My very first Battlefleet

[Sapo (OP)]

So, after 6 years of R&D, my first finished military designs are ready to go into mass production (but we will be starting with a more modest production, sadly, we're not that rich).   Here are the blueprints, I'd like to have the thoughts of more experienced player before I order my shipyard to start retooling. 

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Wellington class Destroyer    25 000 tons     648 Crew     5081.24 BP      TCS 500  TH 1200  EM 0
4800 km/s     Armour 4-76     Shields 0-0     Sensors 24/24/0/0     Damage Control Rating 46     PPV 69.56
Maint Life 4.06 Years     MSP 4573    AFR 138%    IFR 1.9%    1YR 444    5YR 6660    Max Repair 900 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Flight Crew Berths 13   
Hangar Deck Capacity 1000 tons     Magazine 738   

Panda Aircraft Engine 1200EP/2.5kt-827mL/EPH MPDmil (2)    Power 1200    Fuel Use 82.67%    Signature 600    Exp 15%
Fuel Capacity 5 000 000 Litres    Range 43.5 billion km   (105 days at full power)

Kazakov&Sulayman Twin 33mm Gauss Autocannon Turret Mdl52 (2x6)    Range 30 000km     TS: 12000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 3    ROF 5        1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
CIWS Mdl48 (2x6)    Range 1000 km     TS: 12000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit
Sulayman FC S03 36-12000 H70 Mdl52 (1)    Max Range: 72 000 km   TS: 12000 km/s     20 17 13 10 7 4 0 0 0 0

Size 2 Missile Launcher (75% Reduction) Mdl50 (16)    Missile Size 2    Rate of Fire 30
Size 16 Missile Launcher (25% Reduction) (8)    Missile Size 16    Rate of Fire 12000
Saleh Research MFC30-R1 H70 Mdl50 (3)     Range 30.7m km    Resolution 1
Bran-Vered "Assegai" ASM 2-4-2 Mdl49 (32)  Speed: 32 000 km/s   End: 1.1m    Range: 2.2m km   WH: 4    Size: 2    TH: 138/83/41
Kazakov "Arrow" AMM 2-1-2.4 Mdl51 (145)  Speed: 51 200 km/s   End: 0.8m    Range: 2.4m km   WH: 1    Size: 2    TH: 256/153/76
Bran-Vered "Baphomet" 16-25-25 Torpedo Mdl52 (24)  Speed: 40 000 km/s   End: 10.4m    Range: 25m km   WH: 25    Size: 16    TH: 160/96/48

Fry-Webster Electronics Industries ASS MR25-R01 H70 Mdl49 (1)     GPS 320     Range 25.6m km    MCR 2.8m km    Resolution 1
Ayasha Techsystems DS TH3-24 H70 Mdl52 (1)     Sensitivity 24     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  24m km
Ayasha Techsystems DS EM3-24 H70 Mdl52 (1)     Sensitivity 24     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  24m km

ECCM-1 (1)         ECM 10

Strike Group
2x Kingfisher MkIIIa Interceptor   Speed: 11451 km/s    Size: 4.89
1x Seadevil MkI Recon Fighter   Speed: 5600 km/s    Size: 10

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposesAnd that the flagship version :

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Duguesclin class Destroyer Leader    25 000 tons     648 Crew     5181.24 BP      TCS 500  TH 1200  EM 0
4800 km/s     Armour 4-76     Shields 0-0     Sensors 24/24/0/0     Damage Control Rating 41     PPV 69.56
Maint Life 3.44 Years     MSP 4015    AFR 161%    IFR 2.2%    1YR 517    5YR 7762    Max Repair 900 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Flight Crew Berths 13   
Flag Bridge    Hangar Deck Capacity 1000 tons     Magazine 738   

Panda Aircraft Engine 1200EP/2.5kt-827mL/EPH MPDmil (2)    Power 1200    Fuel Use 82.67%    Signature 600    Exp 15%
Fuel Capacity 5 000 000 Litres    Range 43.5 billion km   (105 days at full power)

Kazakov&Sulayman Twin 33mm Gauss Autocannon Turret Mdl52 (2x6)    Range 30 000km     TS: 12000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 3    ROF 5        1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
CIWS Mdl48 (2x6)    Range 1000 km     TS: 12000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit
Sulayman FC S03 36-12000 H70 Mdl52 (1)    Max Range: 72 000 km   TS: 12000 km/s     20 17 13 10 7 4 0 0 0 0

