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Offline Mormota (OP)

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My first real navy - Help?
« on: November 28, 2011, 01:55:35 PM »
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Baden class Escort    5 100 tons     412 Crew     1282.5 BP      TCS 102  TH 500  EM 0
4901 km/s     Armour 3-26     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 2     PPV 10
Maint Life 3.43 Years     MSP 1314    AFR 104%    IFR 1.4%    1YR 170    5YR 2557    Max Repair 280 MSP
Magazine 550   

Magnetic Confinement Fusion Drive E4 (4)    Power 125    Fuel Use 40%    Signature 125    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 100 000 Litres    Range 88.2 billion km   (208 days at full power)

Abwehr-2 Launcher (5)    Missile Size 2    Rate of Fire 10
Abwehr-2 Fire Control (1)     Range 92.4m km    Resolution 1
Abwehr-2.5 (275)  Speed: 62 500 km/s   End: 4.8m    Range: 18m km   WH: 1    Size: 2    TH: 833 / 500 / 250

Abwehr-2 Active Sensor (1)     GPS 280     Range 30.8m km    Resolution 1

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

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Bremse class Fighter    415 tons     15 Crew     122.8 BP      TCS 8.3  TH 75  EM 0
9036 km/s     Armour 1-4     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 4
Maint Life 0 Years     MSP 0    AFR 83%    IFR 1.2%    1YR 16    5YR 244    Max Repair 56 MSP

FTR Magnetic Confinement Fusion Drive E400 (1)    Power 75    Fuel Use 4000%    Signature 75    Armour 0    Exp 25%
Fuel Capacity 15 000 Litres    Range 1.6 billion km   (50 hours at full power)

Fighter Laser Cannon (1)    Range 120 000km     TS: 9036 km/s     Power 4-4     RM 3    ROF 5        4 4 4 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
Fighter Laser Fire Control (1)    Max Range: 120 000 km   TS: 25000 km/s     92 83 75 67 58 50 42 33 25 17
Bremse reactor (1)     Total Power Output 5    Armour 0    Exp 5%

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes

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Emden class Carrier    13 250 tons     947 Crew     2196 BP      TCS 265  TH 750  EM 0
2830 km/s     Armour 5-49     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 6     PPV 65.76
Maint Life 3.87 Years     MSP 5621    AFR 234%    IFR 3.3%    1YR 594    5YR 8912    Max Repair 480 MSP
Hangar Deck Capacity 4250 tons     

Magnetic Confinement Fusion Drive E4 (6)    Power 125    Fuel Use 40%    Signature 125    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 300 000 Litres    Range 101.9 billion km   (416 days at full power)

Triple Meson 320 Bereich-Abwehr Turret (2x3)    Range 320 000km     TS: 20000 km/s     Power 48-15     RM 32    ROF 20        1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
Meson 320 Fire Control (1)    Max Range: 320 000 km   TS: 20000 km/s     97 94 91 88 84 81 78 75 72 69
Magnetic Confinement Fusion Reactor Technology PB-1 (1)     Total Power Output 40    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Strike Group
10x Bremse Fighter   Speed: 9036 km/s    Size: 8.3

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

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Graf Spee class Command Ship    2 500 tons     197 Crew     688.6 BP      TCS 50  TH 250  EM 240
5000 km/s     Armour 5-16     Shields 8-400     Sensors 30/55/0/0     Damage Control Rating 2     PPV 0
Maint Life 12.28 Years     MSP 1344    AFR 25%    IFR 0.3%    1YR 16    5YR 247    Max Repair 150 MSP
Flag Bridge   

Magnetic Confinement Fusion Drive E4 (2)    Power 125    Fuel Use 40%    Signature 125    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 100 000 Litres    Range 180.0 billion km   (416 days at full power)
Theta R400/16 Shields (2)   Total Fuel Cost  32 Litres per day

