Passive Engagement

[DuraniumCowboy (OP)]

In one of Steve's fiction write ups, he describes launching normal (ie non active seeker) missiles at passive contacts and then waiting for the last minute to turn on active sensors and finishing the attack.  Any idea if this is currently possible in 6.43, and if so, how to actually do that?

[JacenHan]

If you're talking about the TransNewtonian Campaign, back then you could redirect missiles in flight, thus the situations where fleets would launch missiles at a waypoint, then send them all at a target in a single wave. At any rate, it isn't possible anymore.

[Arwyn]

Actually, you can launch missiles at a waypoint, which would then go into acquisition once they arrive at the target. Any hostile ship within sight of the missiles sensors would be targeted by the missiles on board sensors.

So this is "sort of" doable, although the missiles sensors would be active on launch and radiating, they wont actually SEEK a target until they arrive at the initial way point.

[MarcAFK]

The effect is still similar since the missile sensors won't be detected by the enemy ships intill get get close.

[alex_brunius]

So this is "sort of" doable, although the missiles sensors would be active on launch and radiating, they wont actually SEEK a target until they arrive at the initial way point.

Since computers in fiction should be able to calculate an intercept path easilly I think passive engagements ( using active seeking missiles for the final strech ) should be made a feature.

Possibly also needs defensive measures like a Zig-Zag move orders slowing down practical speed/ increasing fuel usage but increasing the range needed for missiles active.

This would make it work similar too WW2 submarine combat firing torpedoes on calculated intercept trajectories.

For me this would make other Aurora features like stealth, thermal reduction engines and missile sensors useful and fun to use. Because let's be honest, their use is quite limited if you still need to reveal yourself in order to fire anything.

[DuraniumCowboy (OP)]

Actually there is a way to get a little better solution.  I am developing it in my current game, although I don't have all the tech yet.
.
First off, I have a series of missiles called AMIRV's, they are size 5 active seekers with a range ~2.5M.  Traditionally I have used them as mine warheads (4xAMIRVS + 4 MSP of thermal passives for a mine).

In this case, I going to build a size 24 two stage missile with 2 AMIRVS, ~2.5M ranged thermal seeker, and a relatively slow, long range initial stage.  My tech is low right now, so range on this is ~23M right now.  I am pretty sure I can fire these off at a waypoint, and if it gets a thermal contact, it will home on it and then pop out the AMIRV's at seperation range.  If I understand correctly, when it gets to the waypoint it should just become a mine, unless it runs out of fuel.  In that case, not sure if it self destructs or simply becomes a mine in place.  I am calling these large missile torpedoes.

I am building destroyer raiders for a delivery vehicle.  Stealthed out and packed with reduced weight size 24 launchers and macked out passives.  They can lay traditional mines, or conduct hidden strikes on enemy shipping.  I'll let yall know how it goes.

[alex_brunius]

I was thinking about making something similar. A stealthy spaceship that basically drops it's entire payload as a bunch of passive mines inside the calculated path of an enemy planet with a colony  
( or an enemy taskforce )


But the point is that it would be nice to have support inside the game to calculate at least where an intercept waypoint would be (based on enemy speed/heading and missile speed) instead of having to do the math manually or guess.

[DuraniumCowboy (OP)]

Trig is your friend 

This is the kind of stuff sub captains used to have to do in their heads (well they had analogue computers, but they would still guesstimate it themselves to make sure all the dials were set correctly)

[alex_brunius]

It is not so much the calculations that are bothersome as the lack of computers onboard a starship capable of doing them

[DuraniumCowboy (OP)]

BTW, here is my destroyer raider:

Code: [Select]

Mars class Raider    10 200 tons     170 Crew     1549.7 BP      TCS 204  TH 960  EM 0
4705 km/s     Armour 2-41     Shields 0-0     Sensors 88/22/0/0     Damage Control Rating 7     PPV 47.52
Maint Life 3.98 Years     MSP 665    AFR 118%    IFR 1.7%    1YR 67    5YR 1005    Max Repair 88 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 36 months    Spare Berths 1   
Magazine 504   