Size 16 Missile Launcher (25% Reduction) (8)    Missile Size 16    Rate of Fire 12000
Size 2 Missile Launcher (75% Reduction) Mdl50 (16)    Missile Size 2    Rate of Fire 30
Saleh Research MFC30-R1 H70 Mdl50 (3)     Range 30.7m km    Resolution 1
Bran-Vered "Assegai" ASM 2-4-2 Mdl49 (32)  Speed: 32 000 km/s   End: 1.1m    Range: 2.2m km   WH: 4    Size: 2    TH: 138/83/41
Kazakov "Arrow" AMM 2-1-2.4 Mdl51 (145)  Speed: 51 200 km/s   End: 0.8m    Range: 2.4m km   WH: 1    Size: 2    TH: 256/153/76
Bran-Vered "Baphomet" 16-25-25 Torpedo Mdl52 (24)  Speed: 40 000 km/s   End: 10.4m    Range: 25m km   WH: 25    Size: 16    TH: 160/96/48

Fry-Webster Electronics Industries ASS MR256-R100 H70 Mdl52 (1)     GPS 32000     Range 256.0m km    Resolution 100
Ayasha Techsystems DS TH3-24 H70 Mdl52 (1)     Sensitivity 24     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  24m km
Ayasha Techsystems DS EM3-24 H70 Mdl52 (1)     Sensitivity 24     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  24m km

ECCM-1 (1)         ECM 10

Strike Group
2x Kingfisher MkIIIa Interceptor   Speed: 11451 km/s    Size: 4.89
1x Seadevil MkI Recon Fighter   Speed: 5600 km/s    Size: 10

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
If you are looking for the change between the two variants, I just removed 5 engineering spaces to make room for a glorious flag bridge and lowered the resolution on the ASS.   They are the same otherwise.   For unknown reasons, I can't use the Duguesclin as blueprint for the Wellington in my shipyard, even though the Duguesclin cost 100 more BP.   But building the Duguesclin in a drydock designed for the cheaper Wellington is fine.  .  .    The guys at the shipyard must be English or something, I have no idea.   

Anyway, here are the design for their strike group :

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Kingfisher MkIIIa class Interceptor    245 tons     2 Crew     71.3 BP      TCS 4.89  TH 28  EM 0
11451 km/s     Armour 1-3     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 1.2
Maint Life 21.97 Years     MSP 46    AFR 1%    IFR 0%    1YR 0    5YR 3    Max Repair 42 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 0.1 months    Spare Berths 2   
Magazine 8   

Brentano 56EP/2x50t-2.382L/EPH MPDftr (1)    Power 56    Fuel Use 238.22%    Signature 28    Exp 17%
Fuel Capacity 5 000 Litres    Range 1.5 billion km   (37 hours at full power)

Size 2 Box Launcher (4)    Missile Size 2    Hangar Reload 15 minutes    MF Reload 2.5 hours
Adams-Blake MFC2-R5 (1)     Range 2.6m km    Resolution 5
Bran-Vered "Assegai" ASM 2-4-2 Mdl49 (4)  Speed: 32 000 km/s   End: 1.1m    Range: 2.2m km   WH: 4    Size: 2    TH: 138/83/41

Fry-Webster Electronics MR2-R5 (1)     GPS 56     Range 2.0m km    Resolution 5

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes


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Seadevil MkI class Recon Fighter    500 tons     9 Crew     146.4 BP      TCS 10  TH 28  EM 0
5600 km/s     Armour 1-5     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/24/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 0.6
Maint Life 16.64 Years     MSP 92    AFR 4%    IFR 0.1%    1YR 1    5YR 9    Max Repair 42 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 0.5 months    Spare Berths 3   
Magazine 4   

Brentano 56EP/2x50t-2.382L/EPH MPDftr (1)    Power 56    Fuel Use 238.22%    Signature 28    Exp 17%
Fuel Capacity 45 000 Litres    Range 6.8 billion km   (14 days at full power)

Size 2 Box Launcher (2)    Missile Size 2    Hangar Reload 15 minutes    MF Reload 2.5 hours
Adams-Blake MFC2-R5 (1)     Range 2.6m km    Resolution 5
Kazakov "Arrow" AMM 2-1-2.4 Mdl51 (2)  Speed: 51 200 km/s   End: 0.8m    Range: 2.4m km   WH: 1    Size: 2    TH: 256/153/76

Ayasha Techsystems ASS MR25-R100 H70 Mdl52 (1)     GPS 3200     Range 25.6m km    Resolution 100
Ayasha Techsystems DS EM3-24 H70 Mdl52 (1)     Sensitivity 24     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  24m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes
The entire Task Group will be composed of one flagship, 4 destroyers, a wing of 10 interceptors and 5 recons. 
As a noob without any combat experience in that game, my combat doctrine is to hide if possible or, if not, shoot a lot of big missiles at the ennemy then run away if it is still moving, and these ships have been designed around that idea. 