Active Command Sensor-1 (1)     GPS 14000     Range 154.0m km    Resolution 100
Thermal Command Sensor-1 (1)     Sensitivity 30     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  30m km
EM Command Sensor-1 (1)     Sensitivity 55     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  55m km

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

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Prinz Eugen class Cruiser    5 750 tons     421 Crew     1244.5 BP      TCS 115  TH 500  EM 0
4347 km/s     Armour 10-28     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 2     PPV 15
Maint Life 4.41 Years     MSP 2271    AFR 132%    IFR 1.8%    1YR 189    5YR 2830    Max Repair 280 MSP
Magazine 555   

Magnetic Confinement Fusion Drive E4 (4)    Power 125    Fuel Use 40%    Signature 125    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 100 000 Litres    Range 78.2 billion km   (208 days at full power)

Krieg-2 Launcher (5)    Missile Size 3    Rate of Fire 15
Krieg-2 Fire Control (1)     Range 83.2m km    Resolution 100
Krieg-2.5 (185)  Speed: 20 800 km/s   End: 60m    Range: 74.9m km   WH: 9    Size: 3    TH: 145 / 87 / 43

Krieg-2 Active Sensor (1)     GPS 28000     Range 308.0m km    Resolution 100

ECCM-1 (1)         Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

So that is my first real fleet, but I have no idea how effective it will be. I am now aware that beam fighters are not really possible, so don't point that out. ;)

I often see that people recommend size 4 ASMs, but I really don't see why. I value my 15 second reaload time which I can use to overwhelm the enemy PD over a slightly increased destructive potential. I mean, I'm currently researching warhead strength per MSP 8, that would require 3.125 MSP for a  strength 25 warhead, and I really don't think my warhead should be any weaker if I'm making a larger missile.

What I am trying to say is this: I don't understand why I would make a stronger warhead when it would probably be slower and as such less likely to overcome point defenses. Any other help is welcome on overall fleet composition/ship design.

Thank you in advance!
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: My first real navy - Help?
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2011, 02:19:41 PM »
The advantage of strong warheads is armor penetration, particularly against light/marginal armor levels.  A strong warhead or beam weapon can knock out lighter craft in a single hit;  weaker warheads tend to have to sandpaper away armor, resulting in higher time-to-kills for the same total damage.    That's not always a problem, but hey missiles can get expensive. It's impossible to judge which approach is better against a particular enemy until you actually fight them; NPR point defence strength varies wildly.

Size 4 is popular because it's a pretty good balance between quantity of missiles (small) and individual strength of the missiles.  Particularly at lower tech levels than you are designing your navy at.  You can't really fit an effective warhead below that.  Or well you can, but at that point you might as well resort to spamming AMMs.  A lot more volume and the same amount of sandpapering. 

Overwhelming the enemy through volume of fire is certainly a viable strategy.  The other way you could do it is by mounting enormous numbers of minaturized or box launchers to devastate the enemy with a single salvo.    The salvo method is vulnerable to strong AMM coverage, whereas standard launchers tend to be vulnerable to beam point defence. It's really a matter of preference.  Though AMMs are still pretty good against standard launchers, heh. 

Beam fighters are doable, they just arn't as good as missile fighters. If you want a beam fighter, you should reduce the fuel stowage (to minimum) and cut down the size of the fire control.   400 tons is just too heavy.   You don't need as much range or tracking speed as you have, in particular. Also, that looks like a 12cm laser - just use a 10cm.  Speed is all that will keep you alive and you can reduce the reactor too. 

The real problem for small beam ships is the fire control...   I find pure beam platforms ineffective unless they're also able to conduct missile defence, and to multirole you need a size 8 or 12 fire control, which just doesn't fit on anything below 4000 tons effectively.   And that pretty much goes for fighters too, though they have the advantage of the fighter tracking speed bonus.

