First warship design

[caretsr (OP)]

Hello, new poster here.  I've finally been able to continue one game for more than a day without starting again, and I've just encountered aliens (or wrecks, but probably aliens too) and, therefore, designed my first warship.  Does anyone have any advice/guidance/criticisms to help?

Tribal class Destroyer    10,000 tons     851 Crew     1586 BP      TCS 200  TH 600  EM 1800
3000 km/s     Armour 6-41     Shields 60-300     Sensors 8/8/0/0     Damage Control Rating 30     PPV 22
Maint Life 10. 37 Years     MSP 991    AFR 80%    IFR 1. 1%    1YR 17    5YR 252    Max Repair 40 MSP
Magazine 532   

Ion Engine E5 (10)    Power 60    Fuel Use 50%    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 500,000 Litres    Range 180. 0 billion km   (694 days at full power)
Delta R300/10 Shields (24)   Total Fuel Cost  240 Litres per day

Size 1 Missile Launcher (12)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Size 2 Missile Launcher (5)    Missile Size 2    Rate of Fire 15
Missile Fire Control FC3-R1 (4)     Range 3. 8m km    Resolution 1
Missile Fire Control FC38-R100 (1)     Range 38. 4m km    Resolution 100
Size 2 'Dagger' Anti-ship Missile (100)  Speed: 15,000 km/s   End: 75m    Range: 67. 5m km   WH: 4    Size: 2    TH: 115 / 69 / 34
Size 1 'Dagger' Anti-missile Missile (332)  Speed: 24,000 km/s   End: 15. 6m    Range: 22. 5m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 256 / 153 / 76

Active Search Sensor MR32-R100 (1)     GPS 4000     Range 32. 0m km    Resolution 100
Active Search Sensor MR3-R1 (1)     GPS 40     Range 3. 2m km    Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH1-8 (1)     Sensitivity 8     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  8m km
EM Detection Sensor EM1-8 (1)     Sensitivity 8     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  8m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Thanks.

Caretsr

[Hawkeye]

Your ASMs have about twice the range of your firecon --> not exactely good
Same goes for your active anti-ship sensor. If you are operating a dedicated scout and this is just a backup, in case the scout buys it, then it is ok, otherwise, you realy want some longer range on it.

Maintenance supply are a whole lot. 10 years maint. life, wow! Personally, I aim for 2 to 3 years.
Fuel is also very plenty. You should be able to cut that in half. Personally, I aim for a range of 60 to 90 billion km. If there are targets further away, I´d rather establish fleet support bases half way out or so.

I would put the saved mass in ASM-launchers/mag space, as throw weight seems a little light.


Other than that, it looks quite decent


PS.
Your AMM-FCs have a range of 3.8 mkm against 50 ton targets. Against size 6 and smaller missiles, the range will be a lot less, probably around 800 k. As long as you are aware of that, all is ok, just wanted to mention it (This means, your AMMs have way more range than they will ever need)

[Thiosk]

This design is the classic Kitchen Sink approach.

I think its fine for a first try expedition to a neighboring system.  That being said:

it is big.  Big things need a lot of power to move.  So you need a lot of engine.  Ion drives are weak.
If the range is short, it doesn't need 2 years worth of fuel-- just a little fuel is fine.  I usu. put enough on board for 175 days, rather than 700.
You have enough shield, but the shield tech is pretty low-- your mileage may vary, but most folks around here turn their nose up at low tech shield, prefering to put the weight into armor.

The reason its so big is that you're doing triple duty:
you're shooting down incoming missilees, launching missiles, and detecting things.
I think you'd be better off with 3 ships, 1 AMM ship, 1 missile ship, and one sensor ship!

Finally, your ranges on the scanners are wonky.  This is another reason for sensor ships-- you can get bigger sensors.

Active Search Sensor MR32-R100 (1)     GPS 4000     Range 32. 0m km   Resolution 100
Active Search Sensor MR3-R1 (1)     GPS 40     Range 3. 2m km    Resolution 1

Now look at your missiles...

Size 2 'Dagger' Anti-ship Missile (100)  Speed: 15,000 km/s   End: 75m    Range: 67. 5m km   WH: 4    Size: 2    TH: 115 / 69 / 34
Size 1 'Dagger' Anti-missile Missile (332)  Speed: 24,000 km/s   End: 15. 6m    [/b]Range: 22. 5m km[/b]  WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 256 / 153 / 76

The anti ship missile can actually go twice as far as you can "see."  The firecontrols have similar range to the sensors.  I would suggest having a firecontrol that can shoot further than the missile range (you can always load with better missiles, later), and sensors that can see AT LEAST 3 TIMES the range of the missiles.  

