Aurora 4x
VB6 Aurora => Bureau of Ship Design => Topic started by: Atlantia on October 28, 2011, 02:38:28 PM
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Welp, I've played about a dozen games, but never have I gotten to the point where I needed a military ship before. (Either I died of loneliness, was invaded from a neighbouring system by some race that was a million times more advanced than me, or I gave up out of general dissatisfaction with the current state of affairs.) Anyways, here's my first independent design for a Missile Cruiser. (I had little idea what I was doing other than that I needed to try to match MFC to missile range.)
Viking class Missile Cruiser 6,150 tons 838 Crew 1263.8 BP TCS 123 TH 600 EM 60
4878 km/s Armour 1-29 Shields 2-300 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 20 PPV 44
Maint Life 14.48 Years MSP 1284 AFR 30% IFR 0.4% 1YR 11 5YR 172 Max Repair 84 MSP
Magazine 218
Internal Confinement Fusion Drive E5M (6) Power 100 Fuel Use 50% Signature 100 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 150,000 Litres Range 87.8 billion km (208 days at full power)
Delta R300/12.5 Shields (1) Total Fuel Cost 13 Litres per day
ASM Missile Launcher Mk I (8) Missile Size 5 Rate of Fire 30
AMM Missile Launcher Mk I (4) Missile Size 1 Rate of Fire 10
MFC AM FC13-R1 (1) Range 13.9m km Resolution 1
MFC SR FC39-R8 (1) Range 39.2m km Resolution 8
MFC LR FC107-R60 (1) Range 107.3m km Resolution 60
1-Mosquito-Mk I (23) Speed: 32,000 km/s End: 7.8m Range: 15m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 405 / 243 / 121
5-Firestalker Mk I (22) Speed: 32,000 km/s End: 46.9m Range: 90m km WH: 6 Size: 5 TH: 192 / 115 / 57
5-Neutraliser Mk I (17) Speed: 24,000 km/s End: 20.8m Range: 30m km WH: 12 Size: 5 TH: 208 / 124 / 62
Active Search Sensor MR9-R1 (1) GPS 84 Range 9.2m km Resolution 1
Active Search Sensor MR92-R100 (1) GPS 8400 Range 92.4m km Resolution 100
Suggestions?
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Thats real nice son but don't feel afraid to add some more tonnage it to it (as much as to reduce the speed to 3000km) I mean that is a very light cruiser, hell, my deisgnated mk.II missile/battleship support cruiser weighs 22,900 tons with 2 16-size launhers and 20 5-size box launchers (for those times when the surgical strike just aint cuttin' it) In anycase not to shabby
EDIT: also that's a really long maintence life man, I keep mine (for battle-line ships) at 10 years a pop
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Forget the shields 2 pts of shields is nothing.
Your armour is similar to damp tissue paper.
You have very small magazine capacity which will make your ship innefectual.
Recomendations
MUCH less maintenance this shop has far too much.
Split the fleet into 2 designs, one with the antimissiles and sensor and one with the Anti ship missiles. Improve magazine capacity and armour.
I would not bother with the R8 sensor and if I felt I must have it I would add a third design to the fleet.
8 ASM launchers are acceptable on a ship of this size and the missile desgings look ok, I personally buid my AMM;s with much shorter range as you won't detect missiles anywhere near that far out.
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Your armour is similar to damp tissue paper.
Agree.
I'd drop the shields altogether and just up the armor if you are going for light protection. Armor has a MUCH better bang for the buck. And considering your magazine capacities, you will not be in long sustained combat/campaigns so the shield regen likely won't be worth the investment.
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What exactly do you mean by independent design? I take it you plan on letting this ship operate alone or only with ships of its own class together? In the first case, I'd recommend you to supersize it - if you meet an enemy, it will most likely be an entire group of hostile ships and a single ship of this design will be overwhelmed. If you operate with multiple ships of this class, I'd recommend the same as the previous posters have: Splitting the ships into an offensive, a point defense and perhaps a sensor class could help you fulfill all roles with an even smaller tonnage.
Defenses:
One point of armour is very low - it's literally just the bare minimum not to fall apart in the vacuum of space. I'd up it a good five points or if it's indeed intended for self sufficient operation a good ten to fifteen points, depending on your tech level.