I was thinking to use boom and zoom tactic for them : find a target either with a recon or with the long range active sensor on the flagship (or, most likely : by being attacked somewhere), enter an orbit of 24m km of the target, launch 40 size 16 torpedos in his face, get out, reload, repeat if needed.   The interceptors and PD are here to protect them from anything fast enougth and - hopefully - small enougth to chase them like missile or fighters and the recon can stay behind and use his passive EM sensor to keep an eye on the ASS and shields of the now battle-ready ennemy while - hopefully again - being small enougth himself to go under their radar.   (and if not, well.  .  .   that's why I have five of them)

They probably are looking crap to a veteran player and they may go down in flame at the first encouter but I'm pretty proud of my babies.   I think they will be working well together.   It feel like each ship can perform well on its own but become exponentialy dangerous once in a TG and that each TG will also become exponentialy dangerous the more of them I'll have. 

[83athom]

The only problems I have with this is that the missiles and your sensors have a really, really short range. For general purpose missiles, try to aim for a range of 30m-70m km. I like different size missiles for things and people here have different preferences when it comes to "standard" ASM size. I like size 3-4 because they can pack a punch while keeping numbers, others use size 1-2 for true volume of fire, others use size 6 because that is the smallest size for sensor detection. Torpedoes, on the other hand, usually have 150m km + range and are anywhere above size 10 for most.

[AL]

I feel like you have a pretty good idea of what's what from those designs. A few suggestions that I have:
Since those ships are always going to be operating in groups, I would personally replace all the CIWS with more guass turrets. CIWS will only protect the mounting ship whereas your guass will protect your whole task group.
25mkm is fairly short-ranged as missiles go - I usually aim for around the 100mkm mark (at least back when I used missiles a lot more).
You will also be wanting quite a few more launchers - even with a 5 ship taskgroup, you salvo density is looking pretty low (although I'm also something of a culprit of this shortcoming in my designs). Perhaps you could try replacing the size 16 launchers with a load of the smaller size 2's? The larger missiles, while fun, tend to get shot down more easily and with your already low salvo density that is something you can't really afford.
At the ship size that you are working at, it would be a good idea to bolt on a few more layers of armour. From what I gather most players usually stay below ~20 000 tons for their main combatants, especially for their first fleet. Losing a couple 5000 ton escorts doesn't matter as much as losing one of your 25 000 ton destroyers so you should look to protect your investments a bit more. At the sacrifice of "expendability", your larger ships are more efficient with things such as stacking armour which you should be trying to capitalise on as much as possible.

Something to think about; how completely do you want to optimise your ships for combat? Depending on your design goals, it may be worth using a larger number of small engines for more survivability, and using (much) higher engine multipliers. Ie, you could use max multiplier engines and only carry enough fuel to last you 10bkm. That should give you enough endurance to last through almost any battle you get into, and outside of battle you can get around with the help of tankers or large carriers.
On the other hand, it is also possible to use those large, bulky, but fuel efficient (essentially commercial grade) engines on your military ships. This usually gives you a huge range and independence from tankers, and relieves some pressure if you are facing fuel shortages. For missile combatants, having a high speed isn't as vital as for beam warships so this is worth considering. I am personally a fan of these high efficiency engines, but I don't think too many other forum users here are.

Just remember, sometimes the points we give you are more personal opinion rather than hard and fast rules. The best way to go is to take your designs into battle and see for yourself what works and doesn't work.

Also, note that shipyards with no previous class assigned can retool to any class instantly.

[CharonJr]

And i would get rid of the engineering on the fighters. For hit and run tactics they should be back in their hangars soon enough.

[sneer]

good overall designs but
my personal preference due to previous combat experiance is that missile salvo vs fleet tonnage is too small
double the amount of twice smaller ASM missile should have better overall efficiency when faced anything with real PD in most cases and size 8 ASM are still in upper size range of what players use in Aurora

[Zincat]

Not much time now, will write more later if I can.