Last, check out the thermal and EM sensors: to see a thermal signal strength 1000 (your ship is 600), you have to be 8 mkm away.  Thats really, really close-- your AMMs can hit it from there.  Beef up the thermals and put them on a dedicated ship.

edit: psh ninja'd by like 2 min    
By all means though: take it next door!  It can functionally do everything, so tell us how you do! 

[Panopticon]

It isn't a bad ship by any means, perhaps not optimized for all the roles you seem to be giving it, but an ok generalist approach.

Missile vs sensor range is a fun balancing act. There are actually advantages to outranging your sensors and fire control, specifically to compensate for enemy ECM. Something to consider would be dropping the range of the missiles and increasing their speed/agility or warhead, as it stands they are pretty slow.

[caretsr (OP)]

Right, following advice/requests I sent in a fleet of 4 Tribals.  They got smashed.  first they encountered 2 1000 ton ships.  Had to reassign my anti ship missiles to an anti missile fire control to target them, but otherwise they were fairly unproblematic.  continued advancing and encountered about eight to ten ships, sizes 6900 tons and 13800 tons.  My missiles weren't even halfway to them by the time my fleet was dead.  I think the ones that killed me were precursors.

In response to my kicking and advice above, I have designed several new ship classes.  Once again, feedback and criticisms appreciated.

Firstly, my offensive missile ship

Victory class Destroyer    6,000 tons     526 Crew     896. 2 BP      TCS 120  TH 360  EM 0
3000 km/s     Armour 5-29     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 22     PPV 20
Maint Life 2. 75 Years     MSP 187    AFR 144%    IFR 2%    1YR 36    5YR 533    Max Repair 40 MSP
Magazine 530   

Ion Engine E5 (6)    Power 60    Fuel Use 50%    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 150,000 Litres    Range 90. 0 billion km   (347 days at full power)

Size 2 Missile Launcher (10)    Missile Size 2    Rate of Fire 15
Missile Fire Control FC76-R100 (2)     Range 76. 8m km    Resolution 100
Size 2 'Dagger-II' Anti-ship Missile (265)  Speed: 18,000 km/s   End: 41. 7m    Range: 45m km   WH: 4    Size: 2    TH: 138 / 82 / 41

Active Search Sensor MR32-R100 (1)     GPS 4000     Range 32. 0m km    Resolution 100

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Secondly, an anti-missile variant

Agincourt class Destroyer Escort    8,000 tons     747 Crew     1552. 4 BP      TCS 160  TH 480  EM 0
3000 km/s     Armour 4-35     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 16     PPV 15
Maint Life 3. 91 Years     MSP 728    AFR 85%    IFR 1. 2%    1YR 76    5YR 1133    Max Repair 160 MSP
Magazine 355   

Ion Engine E5 (    Power 60    Fuel Use 50%    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres    Range 90. 0 billion km   (347 days at full power)

Size 1 Missile Launcher (15)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Missile Fire Control FC38-R1 (5)     Range 38. 4m km    Resolution 1
Size 1 'Dagger-II' Anti-missile Missile (355)  Speed: 24,000 km/s   End: 15. 6m    Range: 22. 5m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 256 / 153 / 76

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Finally, a dedicated sensor ship

Ark Royal class Fleet Scout    5,000 tons     426 Crew     961 BP      TCS 100  TH 300  EM 0
3000 km/s     Armour 6-26     Shields 0-0     Sensors 80/80/0/0     Damage Control Rating 14     PPV 0
Maint Life 3. 67 Years     MSP 480    AFR 50%    IFR 0. 7%    1YR 55    5YR 828    Max Repair 320 MSP

Ion Engine E5 (5)    Power 60    Fuel Use 50%    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 150,000 Litres    Range 108. 0 billion km   (416 days at full power)

Active Search Sensor MR32-R100 (1)     GPS 4000     Range 32. 0m km    Resolution 100
Active Search Sensor MR256-R100 (1)     GPS 32000     Range 256. 0m km    Resolution 100
Thermal Sensor TH10-80 (1)     Sensitivity 80     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  80m km
EM Detection Sensor EM10-80 (1)     Sensitivity 80     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  80m km

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

I think my plan would be a ratio of 2:3:1 of attack, defense and sensor ships, although advice on this front would also be appreciated.