The shield with two levels is pretty much without effect. It literally absorbs two points of damage and then disappears. It couldn't even stop a single of your own ASMs - And the recharge would take 300 seconds, meaning one point of damage absorbed every 150 seconds. You could either leave out the shield or add some more to create an efficient barrier. With delta shield technology, I'd recommend the former.
Offenses:
I like your missile design with small and large payload designs of the same size. However, your magazine capacity is way too small (I doubt you could destroy even one alien ship with your ammo) and only four AMM tubes won't protect the ship for long. My suggestion would be to outsource the AMMs into a different design and (at least) double the magazine space, if not triple.
Furthermore, your AMM range seems pretty high - almost double the range of your R1 sensor. Similiarly, the speed looks rather low (as fast as your ASM). I don't know the hit chances of your missile design, but I'd like to voice doubt about your AMM design.
The R8 MFC isn't of much use, I think - you don't have a dedicated R8 sensor and so wouldn't have much of an advantage over the R60 MFC.
Support:
The mainteance capacity is beast. I often read people suggesting a maintenance life of 1-2 years, though I personally like to go for 3-5. I'd say 14-15 is way too much, especially considering the low magazine and fuel stockpiles. If you truly want this to operate alone, you won't need more maintenance life than you have fuel and your magazines will run dry after the first contact, I'm certain.
Also note how your design has no passive sensors. Unless you want it to be always-actives, you should add at least small thermal and/or EM sensors.
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Recomendations
MUCH less maintenance this shop has far too much.
Split the fleet into 2 designs, one with the antimissiles and sensor and one with the Anti ship missiles. Improve magazine capacity and armour.
I would not bother with the R8 sensor and if I felt I must have it I would add a third design to the fleet.
8 ASM launchers are acceptable on a ship of this size and the missile desgings look ok, I personally buid my AMM;s with much shorter range as you won't detect missiles anywhere near that far out.
Thanks for your advice! Let's see, I've got a couple questions...
You're right about AMM and missile detection. The M9-R1 I designed can detect Size 6 and smaller missiles at about 1mil k. So I guess I oughta design an AMM to fit in that range, huh?
Does this look absolutely crazy in terms of that? (I was going off the wiki's basic suggestions for AMMs, and that's what the first AMM I designed was)
Missile Size: 1 MSP (0.05 HS) Warhead: 1 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 41
Speed: 32800 km/s Endurance: 1 minutes Range: 1.8m km
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 1344.8% 3k km/s 410% 5k km/s 269% 10k km/s 134.5%
And about splitting, do you propose that that AMM ship also serve as the eyes for the ASM ship?
What exactly do you mean by independent design?
Heh, I meant 'of my own creation' rather than something taken as an example from the Wiki. Thanks for your advice!
New designs coming soon once I have a better magazine and passive sensors designed.
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When it comes to missiles, I just design them by what my guts tell me.
Some extra range above the sensor coverage isn't too bad, both you and your enemy will be moving around anyway, so distances are relative.
With that design, it looks like you put the free fuel MSP into almost exclusivly agility? I always notice that at a certain amount of agility, further MSP fractions don't bring as much as the same addition to the engine power or even reduce the to-hit percentage. I always play around with those two ...
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All righty, I'm waiting another year on the next level of armour, and here's my new AMM design. I shifted everything from fuel into engine instead of agility, so now it's a bit faster, and its range is just beyond the that of its MFC.
Missile Size: 1 MSP (0.05 HS) Warhead: 1 Armour: 0 Manoeuvre Rating: 34
Speed: 39800 km/s Endurance: 0 minutes Range: 1.1m km
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 1353.2% 3k km/s 442% 5k km/s 270.6% 10k km/s 135.3%
What's the largest missile that can be destroyed by a 1-strength warhead? Was it just below 50 or something? The major threat to me, as evidenced by previous games, is some almost-if-not-Precursor-strength enemy, who's always 2 or 3 systems away from Sol... Grr...