Not bad ships but... 4 quick things if you plan to start production really soon:

- As said, those missiles are quite short range. Keep in mind, most enemies will shoot you from 80-100 millions km away or more. You will NOT win the long range war like that. If that was your plan from the start though, and you plan on being shorter range that the enemy, survive, get close and kill it, they're fine. They ARE big missiles though, so they might be shot down more easily.

- Those ships are very lightly armored. At that size, I don't leave home with less than 6-7 layers of armor. I fear those are too fragile, if your anti long-range missile defenses do not hold you might lose them.

- I do not use CIWS on military ships that operate in fleets. Keep in mind CIWS only defend the ships they are on. They are more intended for civilian ships or lone ships.
6 ships with 4 CIWS each? Each ship is defended by 4 CIWS
6 ships with 4 gauss (the superior choice if you research it a bit) or laser or railgun turrets? Each ship is defended by 24 turrets.

- And finally, at that tech level the tracking speed is too slow I think. 12000 km tracking speed is not very good if you find serious opposition. Say, 25000km/sec fast missile against 12000km/sec tracking speed. Not very high intercept chances.

[Sapo (OP)]

Back to the drawing board. 

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Wellington class Destroyer    25 000 tons     590 Crew     5107.04 BP      TCS 500  TH 1200  EM 0
4800 km/s     Armour 6-76     Shields 0-0     Sensors 24/24/0/0     Damage Control Rating 36     PPV 69.56
Maint Life 2.76 Years     MSP 3320    AFR 192%    IFR 2.7%    1YR 627    5YR 9408    Max Repair 900 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Flight Crew Berths 13   
Hangar Deck Capacity 1000 tons     Magazine 738   

Panda Aircraft Engine 1200EP/2.5kt-827mL/EPH MPDmil (2)    Power 1200    Fuel Use 82.67%    Signature 600    Exp 15%
Fuel Capacity 5 000 000 Litres    Range 43.5 billion km   (105 days at full power)

Kazakov&Sulayman Twin 33mm Gauss Autocannon Turret Mdl52 (2x6)    Range 30 000km     TS: 12000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 3    ROF 5        1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
CIWS Mdl48 (2x6)    Range 1000 km     TS: 12000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit
Sulayman FC S03 36-12000 H70 Mdl52 (1)    Max Range: 72 000 km   TS: 12000 km/s     20 17 13 10 7 4 0 0 0 0

Size 2 Missile Launcher (75% Reduction) Mdl50 (16)    Missile Size 2    Rate of Fire 30
Size 8 Missile Launcher (25% Reduction) (16)    Missile Size 8    Rate of Fire 6000
Saleh Research MFC30-R1 H70 Mdl50 (3)     Range 30.7m km    Resolution 1
Bran-Vered "Assegai" ASM 2-4-2 Mdl49 (32)  Speed: 32 000 km/s   End: 1.1m    Range: 2.2m km   WH: 4    Size: 2    TH: 138/83/41
Bran-Vered "Forlorn" 8-12-25 Torpedo Mdl50 (48)  Speed: 40 000 km/s   End: 10.4m    Range: 25.1m km   WH: 12    Size: 8    TH: 173/104/52
Kazakov "Arrow" AMM 2-1-2.4 Mdl51 (145)  Speed: 51 200 km/s   End: 0.8m    Range: 2.4m km   WH: 1    Size: 2    TH: 256/153/76

Fry-Webster Electronics Industries ASS MR25-R01 H70 Mdl49 (1)     GPS 320     Range 25.6m km    MCR 2.8m km    Resolution 1
Ayasha Techsystems DS TH3-24 H70 Mdl52 (1)     Sensitivity 24     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  24m km
Ayasha Techsystems DS EM3-24 H70 Mdl52 (1)     Sensitivity 24     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  24m km

ECCM-1 (1)         ECM 10

Strike Group
2x Kingfisher MkIIIa Interceptor   Speed: 11451 km/s    Size: 4.89
1x Seadevil MkI Recon Fighter   Speed: 5600 km/s    Size: 10

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
The weapon system is what I originaly intended to use on this ships, but a 80 missiles salvo seemed a bit too much like a missile spam for my taste.  On the other hand, it's not realy a "spam" with a 6k ROF.  So I'm going to go for that.  I realised quite early that a long range missile spam would be the most effective tactic against pretty much everything in the game at my tech level, that's why I decided to go for short range alpha strike instead.