You are light on sensor capability for your tech level.  You should devote a lot more tonnage to it, either by upsizing the Graf Spee or your carrier.   Fighter strategies definitely need very strong active and passive sensor coverage. You will also want your carrier to be a lot faster. It makes them expensive, but carriers are the ultimate long range combatants - if they're fast enough they always have the option to withdraw. If they arn't fast enough, well.... they can get splattered pretty easily.

Also you don't seem to have any jump capability.

EDIT - I hadn't noticed the massive search sensor on your cruiser. That helps, but it's paranoically huge for that ship.  I would downsize the search sensor to 100km or so at most, to go with the missiles.  If you want area search you should put it on a dedicated ship, the carrier, or a jumpship.  Use the saved space for missile magazines.  You seriously can never have enough missiles on your combat ships. 


If you want ideas try opening the "Space Race" game.  The "Daring" is an example of a strong missile defence ship and the "Oracle" is an example of a paranoically capable scoutship.  The "Redoubtable" is a decent covers-all-the-bases sensor platform.    You should try to decide if you want to be sneaky at all or go in with sensors hot at all times.  Passives are nice but strong actives can render them pointless in a military squadron... if you don't care who can see you. 
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 02:40:26 PM by TheDeadlyShoe »
 

Offline Din182

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Re: My first real navy - Help?
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2011, 10:28:54 PM »
Escort needs more anti-missile missiles, in my opinion.
Fighters should be a little bit smaller if possible.
Carrier needs more fuel and engineering spaces and doesn't need mesons. You might also want to make it as fast as the cruiser.
The command ship will probably want better sensors. And that little shield won't do anything. Get rid of it.
The cruiser looks fine to me.

The reason you are recommended to use size 4 missiles, is that at low tech, missiles smaller than that are ineffective, and you want to keep good backwards compatibility. But you are at medium tech, so your missiles can be smaller. Of course, if you make your missiles bigger, they can have a higher to hit, which is good against fast enemies. Overwhelming the PD is useless if you can't hit them anyways.
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Offline Vynadan

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Re: My first real navy - Help?
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2011, 10:25:58 AM »
Fleet:
- One thing that struck me first was the greatly varying speeds of your designs, especially the carrier will render about half your fleet's engines useless. I'd suggest equalising your max speeds - This isn't necessary, but as long as you operate in the fleet all surplus engines are 'wasted' tonnage, since you can't fly faster than the slowest ship. Round speed and tonnage values help for this, but aren't mandatory.
- Your fleet is not jump capable. You might want to design an additional tender to guide the fleet through jump points, but with combat fleets I'd rather suggest putting a jump drive on the largest military ship (usually the carrier) and having sufficient numbers of these to jump the majority of your fleet in a squadron transit.
- You have weak ECCM and no ECM. Both of these can help greatly, especially in a missile based fleet that relies on range, but I take it that your tech just isn't that far advanced into the electronic warfare branch.
- Judging from the amount of MSP, you've added maintenace storages on top of a couple engineering spaces. Maintenance storages don't reduce the failure rate but merely keep more replacement parts stockpiled. They also take a lot of space - if you replace the storages tonnage with engineering spaces, you'll probably gain a longer deployment time by simply preventing the failure the storage would have fixed. (Sole exception being the carrier, that should carry some supplies for the entirely supply-less fighters)

Escort:
- Sufficient magazines to fire 110 volleys, but with a very low tube count. Unless you intend to field many escorts, I'd suggest upping the number of tubes (and perhaps the magazine). For five tubes, I think the magazine is large enough.
- Fire control is severly oversized for the missile range. You might want to consider saving space on the design with a smaller fire control.

