Author Topic: reserve fleet idea  (Read 5799 times)

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Offline sneer (OP)

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reserve fleet idea
« on: January 02, 2023, 05:27:38 AM »
I have hit a point where I have decent fleet which is relatively old  (year 2100) after 6th or in some cases 7th major upgrade within 4 similar classes ( early game needs more specialization , late game offer more universal design possible)
hull technology is far away from when these ships were built
I know I can scrap ( but 1mil tonnage of pretty good ships scrapped is a huge waste)
I know I can build better and in long term cheaper ships but maintanace will be to high when they will be completed

absolutely there would be a perfect solution to be able to put ships into reserve ( strip them of crew , mothballed ,parked on the orbit ) with fraction of their running MSP costs (5%?)
when brought to active they will have to get their crews from scratch ( green grade/training) - just like fresh ships from shipyard
 
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Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: reserve fleet idea
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2023, 10:14:45 AM »
Every time this idea comes up, the same objection is raised and never satisfactorily resolved: what prevents players from building ships and immediately putting them into mothballs? There is not really a problem with putting old ships into mothballs, since they will probably be outdated anyways when recalled to service, but rather brand-new ships which can be stored extremely cheaply for 20+ years and still be highly effective when recalled. This was a major exploit in Starfire, the TT game from which Aurora was largely derived, for similar reasons.

The ability to build a fleet several times larger than what a race can support in terms of maintenance and reactivate those ships in a far shorter time frame vastly outweighs any penalty from poor crew performance. So far nobody has come up with a mechanism for mothball fleets which is balanced, not overly complex, and able to prevent building directly to reserve from being a viable or dominant approach.
 

Offline Aloriel

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Re: reserve fleet idea
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2023, 10:42:29 AM »
Perhaps something similar to Paradox's system when you under pay for your fleet? The ships are at 5% health, and morale and organization are near zero.

In Aurora terms, training is now 0, and *all* ship systems are damaged except crew quarters or some such (to prevent boomies). Shipyards must be used to bring the ship back online, and then the crew must be trained. Ships would also need to be refueled and supplied. Essentially, the ship must almost be rebuilt.

Could be useful if you are the one starting the war and you have time to gear up, but not so much for a surprise attack.
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Offline Cobaia

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Re: reserve fleet idea
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2023, 10:47:27 AM »
What is the difference between mothballing and pausing ship construction at 99%? The mechanism exists at the cost of bulding more slipway and shipyards.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: reserve fleet idea
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2023, 11:11:32 AM »
Perhaps something similar to Paradox's system when you under pay for your fleet? The ships are at 5% health, and morale and organization are near zero.

In Aurora terms, training is now 0, and *all* ship systems are damaged except crew quarters or some such (to prevent boomies). Shipyards must be used to bring the ship back online, and then the crew must be trained. Ships would also need to be refueled and supplied. Essentially, the ship must almost be rebuilt.

Could be useful if you are the one starting the war and you have time to gear up, but not so much for a surprise attack.

Aurora doesn't really have an equivalent to morale/organization for ship crews which inflict crippling penalties when low. We do have crew training but that effect is not very strong, certainly I'd rather have 2x as many ships with minimum crew grade rather than half as many with 100% training in almost any circumstance.

Repairing damaged systems is more promising, and usually comes up in these discussions. However, it will either be so expensive that there's no reason to mothball at all (which I think will certainly be the case if shipyard repairs are necessary), or if mothballing is viable then what prevents players from building new ships into mothballs anyways? This latter part is really the big problem that no mothballing mechanic yet proposed has solved, frankly it is not a big exploit to keep a bunch of ancient ships around that will probably be horribly outmatched in the modern space combat arena, the problem is when you build a dozen shiny new battleships and immediately shuffle them into reserve for that sweet -80% maintenance discount or what have you.


What is the difference between mothballing and pausing ship construction at 99%? The mechanism exists at the cost of bulding more slipway and shipyards.

Slipways and shipyards are very expensive and usually once built are needed 100% of the time unless there is a resource shortage (and even then, a good player will often find clever ways to leverage limited resources as well as refit mechanics to keep the shipyards working).