Here's my AMM Cruiser (and the missile will be replaced with the above design, of course)
Baranda-A class Missile Cruiser 4,100 tons 298 Crew 800.2 BP TCS 82 TH 300 EM 0
3658 km/s Armour 10-22 Shields 0-0 Sensors 22/22/0/0 Damage Control Rating 5 PPV 8
Maint Life 10.7 Years MSP 610 AFR 26% IFR 0.4% 1YR 10 5YR 146 Max Repair 84 MSP
Magazine 308
Internal Confinement Fusion Drive E5M (3) Power 100 Fuel Use 50% Signature 100 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres Range 87.8 billion km (277 days at full power)
AMM Missile Launcher Mk I (8) Missile Size 1 Rate of Fire 10
MFC AM FC13-R1 (1) Range 13.9m km Resolution 1
1-Mosquito-Mk I (300) Speed: 32,000 km/s End: 7.8m Range: 15m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 405 / 243 / 121
Active Search Sensor MR9-R1 (1) GPS 84 Range 9.2m km Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH2-22 (1) Sensitivity 22 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22m km
EM Detection Sensor EM2-22 (1) Sensitivity 22 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22m km
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
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That magazine is pitiful. You can possibly meet some enemy ships that can literally pump out thousands of AMMs before going dry, add more magazines.
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For a 4kt vessel I think it looks pretty adequate (in my books).
It features quite sturdy armour and missile tubes according to its missile stock. You'll have to field several of these due to their low size, but with 4kt and 800 BP it looks like a managable effort to me. It's capable of firing 38 volleys of its AMM - Not something for two armadas meeting, but with other ships of its class it should be decent flotilla PD.
I'd add a second MFC, otherwise you'll be unable to target two targets at once (say, two volleys from two ships fired simultanously at you), or have a delay if you don't want to fire all eight tubes at once.
It has a full sensor suit now - capable of operating in passive mode and each ship of its class will be able to detect its own targets. Opinions are split on this: You could save some tonnage here by making a dedicated sensor ship, or you could leave it as it is and always have backup sensors so you're not blinded if your sensor ship(s) blow up.
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Here we go, I've revised the designs!
AMM Cruiser:
Baranda-A class Missile Cruiser 5,050 tons 328 Crew 961.72 BP TCS 101 TH 300 EM 0
2970 km/s Armour 10-26 Shields 0-0 Sensors 22/22/0/0 Damage Control Rating 5 PPV 8
Maint Life 8.24 Years MSP 595 AFR 40% IFR 0.6% 1YR 16 5YR 234 Max Repair 84 MSP
Magazine 519
Internal Confinement Fusion Drive E5M (3) Power 100 Fuel Use 50% Signature 100 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres Range 71.3 billion km (277 days at full power)
AMM Missile Launcher Mk I (8) Missile Size 1 Rate of Fire 10
MFC AM FC13-R1 (2) Range 13.9m km Resolution 1
1-Mosquito Mk III (519) Speed: 39,800 km/s End: 0.4m Range: 1.1m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 451 / 270 / 135
Active Search Sensor MR9-R1 (1) GPS 84 Range 9.2m km Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH2-22 (1) Sensitivity 22 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22m km
EM Detection Sensor EM2-22 (1) Sensitivity 22 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22m km
ASM Cruiser:
Viking-A class Missile Cruiser 8,150 tons 775 Crew 1516.72 BP TCS 163 TH 500 EM 0
3067 km/s Armour 10-36 Shields 0-0 Sensors 22/22/0/0 Damage Control Rating 19 PPV 40
Maint Life 9.27 Years MSP 1047 AFR 59% IFR 0.8% 1YR 22 5YR 329 Max Repair 84 MSP
Magazine 551
Internal Confinement Fusion Drive E5M (5) Power 100 Fuel Use 50% Signature 100 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 150,000 Litres Range 66.2 billion km (250 days at full power)
ASM Missile Launcher Mk I (8) Missile Size 5 Rate of Fire 30
MFC LR FC107-R60 (2) Range 107.3m km Resolution 60
5-Firestalker Mk I (47) Speed: 32,000 km/s End: 46.9m Range: 90m km WH: 6 Size: 5 TH: 192 / 115 / 57
5-Neutraliser Mk I (63) Speed: 24,000 km/s End: 20.8m Range: 30m km WH: 12 Size: 5 TH: 208 / 124 / 62
Active Search Sensor MR92-R100 (1) GPS 8400 Range 92.4m km Resolution 100
Thermal Sensor TH2-22 (1) Sensitivity 22 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22m km
EM Detection Sensor EM2-22 (1) Sensitivity 22 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22m km
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sorry to ask this, but it is a wicked pet peeve of mine :( do you use marks in your naming system? like you know anagor mk.II / anagor mk.IIA?
in anycase considering both of those ships is based off the same initial design you should (I think) have their names correspond.
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sorry to ask this, but it is a wicked pet peeve of mine :( do you use marks in your naming system? like you know anagor mk.II / anagor mk.IIA?
in anycase considering both of those ships is based off the same initial design you should (I think) have their names correspond.