Cruiser:
- A very strong sensor for a main combat ship. Sensors are both expensive, space consuming and a huge impact on the failure rates of a ship, so exchanging it for a backup or at least smaller sensor should save space and costs.
- Ten rows of armour. While I understand that the large sensor will probably guide enemy fire onto the cruiser first and it is supposed to be the main combat ship, I can't fathom the large difference between the other ship's armour and your cruiser. Your command ship or your carrier are both very viable targets (large sensors and largest tonnage), so allocating your armour more equally among your ships might help in the long run (as the AI *will* spread its fire across your fleet, although it prefers closer, larger, hotter and sensor ships first)
- Sufficient magazine space for 27 volleys. I'd rather increase the number of tubes (and the magazine) than field many of these cruisers, especially as they feature above mentioned large sensor suite and armour.

Command Ship:
- The sensors of your command ship are ill-suited for its purpose. You have one resolution 100 sensor that doesn't reach as far as your cruiser, no long range AMM sensor and no way to detect smallcraft (resolution ~20). That it's the only ship with passive sensors is the only reason for this design to even exist in your fleet.
- The maintenance supplies seem oversized for this ship, as it shows a four times longer deployment time possibility as the rest of your ship, unless it's supposed to double as a supply ship for the fleet?
- For a command ship I'd say the armour is a little low, although I've elaborated on this part in the cruiser section already. I'd put the large sensor into this ship and up it's armour quite some.
- The shields are quite weak. 8 points of shield strength might absorb two missile hits, or (which is more likely) less. They also take 400 seconds to recharge, and only seldomly does a battle in space last long enough for that to recharge your shields. I'd suggest either upping the shield strength significiantly (20-100 strength), or leaving it out entirely, depending on your shield tech.

Carrier:
- Your carrier carries very little fuel. Even if it wouldn't consume any fuel itself, it could refuel its 10-fighter squadron only twice before there's nothing left. Now, your fighters won't always use up their whole fuel reserve, but neither do you go in with 100% full fuel storages after flying to the battlefield. As your fighters are beam fighters, they'll stay out in space longer, though, and take more fuel than missile fighters.
- You have no reactors on the carrier to power your meson turrets. I'd suggest putting meson turrets either on a beam escort or your main escort design, if you wish to combine AMM and turret functions. Regardless, the turrets are entirely useless on this design as they have no power to fire.

Fighter:
- Your fighters are heavy, but this can hardly be changed with beam armed fighters. I'd suggest using missile fighters instead, but for beam fighters you could still downsize the laser and fire control, if you either use reduced size lasers, 10cm focals, or adjust the firecontrol some.
- As beam fighters tend to stay in space for quite a while, I'd add a fighter sized engineering space to them. It at least prevents any spontanous failures right after launch and allows them to actually stay in space comfortably.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 10:34:17 AM by Vynadan »
 

Offline MattyD

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Re: My first real navy - Help?
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2011, 10:42:53 AM »
The firecontrol on the fighter will only work at the slowest of turn speed / firecontrol, so you can drop the x4 modifier to x2 (12500m/s) which might save a little weight.

I'm about to build a beam fighter as I recently to deal with a problem recently encountered that drained me of all my missiles in a rather tense few minutes. If I can outrange the foe and outspeed it I should be able to steadily pick them off as they head towards my retreating fleet. My design will be similar to yours techwise but with a reduced size laser x0.75. It is a design for a specific target though and will be largely ineffective against anyone with AMMs.
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Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: My first real navy - Help?
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2011, 11:28:13 AM »
I think the problem with the reduced size 10cm lasers is that you're giving up the principal advantages of a beam combatant. It does give you some much needed tonnage savings but at that point you might as well be using rockets.

Although I was thinking about a halfsize 15cm fighter earlier. Or even 20cm.    DPS goes right out the window but the armor penetration is brutal.    Sorta meson-like. 
 

Offline Mormota (OP)

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Re: My first real navy - Help?
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2011, 11:42:50 AM »
I'm thinking of scratching laser fighters and using microwave fighters instead. Is that a viable strategy? I must also say that I appreciate all the input given, thank you very much!
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: My first real navy - Help?
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2011, 11:49:58 AM »
There's no real difference in design terms, since microwaves are still 3 HS- same as 10cm lasers.  But if the fighters live any length of time you can be pretty sure of mission-killing the entire enemy fleet. Which is always hilarious. 