The best idea I've ever seen for a mothball mechanic has been to require a slipway for each mothballed ship. This makes the mechanic properly too costly to just build ships into reserve, but by doing that it makes mothballing arguably just too costly, period - basically, why would you ever mothball an old ship if you could mothball a brand-new ship instead?

In the Real WorldTM, the reason that new-build ships don't usually get built directly to mothballs is because governments only authorize that construction if the ship will immediately perform some essential mission for that country. In Aurora, we don't really have that same impetus unless there is a war on; PPV and the new Raider spoilers help but don't come close to replicating the wide range of "peacetime" missions a real-world navy has to perform. This means that not only is any mechanic we devise to make mothballing non-optimal also going to be artificial, but there isn't a clearly good way to make mothballing only a reasonable option for old ships and not new ones.
 
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Offline sneer (OP)

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Re: reserve fleet idea
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2023, 01:50:48 PM »
Valid arguments
possible solutions:
time needed for reactivation ( few weeks to 1-2 month - still better than 1.5year on average to build new ship from scratch)
one time extra cost in MSP ( double or triple of annual normal cost)
penalty to crew efficiency for a limited time


p.s. I operate 50k ships - building a military slipway this size to store a ship is weak idea
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: reserve fleet idea
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2023, 05:13:17 PM »
Aside from what Nuclearslurpee said... in the real world training crew and have an actual functional warship capable of actual fighting will take a long time. Once a ship is built they usually take months and sometimes years to get ready, from crew training to tuning equipment etc... it obviously depend on the ships size, mission capabilities and so on, nothing of this is really modeled in the game.

As soon as a ship is built it is 100% operable in the game... you can even start at a rather high crew grade to boot.

There is fleet training... but this really is not super important other than in beam combat.

There is the PPV value of ships you need to protect colonies, but this can also be suppressed by ground troops. There might be a higher need for active ships if you play in multi-faction games, but not in single empire campaigns.

For mothballing to work there need to be two things added... a real and serious need for active ships. All ships will need extended training before they can be deployed depending on it's crew size. The larger the crew the more time it should need before it become operable at all. This time need to be long enough that it actually is an issue for most ships.

You could also make it so the ship simply decay over time to about 50% after say 10 years. You now will have to repair the ship in a yard before you can use it, but it only cost one tenth the resources while it takes half as much time as if you had to build it from scratch. Now you have to invest both in some time and resources to get them ready again. This would simulate that you need to refurbish them and retrain the crew.

The exact numbers could obviously be up for debate... but... you might get rather close to just scrapping the ship and store the components and build them again when you need them. Which is what I usually suggest when mothballing comes up, as it is kind of the same thing. Don't build the ships you don't need, instead build most of the components you "might" need or scrap ships after a major war and store the components. Only keep the ships you actually need around
 

Offline papent

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Re: reserve fleet idea
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2023, 06:27:59 PM »
One method of making mothballing work in Aurora that was previously suggested in the Pre-MSP days was to roll the maintenance clocks to just before failure when ships are removed from mothball they would immediately need a overhaul or risk a critical maintenance failure.

Now that MSP exists, this idea deserves a revisit.
In my humble opinion anything that could be considered a balance issue is a moot point unless the AI utilize it against you because otherwise it's an exploit you willing choose to use to game the system. 
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Online Andrew

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Re: reserve fleet idea
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2023, 07:55:02 PM »
Some discussions of just about the only mothball fleet since the age of sail and the problems in keeping the ships and then reactivating them

and
https://wwiiafterwwii.wordpress.com/2016/03/27/mothballing-the-us-navy-after-wwii-pt-1/
https://wwiiafterwwii.wordpress.com/2016/03/27/mothballing-the-us-navy-after-wwii-pt-2/

It's not as easy as just closing the doors and turning out the lights. Vaccuum will solve some problems but cause all sorts of others with internal components intended to have atmosphere and pressure,
Reactivating warships was always a dockyard job , it could probably avoid a full dry dock/construction yard but not always.

It takes massive wartime overproduction to produce a large enough fleet to mothball, and even then the ships in storage become very difficult to bring back , as once they are no longer in service people stop building parts for the old systems they use and no one is trained in using them. When you bring your Nuclear pulse engine ships out of storage so you thing the spare parts and engineers used for your magneto-plasma ships will be of any use?
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: reserve fleet idea
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2023, 11:15:22 PM »
Yeah, mothballing has never been as prevalent or as useful as romantics make it seem. It's a weird fixation that a lot of people seem to have, that mothballing is easy, cheap, real and should be an integral feature of Aurora.