B-E-1 160 EP Magneto-plasma Drive (6)    Power 160    Fuel Use 54%    Signature 160    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 1 100 000 Litres    Range 35.9 billion km   (88 days at full power)

A-2 CIWS-120x6 (1x6)    Range 1000 km     TS: 12000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit
ML-24ML-2 Size 24 Missile Launcher (33% Reduction) (6)    Missile Size 24    Rate of Fire 4800
A-MFC-AS-S-1 FC41-R20 (1)     Range 41.3m km    Resolution 20
TORP-1 (21)  Speed: 10 700 km/s   End: 32.5m    Range: 23.3m km   WH: 0    Size: 24    TH: 35/21/10

A-MDR-S-1 Active MR6-R1 (1)     GPS 56     Range 6.2m km    MCR 671k km    Resolution 1
A-PTH-HX-1 Sensor TH8-88 (1)     Sensitivity 88     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  88m km
A-PEM-M-1 Sensor EM2-22 (1)     Sensitivity 22     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Two raiders will probably work with a jump destroyer, which has the energy weapons to finish off wounded prey:

Code: [Select]

Specter class Jump Destroyer    10 200 tons     302 Crew     1756.6 BP      TCS 204  TH 640  EM 0
3137 km/s    JR 3-50     Armour 5-41     Shields 0-0     Sensors 44/44/0/0     Damage Control Rating 7     PPV 29.04
Maint Life 3.54 Years     MSP 753    AFR 118%    IFR 1.7%    1YR 92    5YR 1382    Max Repair 150 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 18 months    Spare Berths 3   
Flag Bridge   

A-JEM-102-1 J10200(3-50) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 10200 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 3
B-E-1 160 EP Magneto-plasma Drive (4)    Power 160    Fuel Use 54%    Signature 160    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 1 240 000 Litres    Range 40.5 billion km   (149 days at full power)

2x12NUV-2 Turret (1x2)    Range 96 000km     TS: 16000 km/s     Power 8-6     RM 3    ROF 10        4 4 4 3 2 2 1 1 1 0
10RG-1 10cm Railgun V1/C3 (6x4)    Range 10 000km     TS: 4000 km/s     Power 3-3     RM 1    ROF 5        1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
B-BFC-SRB-1 S00.6 24-5000 (3)    Max Range: 48 000 km   TS: 5000 km/s     79 58 38 17 0 0 0 0 0 0
B-BFC-DPM-1 S04 48-16000 (1)    Max Range: 96 000 km   TS: 16000 km/s     90 79 69 58 48 38 27 17 6 0
B-P8-1 Tokamak Fusion Reactor Technology PB-1 (3)     Total Power Output 24    Armour 0    Exp 5%

A-ASR-H-1 Active MR47-R60 (1)     GPS 3360     Range 47.7m km    Resolution 60
A-MDR-S-1 Active MR6-R1 (1)     GPS 56     Range 6.2m km    MCR 671k km    Resolution 1
A-PTH-H-1 Sensor TH4-44 (1)     Sensitivity 44     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  44m km
A-PEM-H-1 Sensor EM4-44 (1)     Sensitivity 44     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  44m km

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes


[DuraniumCowboy (OP)]

BTW, I haven't tested the raider yet.  My last game locked up, so I started a new one.  With that being said, I had some more ideas/questions about using sensors on missiles?