[shadenight123]

if they're coming, you could also build PDC's...
then tractor-ship them (or freighter move them, not sure which works) so, you can renounce to engines and use them as space-still stations. (they won't budge, but with enough armour and sensor control they should do fine as bases (and refueling places))

[Ashery]

Are those two 100 resolution sensors on the sensor ship?

Your missile hit rates also seem a bit low. Your AMMs won't even have a 50% hit rate on your own ASMs. I guess your ASM's aren't too bad considering your tech level, but the AMMs will definitely have issues.

[Brian Neumann]

PDC's can be prefabricated, shiped (each module needs 5 cargo holds) and then assembled with planetary industry (including engineer brigades).  You could also design a ship without engines to act as a base, tow it near the jump point and use that for on sight firepower.

Brian

[caretsr (OP)]

Are those two 100 resolution sensors on the sensor ship?

. . . 

*facepalms*

Thanks for noticing that.

Also, while I'm here, even though this may be the wrong section (though I'm not sure where the right one would be), what sort of tech level to start using shields and what sort of beam weapons would be useful in turrets (and relatedly, what tracking speed should I be looking for with turrets at the moment?)

Thanks for all the advice so far

Caretsr

[Thiosk]

You know, if its precursor... you should probably consider just quarentining the system til tech improves.  You'll need a lot more than size 2 missile to punch through.  I use size 6 missiles, of much higher tech, and still drained my inventory shooting down three 13 k ships.

For tech, its all about opposition.  Special races have an advantage.  Nprs are probably closer to par, so your primitive ion ships can be useful against them.  But not too useful against precursors.

Most stories I hear about early game ships fighting precursors are gauss equipped fighters shredding things at jump point defense.

[Brian Neumann]

Turret tracking speed should be at least 4 times your base fire control speed.  Also look to see what the final size comes out to be.  If it is a fraction I often find I can up the tracking speed significantly without going over into another hull space.  If you can do this then when you update your fire control you do not have to change out the turrets on the same ship.  It won't be perfect but it can often make a big difference on how long your fleet is in drydock being worked on.  For what tracking speed you need against those ships, I prefer to get my max fire control speed (x4 size) up to at least 40% of the incomming missile speed.  With any good crew grade bonus this gives me about a 50% hit rate.  This is not a cheap research project so it may take a while to get there.

Brian

[ardem]

I don't mind the kitchen sink approach to battle wagons, in my Brightstar game 10-20K are most my ships. Slow big brawlers with missiles, shields and armour. Mix them in with a couple of specialist roles you have a potent fleet. Also flexibility you can divide up a fleet and engage multiple threats.

Also big ships take more punishment. In you designing a missile fleet speed is not as important compared to a laser fleet. But you need a good awac system, to counter the slowness. So I don't view this as a bad design, it based on how you want to play and the tactics you use, there is no right or wrong. Justing winning or losing.

[Charlie Beeler]

As pure missileboats these designs are usable.  Their big failing point is the speed of the missiles they carry.  With Ion drive tech available you should be seeing a minimum of 30,000 kps for anti shipping missiles and at least 45,000 kps for antimissile missiles.  To achieve these speeds you allocate 50% of your msp to engine for ASM's and 75% for the AMM's.  You've concentrated too much on range at the expense of your to-hit probabilities. 

If your missile tech is close to the same development level you should have Fusion-boosted Fission Warheads(level 4/strength 5 per msp) or better and at least Missile Agility 48 per msp.  With this tech you can allocate .8 for the ASM warheads with the rest in a balance of fuel and agility to maximize your preference of to-hit chance and range.  For AMM's it's .2 msp to warhead, .1 msp to fuel and the rest balanced between engine and agility for maximized to-hit.  Keep in mind that these are not hard and fast rules, just designs approaches that have been successful for me.


The fire controls for these missiles is a matter of taste.  MFC's that match the missile range and others prefer ranges that allow for EW degradation that still allows maximum missile range control are two of the more common ASM MFC design protocols.  For AMM's again some prefer too have the MFC match the missiles maximum range and other prefer an MFC range that should allow first intercept at AMM maximum range.

Personally I use size 4 missiles for ship-to-ship combat with size 2 being used for smallcraft (ie fighters and gunboats).  ASM's get larger for PDC's and larger warships.