The other reason for the short range of the missile is that my sensor tech suck.  I can't make a good sensor that isn't stupidly huge right now.  It's not like I can't find room for them on a dedicated ship but I don't want to spend 10k+ research point on a good MFC/ASS duo right now, I prefer to use those 10 000 RP on the next tier of sensors and I feel like I can get away with it for now.

Still I think I'll keep my missiles optimised for speed, accuracy and payload rather than endurance.  Utlimately, I'd like my destoyer missiles to be between 50 and 75 mkm.  The size 16 torpedos are probably going to be used on 500t one-shot FAC and stay relatively short-ranged (probably something around "suicidally short-ranged"  .  Because I still think they are hilarious.

I also removed a bit of internal fat to make room for a better armor, the Maint Life is a bit crappy as a result but I guess that's something to be expected for a first gen technology.  As armor tech increase I'm probably going to go for 8 layers and a good shield and leave it at that, I don't expect a DD to be able to tank a lot of damages, they are assassins, not brawlers.

For the relatively small salvo size I plan to use 2 or 3 size 1 decoy per size 8 torpedo (by decoy I mean a size 1 missile with the warhead replaced by an ASS to shine on the ennemy's radar) for now, I can use my interceptors as striker if I really need to launch something ahead to screen the torpedos.  Idealy, destroying the ennemy's anti-missile platforms and preparing the ground for an attack from the destroyers should be the job of the 5 to 10kt armored frigate fleed that I'm going to start designing.  They are the guys who are going to do all the dirty work on the frontline while the destroyers wait behind to launch an attack on the bigger ennemy warship.

I have to go right now, I also had something to say in defence of my CIWS but it will have to wait.

[Sapo (OP)]

Is it okay to DP two days later ?

Anyway, for the CIWS, the idea was that with my current beam tech I can't reliably hit the side of a barn, from the inside, let alone an ASM moving at 20 000 km/s.    So the CIWS seemed like a safer bet even if I lose the ability to protect nearby ships.    Now that it's said, Zincat's comment made me realise that I'm only at 3000 km/s TS for my beam FC and turret gears, so 12 000 km/s is in fact the best tracking speed I can achieve with the current tech.    Research teams are already working on fixing that shortcoming and the beam weapons and CIWS shown on the current design are going to change.   
(I'm thinking of removing everything and replacing it with 4 85% gauss in 2 twin turrets )

My assault frigate will be using beam weapons so that's something I was going to start researching anyway, the production of the destroyers have been postponed to 2055 at least to give me time to offer them better "pew pew" capabilities.    Although I'm going to slowly start producing the engines, sensors and missile systems on Earth right now.   

On a side note, the Kingfisher is now a Kingfisher MkIIIb.    I followed the advice of CharonJr and removed the engeenring, wich gave me enough room to add a second layer of armor.   

[Zincat]

Gauss turrets are also fine. Much better than CIWS for fleet use, in fact.

The reason I do favor lasers is that they can double up as anti-fighter weapons. And also, anti-ship if something gets close. But from a purely PD point of view, gauss is in fact THE best turret once you research it a bit.

You can also use AMM of course, if you have the tech for it. In large quantities they're very good. Personally I don't like them very much for balance reasons and such (I think they are too useful considering how they can be used with basically no penalties against ships as well). But it is a personal preference.

[Catman115]

Well since i have no idea where else to ask this i will ask here.  The OP seems to be doing the same thing i was doing in my other game, putting 2 high powered engines onto his ships.  However, when i read through the examples in the wiki i have literally never seen any of them do this.  I usually see low powered engines in groups of 8-12 on most of the example ships there, even on capital class craft.  Can anyone tell me the difference between these two ways to put engines on board starships and is doing the High powered but low numbers better than doing the low powered but high numbers way?

[drejr]

Large engines have better fuel economy and are more resistant to damage. Their downsides are that they're expensive to research and if one is destroyed you lose a greater proportion of your speed. They also require more engineering to support.

The biggest advantage of small engines in my opinion is that allow easily standardized fleet speeds. They're easier to repair but also easier to destroy.

I usually compromise with size 20-25 engines.

The most extreme example of small engines I've seen was an almost endearingly bad NPR I fought in my last game. They used massive numbers of boosted size 4 engines. I think their carrier had 60 of them. They had a tendency to start massive cascades of secondary power explosions.

[JacenHan]

I haven't been on the wiki recently, but the designs you saw may have been pre-6.00 designs, before you could change engine size.

Looking at some of the example ships on the wiki, that seems to be the case.