1.  If I put a sensor on a missile and launch it at a waypoint, will the missile fly all the way to the waypoint if it gets a contact first?  Or will it start tracking and intercepting as soon as it gets a contact?
2.  In either case, I would assume that if I use a two stage design, as soon as the bus has contact with an enemy within the separation range, it will deploy the final stage?
3.  If I use a bus without any sensors and shoot at a way point, and then go active at a later time when an enemy is within the separation range, will the second stage missiles get released?
4.  I assume a missile with passive thermal will attack the strongest thermal signature it can detect.
5.  I assume a missile with passive EM will attack the strongest EM source, which tends to be the strongest shields.
6.  I assume that an active seeker attacks the enemy with the largest cross section in range.
7.  In general, these will re-engage other targets if their primary is killed providing they can see another contact and still have range/fuel, is that correct?
8.  If I launch at a way point and the missile gets there without contact, it basically stays in place and becomes a mine?
9.  If a second stage with a sensor deploys and doesn't have an immediate contact, I assume the second stages self destruct?

[sublight]

1,2: Missiles flies to their target/waypoint. They will not look for new targets until the original target/waypoint is lost/deleted, in which case they will continue to fly toward the last known location while in search mode.

3: Nope, but I believe 2nd stages are automatically deployed once the 1st stage reaches the waypoint.

4,5: The Thermal/EM signatures from populations and active scanners are ignored. Otherwise the strongest signature is usually targeted since that is usually seen first, but I haven't used passive missile enough to know if that is always true if multiple signatures of different strengths are detected in the same increment.

7: Yes

8: Sort of. Missiles with second stages deploy their payload at the waypoint, and missiles with warheads self destruct when the fuel counter reaches zero. Note the fuel counter is in powered flight time, not distance.

9: Nope, second stages appear to inherit the target of the primary stage, but otherwise behave as independent missiles. If they have sensors of their own they will search for a new target when necessary until running out of fuel.



Not sure why the Mars class Raider has an R1 active: that doesn't match the fire control resolution and the CIWS system doesn't require an independent active scanner. The missiles also seem a little short ranged for a ship with such a large TCS/Thermal signature.

[DuraniumCowboy (OP)]

Yeah, understood the Mars is a bit of the hodge podge, orginally I had a small guass cannon which was what the active sensor supported, with the idea that it could finish off disabled targets without wasting ordnance, but I changed the CONOP to instead have one jump destroyer (beam armed) to support 2-3 raiders (w/out jump drives).  As I mentioned, the game I had got hosed, so I am bout ten years of time in my new game from trying this out again.  Thanks for helping with my questions.

[Jorgen_CAB]

Not exactly the same thing but I use small active sensor scouts to achieve similar results. I no longer put large active sensor on ships since the mechanic in the game does not support passive engagement I have resorted to painting enemy targets with small scouts with higher resolution scanners.

Basically regular ships higher resolution sensors is 5 and 1 to spot small crafts and missiles while smaller platforms carry bigger resolution scanners. That way a destroyer group don't have to reveal themselves to fire missiles and the platform that perform the active scanning is a fast very small target that is very difficult to target at those ranged at which they paint their targets.

It turns the game into a little more fun cat and mouse game where ships are designed for many different purposes and you can't keep all ships in one place for fear of having them revealed by a scout and fired upon from somewhere outside your scanning range. Missiles also tend to be larger and with long range to take advantage of such opportunities.

A standard destroyer/frigate use one or two 250t boat-bay with one or more sensor scouts carrying a 60-120res scanners, basically a sensor fighter craft. The scouts usually are between 125-500 in size, so it is hard to pin down a good counter measure for them, which usually means that all sides also need dedicated frigate scouting platforms to deal with enemy scout crafts to picket for their destroyer/cruiser/carrier fleets.
Fleets usually ends up with a plethora of scout and anti-scout ship in sizes between 125-6000t.

I really would like to be able to target passive contacts, that would be realistic... but only with missiles that have sensors themselves could do this. Some mechanic to support this would be great.

[linkxsc]

Just curious. With the whole firing at waypoints and trying to rely on the missiles active sensors rather than anything else. Does this mean you could possibly run a ship with no active sensors (or maybe even no missile fire control?) to accomplish that? Like, mines don't need active locks, but still need a fire control?