesn't instantly get you there, and you have time for diplo teams to bring the local score for that system up if you avoid confict in that area.

The AI would also be aware of this, and would re-evaluate whether it wants to give up on that system and let diplo teams pach up relations, or whether that system is valuable enough to eventually escalate into total war.

Having a hidden third value "Desired Diplo Rep" would accomplish this by letting NPRs decide at what point are they willing to let relations fall to. For example, a low-militancy empire that is gaining a lot of wealth from trade, espeically to the point where it would go into debt without it, might not be willing to fall below the threshold where that trade is cut off, and would pull back from contested systems if the rep falls low enough to threaten a trade treaty. A highly militaristic and xenophobic empire that doesn't benefit economically from your own very much, with a much stronger military, would be much more willing to let global rep fall into total war.

I think that something like this system would give a lot more flexibility and depth to diplomacy and allow things like border conflicts to happen without plunging both empires into total war the second anyone fires a shot at anyone else. It doesn't make sense that two long-time allies would instantly go into total war over some minor damage (and not even destruction) to a corvette in some distant system far from the core worlds.

I also understand that this would mean a lot of work on diplomacy and would not expect to see this in the current release, and I fully expect Steve to be burnt out on diplomacy and be much more keen to work on literally anything else, but perhaps later on down the road something like this would be really awesome to see.

Hi Ser, first of all: BIG FAN!

I read your post carefully and even if we will have to wait for Steve official answer it may be possible you got the diplomacy posts wrong. I am attaching the links again:

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg118258#msg118258

especially this part:

Positive and Negative diplomatic points will be gained through other events, many of which will be defined in future posts. An example of a negative impact is combat. Negative diplomatic points are suffered due to damage inflicted by an alien race using the following rules:
Each point of damage from a hit that only damages shields: 0.1
Each point of damage from a hit that causes armour damage but not internal: 0.25
Each point of damage from a hit that causes internal damage: 1.0
Each point of space-based damage to populations, ground forces or shipyards: 1.0
Each ton of ground forces destroyed in ground-based combat: 0.01
If diplomatic relations are above the hostile level (-100), then even a single point of damage through combat will reduce relations to that point. However a period of mutual non-interaction following a small clash will probably return the diplomatic status to neutral. For example, if communications are established you may ask a survey ship to leave your system (mechanics in a future post). If that didn't work or you did not have communication, you can slightly damage that ship. An unarmed ship would retreat from hostile aliens and the immediate impact would be the alien race treating you as hostile. However, with no further combat in the short term, the status would soon return to a wary neutrality. Future communication and diplomacy would still be an option. Larger wars are harder to resolve but peace treaties will be covered in a future post.
I know that "future posts" are mentioned several times, but I wanted to lay out the basic framework so I can build upon it.


Small skirmishes will be permitted plus on the long-run relations will tend to go back towards 0 (both positive and negative) in the absence of further interactions. Of course peace treaties and such will help in us understanding the mechanic in place more once Steve will implement them into the game. Maybe in the meantime, Steve could lower the values for the interactions? I think it will depend also on his testing.
Now on your specific scenario (even if I absolutely understand what you mean and I really looking forward to Steve answer), you should also consider this mechanic:

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg118362#msg118362

This meaning that:
Now, in the current system, there are three outcomes:
1) Diplo teams manage to keep the diplo score above -100 long enough for someone to drop a colony in the system, and the AI bails out.
2) The refusals from either side to vacate, or the empires fail to yield even after colonies are set up, and leads to a reduction in diplo score until one empire declares war at -100.
3) You think you have an advantage and decide to "give them a nudge" in that system by firing a shot at their (shielded) ships to kindly ask them to "no really, go away".

1) even if you drop a colony it will not be enough for the AI to bails out and it will take for you several years before reaching a level where the AI is leaving the place and good luck with your commercial and or logistic effort in getting that colony going with all the AI sparrows around.
2) this is the most likely scenario you are going to face and honestly, I believe is quite accurate. You are pretty much trying to form Israel in Palestine. We all know how this ends.
3) it will not work as per the first mechanic and also for the one discussed at the beginning.

I also do believe like you do that the Diplo part requires just that pretty little feature to allow AI to recognize what is acceptable and what is absolutely unacceptable when it comes to judging human player actions. Maybe lower the tiers as I suggested could help but I think we have to consider both yours and potentially my suggestion will not avoid the exploit of taking the NPR out just one piece at the time and we may need something more considerate. However, I still believe we should give Steve a shot and look at what the Peace mechanics will bring to the table as I guess he cannot go down there road without actually coding the AI judgement on Human actions based on the situation and data available.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 09:34:23 PM by froggiest1982 »
 

Offline Agm-114

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #2174 on: April 06, 2020, 09:35:32 PM »
Hey steve, in terms of making your code difficult to decompile/modify it might be worthwhile to checksum the exe in addition to the obfuscation, I did it with a personal project and it worked great. 

In fact for pulsar we have the current git version printed to the bottom of the screen, it's been a great debugging tool to make sure that everyone's files are the same so it might be worthwhile to have the game display the current version / hash in non intrusive, but always visible way. 

While there is a certain aspect of your reasoning obfuscation I disagree with, the rest is pretty solid IMO.   However there is a very major reason for obfuscation I think you either haven't considered / neglected to mention and that's the fact that if other people start distributing a modded version of the game, it is risky for you and users since malicious code may also be injected.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 10:34:49 PM by Agm-114 »
 
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