I only use marks for things with the same base whose characteristics aren't easily distinguished from each other. The sensors don't need it, but missiles and launchers do.
But I keep ship names similar across the same function of classes. So the next ASM ship I have will be Viking-B. I actually built the AMM ship from the ground up, and to me it wouldn't make sense to use the same base name for ships with two different functions.
In any case, what do people think of those two designs of mine?
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1. ok
2.. I like you designs, but your asm missiles could be a bit bigger size-5 is what I use on my fighters lol
EDIT: not, of course, that your doing anything wrong but you could back a bigger punch for a little more room required
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Humm... Interesting. I'll test out this series and then probably go bigger based on experience! Thanks for the advice!
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I like to use Mk's when it's upgraded, like a new engine level or such, and variant -A's to signify "this one has onboard sensors" or "this one has slightly longer range". *shrug*
And I agree, serious ASM need to be ~size 5. Smaller really doesn't pack enough punch or enough range.
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OK, and how do others feel vis a vis Size 5 ASM? Also, more importantly, how do you all feel about my ship designs?
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Well I'd just say that your ships are good, every thing has been accounted for. The only thing is that, what are they? Cruisers, they're small enough to be frigates or destroyers you asm is like 8500k right? You can literally add another 10000 tons. Also furthering the subject of size, a size 5 IS effective it's just not cruiser material go up to like size 10, use the 5s for frigates.
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Just in case you get confused, class names are completely useless and are only good for classifying ships. You can have a 100 ton superdreadnought for all the game cares.
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Uhm, for the size of my ships, what's the proper 'ship type'? I have no sense of what the relative size is between frigate, dreadnought, cruiser, etc.
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Uhm, for the size of my ships, what's the proper 'ship type'? I have no sense of what the relative size is between frigate, dreadnought, cruiser, etc.
I'd guess Frigate or Cruiser. Though I'm not a naval expert, you can just give it a random class name/one that sounds cool/whatever. Consult wikipedia if you really care that much.
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Ok, let´s have a look
For ICF drives, they are quite slow. Not as big a problem with missile ships, as they are supposed to have the range to touch someone but it still might be an issue.
They have quite heavy armor for the size (those would be DDs/DDLs in my games and tincans don´t get a lot of armor in my book)
They also have a whole lot of maintenance parts. Could easily get away with half of it, given you have fuel for less than a year (yes, they will probably sit most of the time in orbit somewhere, but then there should be maintenance facilities, where they sit, so they won´t add time on their maint-clock).
The escort cruiser looks ok-ish.
The range of the res-1 active against size-6 and smaller missile should be around 1 mkm which is rather short, but it is in-line with the range of your AMMs. Personally, I like to engage hostile missiles somewhat farther out.
The missile cruiser looks good.
Given the size, 8 x size-5 launchers is quite good. Don´t let yourself being talked into bigger ones :)
Yes, large missiles pack a bigger punch, but each missile shot down by PD is a lot less damage dealt. Personally, I am in the "missile spam" camp. Size-4 and lots of ´em -- blot out the sun kind of lots.
I also avoid using several different missiles of the same size on one ship - or at all - simply for logistics reasons. It is a PITA to keep the battlefleets supplied with missiles as it is, no need to further complicate things. Also, if I have a long-range shipkiller, I intend to use it and stay out of the range of counterfire. Yes, there will be times, a short-ranged, heavy hitting missile might come in handy, but is it realy worth the trouble?
In addition, I can already hear your captains screaming in rage, when they have pounded the enemy´s shields down from long range and finally start to punch some holes in their enemy ships only to be told that the long-range stuff is all out any you have to close to short range to finish the job. Which will take half an hour and allow the enemy to recharge their ships _and_ blast away at you while closing.
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Steve decoupled ship designations from ship size because a WWI battleship masses about what a modern destroyer does.
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Corvette, Destroyer, Cruiser, Battleship, Dreadnaughts and other assorted 'superships'. I learned this hierarchy from playing Navyfield :P Destroyers are usually line ships, cheap and easy weapon platforms, battleships are expensive monsters that can pack a punch and endure one. Cruisers are a sort of hybrid, many people giving cruisers more speed.
Of course it's all arbitrary...