Just scrap your old ships if you can't maintain them.
 
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Offline papent

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Re: reserve fleet idea
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2023, 02:16:54 AM »
Yeah, mothballing has never been as prevalent or as useful as romantics make it seem. It's a weird fixation that a lot of people seem to have, that mothballing is easy, cheap, real and should be an integral feature of Aurora.

Just scrap your old ships if you can't maintain them.

It's prevalent and common practice to mothball aircraft/spacecraft from the USAF and North American airlines to the PLAAF.  I've personally been a team member to regenerated an older C-130 into a specialized mission variant and older space assets have been pulled out of long term storage for usage.

If you have the assets why not store it. Unlike a sea vessel a spaceship/craft would be more like an aircraft not being stored in a medium that rapidly corrodes the unit.
In my humble opinion anything that could be considered a balance issue is a moot point unless the AI utilize it against you because otherwise it's an exploit you willing choose to use to game the system. 
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Offline mike2R

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Re: reserve fleet idea
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2023, 04:12:06 AM »
One alternative use I've found for old warships, since the addition of Raiders, is conversion to makeshift carriers for system defence.

Leaving the old engines in place, but replacing the weapons, shields and fire controls (and maybe even part of the engines and armour) with hanger bays, magazines, and upping the deployment time and maintenance lifespan is a relatively cheap refit.  The resulting ship lacks the speed, defences and fuel efficiency of a new build, but that hardly matters for a ship that is just going to sit in space and very occasionally launch fighters.
 

Offline sneer (OP)

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Re: reserve fleet idea
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2023, 02:57:38 AM »
ok another idea how to solve this
how about adding another 2 possible tasks to shipyards  ( so no retooling needed for it)
mothballing and reactivating
( so both processes would take appropriate time /wealth/some MSP and the need of real active slipways ( however without retooling or full production costs , and with reduced time in comparison to build anything )

 

Offline papent

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Re: reserve fleet idea
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2023, 04:41:02 AM »
ok another idea how to solve this
how about adding another 2 possible tasks to shipyards  ( so no retooling needed for it)
mothballing and reactivating
( so both processes would take appropriate time /wealth/some MSP and the need of real active slipways ( however without retooling or full production costs , and with reduced time in comparison to build anything )

If I may detail it out:

  • Mothball Task
    Any Shipyard (Naval/Commercial/Repair) with an empty slipway of adequate size can perform the task of putting a ship into deep storage at the cost of 5% MSP of Max Repair (Minimum of 25 MSP) & takes 10 secs per ton (with a minimum of 2 hours).
  • Reactivation Task
    Any Shipyard (Naval/Commercial/Repair) with an empty slipway of adequate size can perform the task of reacting a from deep storage ship at the cost of 15% MSP of Max Repair (minimum of 25 MSP) & takes 10 secs per ton + 1 minute per BP (with a minimum of 6 hours).

Does this align with your idea?
In my humble opinion anything that could be considered a balance issue is a moot point unless the AI utilize it against you because otherwise it's an exploit you willing choose to use to game the system. 
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Online Andrew

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Re: reserve fleet idea
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2023, 05:35:22 AM »


If I may detail it out:

  • Mothball Task
    Any Shipyard (Naval/Commercial/Repair) with an empty slipway of adequate size can perform the task of putting a ship into deep storage at the cost of 5% MSP of Max Repair (Minimum of 25 MSP) & takes 10 secs per ton (with a minimum of 2 hours).
  • Reactivation Task
    Any Shipyard (Naval/Commercial/Repair) with an empty slipway of adequate size can perform the task of reacting a from deep storage ship at the cost of 15% MSP of Max Repair (minimum of 25 MSP) & takes 10 secs per ton + 1 minute per BP (with a minimum of 6 hours).

Does this align with your idea?
I would say those numbers are too low by one or 2 orders of magnitude
with your numbers reactivating a 10,000 ton ship would take 100,000 seconds or 27 hours. I would think 270 hours was way too short , so at least 1000 seconds per ton to get something which is an actual issue and reflects how long activating a ship takes