Another alternative is meson fighters.  Still 3 HS.  Similar, slower mission kills but can actually kill enemy ships. 

« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 12:56:28 PM by TheDeadlyShoe »
 

Offline Mormota (OP)

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Re: My first real navy - Help?
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2011, 11:58:47 AM »
Another alternative is meson fighters.  Still 3 HS.  Similar, slower mission kills but can actually kill enemy ships. 

I intend to assign fighters more of a support role, that's why I gave them lasers: To make lots of small-ish holes in the enemy's armour, and thus my missiles would likely hit those holes. Microwaves would disable enemy sensors and fire control, but mesons are an actual ship-killing role. I don't want my fleet to depend on fighters to do the killing, because I don't expect a lot of them to survive a mission.
 

Offline jRides

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Re: My first real navy - Help?
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2011, 07:57:41 PM »
Maybe look into standardising your fleet a little: equalise the speed across the fleet, if you have for example 1 engine per 1000 tons then an 8 engine ship at 8000 tons will travel at the same max speed as a 15 engine ship at 15,000 tons. Missile sizes as well possibly as the logistics of production and supply if there is a number of different missile types where one size will do will grate in the long run.

Also, as has been said before I would be a little more ruthless in your ship design, for example your carrier is a carrier, all it needs is stuff that will help deliver its payload (your fighters) so thats hanger space, munitions storage (if your fighters are using missiles), fuel and maintenance storage, once thats taken care of think about its defence up to the cut off point - the cut off point will be the jump tenders maximum jump size.

I've never used anything other than missiles on fighters, but you are using fighters differently than I do (which is as the main combatant of my navies) so i cant really comment on laser or meson designed fighters, i would be interested to hear about how you get on with them.
 

Offline Gidoran

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Re: My first real navy - Help?
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2011, 07:16:33 AM »
As a random note that could increase your effectiveness in missile combat with larger missiles, take a look at these.

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Roanoke class Missile Destroyer    14,400 tons     1441 Crew     2516.35 BP      TCS 288  TH 1440  EM 600
5000 km/s     Armour 6-52     Shields 20-300     Sensors 8/14/0/0     Damage Control Rating 7     PPV 66
Maint Life 3.76 Years     MSP 765    AFR 236%    IFR 3.3%    1YR 85    5YR 1269    Max Repair 56 MSP
Magazine 792   

Pratt & Whitney RR80 Magnetoplasma Drive (18)    Power 80    Fuel Use 70%    Signature 80    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 580,000 Litres    Range 103.6 billion km   (239 days at full power)
Gamma R300/14 Shields (10)   Total Fuel Cost  140 Litres per day

Arbalest Mk. 160 CIWS (1x6)    Range 1000 km     TS: 16000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit
Mk 6 Guided Missile Launcher (11)    Missile Size 6    Rate of Fire 60
IN/SPG-01A Missile Fire Control (11)     Range 144.0m km    Resolution 150
RGM-120B Thunderbolt II Anti-Shipping Missile (132)  Speed: 31,600 km/s   End: 38.5m    Range: 73m km   WH: 8    Size: 6    TH: 158 / 94 / 47

IN/SPS-02A GAEDAR Suite (1)     GPS 8400     Range 96.0m km    Resolution 150
IN/SPD-04A Missile Detection Sensor (1)     GPS 56     Range 7.8m km    Resolution 1
IN/SQR-06A Thermal Sensor (1)     Sensitivity 8     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  8m km
IN/SDR-05A Electromagnetic Sensor (1)     Sensitivity 14     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  14m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes


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La Fayette class Missile Frigate    8,000 tons     706 Crew     1381.8 BP      TCS 160  TH 800  EM 600
5000 km/s     Armour 4-35     Shields 20-300     Sensors 1/14/0/0     Damage Control Rating 4     PPV 24
Maint Life 3.76 Years     MSP 432    AFR 128%    IFR 1.8%    1YR 48    5YR 718    Max Repair 56 MSP
Magazine 684   