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For me it's always:
<8K Frigates/Corvettes - special purpose
~8k - Destroyers - Fast
~20k - Light Cruisers - Special purpose
~30k - Cruisers/Heavy Cruisers - Big firepower (bone of my fleet)
~50k - Battleships - DURABLE
~60k - Light Carriers
Yes, I like big ships ;D
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That's how I organize my ships usually with One battleship or carrier supported by a variety of cruisers or destroyers. But really size is relative. I'd also like to add up your search sensors 9.2m is right on top of you. Some ships can engage you from outside that diatance
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I use size-8 missiles but I always play with conventional start so to get WH-9 in the beginning, you need size. Personally I prefer to build a lot of smaller ships - my destroyers having as little as 2 launchers but I have plenty of them. But that's just personal preference.
In any case, I'd heartily recommend building a dedicated sensor ship. No armour, no shields, no weaponry, just massive sized active and passive sensors. Make it somewhere between, 7k-10k tons depending on your shipyards. Even with low tech level, sensors the size of 2,5k or so will reveal a big chunk of a solar system. You can keep them safely behind your battle line as well, as the AI will probably try to target them first.
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To the designs:
You could try to fine-tune their speed so they match. That's something I usually do, but it's not necessary unless there's an extreme difference between the two.
Their maintenance is still pretty high, but better than before.
Missile size 4 is just fine, if you ask me. My main ASMs are usually size 2 or 4, depending on my tech level, and fighters stock size 1s. I do have larger designs in size 6, 8 and 10, but those are either dedicated bombs, carriers, or LRMs. I have never had the feeling my missiles were too low in the damage department or really needed more size. With more smaller missiles I can easily saturate PD and they aren't as expensive as larger missiles for the same damage output.
To the classification:
I don't give a blork about tonnages. I usually designate my designs by their function. Your 8kt escort would be a frigate in my books and the 5kt ship a destroyer. From experience I can say that my frigates tend to go up to 8-10kt and stay on par with my destroyers. Cruisers often have a slightly larger tonnage and except for carriers I rarely go above 20kt.
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You can tell when you've maximized the efficiency of your ship's engine power at certain speeds that pop up per level. For example, Ion drives kind of 'peak' at about 4000 kilometers a second, with the next two stages down being 3750 km/s and 3333 km/s. Magnetoplasma drives have 5000km/s as their 'peak', ICF 6000km/s... It basically tacks on an extra 1000. The annoying thing is it doesn't remain stable over tonnage, so if you have a 9000 ton ship and you upgrade the engines you'll end up slapping on 750 more tons on it to get a flat speed of 5000km/s.
As for missiles, there's reasons to do either size: Smaller missiles tend to be more accurate, but either suffer from low range or low damage. Larger missiles are more inaccurate, but not only have bigger warhead capabilities but you can slap armor on them.
The best of both worlds is short-range, high damage, high accuracy small missiles packed as the second section of a long range, slow, armored missile, where they release the missiles outside of enemy PD range.
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Only one problem with the later designs you still have a maintenance life of 8.24 years. I aim for about 1 year, maybe 2 for a warship. Put the space saved in magazines.
The armour is very heavy, this is not a bad thing! but you could get away with a level of 5 or 6 .
Missile size your AMM's will kill any ordinary missile they will occasionally fail if there are armoured missiles however most NPR's do not use armoured missiles . Some of the spoiler races may cause problems.
For ASM's many people use size 5 and lower ASM's as it allow larger salvo sizes and faster reload times making overloading defenses easier. However larger missiles are a viable option (although I find the size 50 missiles some people use a bit silly for missiles ) Paericularly on PDC Launchers I use missiles up to about size 12.
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Holy smeg Andy one to two years!? I'm surprised your ships don't just spontaneously combust during combat! 8.4 is fIne bro unless u want to repair your ships every IRL hour or two
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Holy smeg Andy one to two years!? I'm surprised your ships don't just spontaneously combust during combat! 8.4 is fIne bro unless u want to repair your ships every IRL hour or two
I usually aim for 2 years or so with mine as well. The clock won't be ticking as long as they're stationed at one of my fleet bases anyway.
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I usually aim for 2 years or so with mine as well. The clock won't be ticking as long as they're stationed at one of my fleet bases anyway.
Yep, 2-3 years for me. I also go lower on warships' fuel endurance than for survey ships or freighters - even when deployed, they typically spend a lot of time sitting in one place....
John
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Seems many people put their warships at a point and then call on them as needed. I tend to use my warships as active patrols and long deep space jobs, so my ships get 10 or even 20 year maint. It suffers a bit in other areas, but I'm never afraid to move my ships somewhere and slug it out for the long haul, I know they'll trench in and keep fighting until their armor gets melted.
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agreed girlinhat my ships are at 10 years maint life. since my military follows a doctrine of have a small taskgroups designed to be operating in large areas (5-10 systems) I have them out for a while then call them back to earth or one of my outposts for overhauling.
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Comment on maintenance supply for warships.
I tend to not look at the estimated time at all. Instead I take the max repair value and have my on board supplies a minimum of twice that and sometimes three times. This allows for enough onboard capacity for combat repairs though damage control which will be at twice the component repair value. Set a conditional order to return to a colony or supplyship when the onboard supplies reach 30%. My extra solar patrol task groups have a military jump/command ship that doubles as a tanker and supplyship. Maintain an overhaul schedule of no greater than 3-4 years and your good to go.
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I have never lost a warship to maintenance problems, never even had one become combat ineffective due to failed systems, they suffer system failures if deployed away from base for several years but then repair them from their maintenance stockpiles, I often get ship deployed for 4-5 years without serious problem with a maintenance average of 1or 2 years. On occasion if a big system (jump drives or large sensors) fails I have had to transfer maintenance supplies from other ships in order to enable them to keep repairing further problems. I have never even needed to build dedicated resupply ships.
Survey ships and any other ships intended for really long term operations may have longer maintenance clocks but not warships.
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Not sure I should post this here, as it does have nothing to do with those cruiser designs, but as the discussion has sort of moved towards maintenance life and fleet doctrins, I thought "why not"
I am a firm beliver in "he who tries to defend everything, defends nothing" doctrin.
Repeat after me:
There is no overkill, only "Open fire!" and "I have to reload!"
I will not invite defeat in detail!
Each populated colony will get a few PDCs ASAP.
Each sector capital will have a strong battlefleet on station, ready to come down on any hostile alien like a ton of bricks.
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No but you just brought it away. Refocus: this thread is Only commenting on this guys ships and furthering the discussion of maintenance supplies
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The escort cruiser looks ok-ish.
The range of the res-1 active against size-6 and smaller missile should be around 1 mkm which is rather short, but it is in-line with the range of your AMMs. Personally, I like to engage hostile missiles somewhat farther out.
The missile cruiser looks good.
Given the size, 8 x size-5 launchers is quite good. Don´t let yourself being talked into bigger ones :)
Yes, large missiles pack a bigger punch, but each missile shot down by PD is a lot less damage dealt. Personally, I am in the "missile spam" camp. Size-4 and lots of ´em -- blot out the sun kind of lots.
I also avoid using several different missiles of the same size on one ship - or at all - simply for logistics reasons. It is a PITA to keep the battlefleets supplied with missiles as it is, no need to further complicate things. Also, if I have a long-range shipkiller, I intend to use it and stay out of the range of counterfire. Yes, there will be times, a short-ranged, heavy hitting missile might come in handy, but is it realy worth the trouble?
I agree with a lot of this... but in my own games, the size-6 missiles that I mount on my Fighters (in Box Launchers) are shorter-range and heavier-hitting than the size-6 missiles used by my warships. This doesn't cause much logistical confusion (since I don't mix missile types on the same ship... Carriers load one type, Cruisers the other), and it exploits the Fighter's high speed and small target size which allow it to close to optimum range while the missile Cruisers stand off at longer range.
Size-6 missiles are the largest ones that still show a minimal sensor signature... anything larger than that is easier to spot, as well as slower to load. I agree that smaller missiles tend to work better than larger ones... they offer more chance of overloading the enemy's PD as well as faster reload rates. Only my Minelayers carry really large missile tubes.
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Regarding missile sizes, my shipboard missiles tend to fall into two categories, siz1 AMMs and Siz4 or Siz5 ASMs, however I do also tend have a very large missile design (siz 24) which is carried by PDCs, minelayers (who have siz 24 tubes for mines anyway) & a Fighter or FAC which carries a pair of siz24 box launchers.
These have scored quite a bit of sucess as the small salvo size makes it difficult for defences to engage - particularly with some of the larger enemies - my first victory over the invaders was achieved through these bigger missiles.