Pratt & Whitney RR80 Magnetoplasma Drive (10)    Power 80    Fuel Use 70%    Signature 80    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 350,000 Litres    Range 112.5 billion km   (260 days at full power)
Gamma R300/14 Shields (10)   Total Fuel Cost  140 Litres per day

Mk 6 Guided Missile Launcher (4)    Missile Size 6    Rate of Fire 60
IN/SPG-01A Missile Fire Control (4)     Range 144.0m km    Resolution 150
RGM-120B Thunderbolt II Anti-Shipping Missile (114)  Speed: 31,600 km/s   End: 38.5m    Range: 73m km   WH: 8    Size: 6    TH: 158 / 94 / 47

IN/SPS-02A GAEDAR Suite (1)     GPS 8400     Range 96.0m km    Resolution 150
IN/SPD-04A Missile Detection Sensor (1)     GPS 56     Range 7.8m km    Resolution 1
IN/SDR-05A Electromagnetic Sensor (1)     Sensitivity 14     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  14m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

What I discovered through testing a while back was that if you assign a single launcher to a single fire control and repeat that over and over, you get greater hit potentials with fewer missiles. Point defense can only go after a single salvo at a time, so it allows a single destroyer to overwhelm an enemy fleet. My destroyer task forces currently have two of the Roanokes per and I've yet to see anything last more than 2 or 3 salvos because they're just not killing any of my missiles. The La Fayettes had an almost more successful career than the Roanokes have so far, simply because they're cheap as all get out and effective. Sure, they only have 4 tubes, but if you have 3 pumping out missiles there's little the enemy can do to stop them.

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Offline Vanigo

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Re: My first real navy - Help?
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2011, 12:57:02 PM »
You don't actually need one fire control for each tube, actually. You can stagger your fire, launching one missile per firecon every five seconds. Assign one tube to the firecon, fire, run five seconds, assign another tube, run five seconds, etc. Don't take the reloading tubes off, that way once you're out of tubes, you can just leave it and they'll all fire as they reload. With the 60 second reload on your Roanokes, you could launch 12 individual missiles per reload cycle with just one fire control.
 

Offline Yonder

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Re: My first real navy - Help?
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2011, 01:01:42 PM »
You don't actually need one fire control for each tube, actually. You can stagger your fire, launching one missile per firecon every five seconds. Assign one tube to the firecon, fire, run five seconds, assign another tube, run five seconds, etc. Don't take the reloading tubes off, that way once you're out of tubes, you can just leave it and they'll all fire as they reload. With the 60 second reload on your Roanokes, you could launch 12 individual missiles per reload cycle with just one fire control.

I am guessing that spreading out your salvos over that much time will eliminate all of the benefit from minimizing how many missiles your enemies destroy per salvo. For example if your enemy has a single quad turret with really good accuracy then launching 12 missiles in one salvo will lead to 4 of them getting destroyed. Launching 12 missiles in 12 salvos at the same time will lead to 1 of them getting destroyed. Launching 12 missiles one at a time will lead to all of them getting destroyed.
 

Offline blue emu

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Re: My first real navy - Help?
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2011, 02:24:10 PM »
On the other hand, if the opponent is using 3 vs 1 (or more) AMM PD, firing single-missile salvos will run him out of AMMs much faster.
 

Offline Gidoran

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Re: My first real navy - Help?
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2011, 03:37:02 PM »
Ripple firing would give similar enough results, but take a lot more finicking on my end and I believe make it easier for staggered PD to handle them. Besides, it's already annoying enough having to manually bind each FC to a tube since it won't do that for me automatically, and I don't want to have to do that every time I get into a fight.
"Orbital bombardment solves a myriad of issues permanently. This is sometimes undesirable."
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