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I generally use size 4 missiles on all fleet/fighters up to the Battlecruiser size who use size 6, i've never built bigger missiles - but then I've never actually built anything bigger than a battlecruiser - which in my game is 24kton. Maintenance is 2-3 years (aiming for two minimum in the design) - fleets spend much of their time at places with adequate maintenance bays - be it colonies, outposts or shipping, it will be a nodal point covering a sector of systems usually no more than 4 jump ponts away, altho as always it depends on the game/map/xeno activity etc. Recon and patrols is usually conducted by specialist ships with hefty sensor suites and a decent speed (usually fastest in the fleet) but again with 2-3 years maintenance, each of my fleets will have easily half a dozen recon ships with a couple attached, a couple out on patrol and perhaps a couple in overhaul
Sizewize - and this is just my take on it:
Corvette/Sloop [1-3kton]
Frigate [2-5kton]
Destroyer [5-8kton]
Light cruiser [8-12kton]
Cruiser [12-15kton]
Heavy Cruiser [15-20kton]
Battlecruiser [20+kton]
I have never built anything bigger in a warship than 24 or 25kton, but if I did next classes would be:
Battleship (historically just a slower more heavily armed battlecruiser - i take this the same way)
Dreadnaught (light, standard and heavy versions depending on tonnage)
Monitor (this is the Starfire designation, which i like)
As always as size markers are not reliant on your actual size its always fluid, a more heavily armed and armoured 3kton ship may be classed a light destroyer whereas a speedier lighter 5kton ship next to it is classed a frigate. I'd go with what sounds cool to you.
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Welp, I need to give these guys a try in action against my neighbours sometime soon. Seeing no major flaws, I'm gonna put these guys into production. (First gotta get my PDCs constructed)
Thanks for all of your feedback, folks!
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Here we go, I've revised the designs!
AMM Cruiser:
Baranda-A class Missile Cruiser 5,050 tons 328 Crew 961.72 BP TCS 101 TH 300 EM 0
2970 km/s Armour 10-26 Shields 0-0 Sensors 22/22/0/0 Damage Control Rating 5 PPV 8
Maint Life 8.24 Years MSP 595 AFR 40% IFR 0.6% 1YR 16 5YR 234 Max Repair 84 MSP
Magazine 519
Internal Confinement Fusion Drive E5M (3) Power 100 Fuel Use 50% Signature 100 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres Range 71.3 billion km (277 days at full power)
AMM Missile Launcher Mk I (8) Missile Size 1 Rate of Fire 10
MFC AM FC13-R1 (2) Range 13.9m km Resolution 1
1-Mosquito Mk III (519) Speed: 39,800 km/s End: 0.4m Range: 1.1m km WH: 1 Size: 1 TH: 451 / 270 / 135
Active Search Sensor MR9-R1 (1) GPS 84 Range 9.2m km Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH2-22 (1) Sensitivity 22 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22m km
EM Detection Sensor EM2-22 (1) Sensitivity 22 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 22m km
Oh man, I just realised. I should probably have more MFCs on this AMM ship, eh? Gah. Well, whatever, I'll include that in the next generation.
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3-4 missile tubes per MFC is good, I think.
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The only time you are going to want less than 3-4 amm launchers per firecontrol is if you are confident that you have a well over 100% interception chance against your enemies missiles. Although with your current set up you could ripple-fire 2 launchers from each control every 5 seconds.
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Oh man, I just realised. I should probably have more MFCs on this AMM ship, eh? Gah. Well, whatever, I'll include that in the next generation.
that would really be dependent on performance and the salvo density and number of salvos your facing regularly as well as what PD setting your using. If your using 1v1 and seeing salvos of less than 8 and getting 100% hit ratios... then you might need more MFC's. At a 2v1 setting that has you engaging with 2 amm's per missile in a single salvo, up to 4 missiles per cycle.
There are times I use PD missile suites with 15, 20, or even 25 launchers per MFC with a 5v1 setting.
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My classifications change during the game, much as classifications evolved in real life. I consider a "basic combat vessel" to be a destroyer, large and well equipped enough to hold it's own in smaller engagements, fast enough to be maneuverable and easily redeployed, and small enough to field and support in numbers.
My first combat ship is always classified as a destroyer, however depending on how long it takes me to deploy an actual combat ship it may only be 3000 tons, or as much as 6-7000.
Usually by the time I decide to upgrade my fleet technology my shipyards have gotten considerably larger, and because of that I can diverge into two different size categories, that's when I add the Cruiser. A Cruiser (for me) is similar to a Destroyer, but larger and it uses that extra mass to specialize in one way or another, generally in increased weapons. So a Cruiser would be larger than a destroyer, just as fast, more expensive, have much more firepower, but have the same or slightly more armor than a destroyer. At this stage my Destroyers are probably around 8k tons, while the Cruisers are around 12-14ktons.
In my next generation the Destroyers could be 12k tons, the Cruisers could be 18k tons, and I might introduce a Frigate if needed, at around 4-5k tons, or perhaps smaller. The Frigates generally have fairly specialized missions, hit and run, scouting, defense of systems that are unimportant or don't have the maintenance facilities to support larger vessels, escorts for fighters on their approach, etc.
So while a third generation Frigate may be very close in size to a first generation Destroyer (possibly even larger) that's intentional. I don't design a ship by tonnage, and then give it a classification, I decide what the ship's job is going to be, classify it, then design it as best as I can. Whatever size it is at the end of that, that's the size that class is for this generation of ship.
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To me, the fun part about this game is how the questions in this thread depend so much on other factors beyond ship design.
So, tonnage depends a lot on shipyard sizes, maybe even which slipways are available, and jump engine sizes. I'm in the early stages of a game building 4kt ships because I build some 4kt jump engines to get my survey ships out into the universe. But, now I'm getting jump gates build between the good systems my surveyors found, and I'm starting to be able to think about much bigger sizes. But with the proviso that those bigger ships would still only be useful in the systems with the jump gates.
Maintenance questions are the same way. You kinda have to ask yourself first where this ship is going to operate. If you are sending your ships out on long 5 year missions to go where no zwardnik has gone before, then they need more maintenance than the ships that I know from their size are designed to operate only in the systems connected by jump gates, and thus presumably always close to be able to be resupplied to top up their supply stocks and keep the parts from breaking down.
Maybe because I'm an engineer type, but to me the fun part of this game is trying to build ship designs that fit your circumstances and needs.
And like you, I'm in one of the first games I've gotten this far trying to build ships to fight against enemies I haven't seen yet. So, there's a natural uncertainty about whether what I'm building is good enough to fight against an unknown foe.
Did learn a few things from this thread. So thank you very much both to Atlantia for starting it and for everyone who joined in. I suspect my missile defense is of too short a range. I went for fast, small missiles with a range of only 200k km. Sounded like I heard some good tactical advice higher up that they like to engage incoming missiles further away than that.
I was just going through the 'big' versus 'small' missile debate on my own. I'd designed some size 12 missile and MIRV'ing drones for my planetary defenses. And then went ahead and designed a shipboard size 12 launcher just to give myself the option of moving these missiles out away from my planets. So, I was then debating between new ship designs that either expanded out then number of tubes firing my current size 4 missiles, or instead having a few tubes that could fire the big missiles out at an enemy. Last night, right before reading this thread, I'd already descided to go with the plan of smaller but more missiles. Hopefully that'll overwhelm any PD defenses with numbers. Although, if I get a shipyard free'd up, I might still put out at least a few of the size 12 big tube ships just so I can be more flexible with that missile stockpile.
Don't forget to think in terms of Task Groups instead of individual ships. The key seems to be in what combat power a group brings to a battle. You've already started that in terms of escorts and strikers and sensor ships. But you can also have a supply ship around restocking the fleet on those MSPs. Or tankers. Or ordinance ships. Sounds like that can be important to remember, especially if working under a size limit or if trying to keep your combat ships as small and as fast as possible. I just try to make myself think of the task group that will eventually be fighting instead of looking just at the class design on the screen in front of me.
Don't forget beam ships either. Like you, I think I tend to undersize my magazines. Especially since I was working, and still am for any offensive fleets, with a 4k jump engine limit (a 7. 5kt mil jump engine is being researched). But all this talk about magazine sizes also starts to reveal the advantages of a ship that doesn't need ammo. So, I've been trying to mix in some Beam ships into my construction plans. I've also got a couple of planets the surveyors have found nearby that are planetary nebula where missiles won't work anyways.
Names like Frigate and Cruiser are just for your own use. Make them whatever you like. You can type new ones on the list at the bottom if you want. So far, figuring I was doing little ships that fit through my little jump holes, I've been calling my Frigates, with the newer 7k designs being called Destroyers. But, that's just my own preferences and you can call them what you want. You can make Dreadnaughts be little patrol craft and save the ultra scary name of "Destroyer" for your future Death Star if you want. :)