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Topic Summary

Posted by: Ynglaur
« on: December 29, 2019, 08:47:59 AM »

That's a pretty good org structure for US Armored Cav Regiment.  A few notes:
  • The artillery batteries in the ACR in the 90s had 8 guns, but artillery batteries outisde of ACRs had only 6.  My memory is a little fuzzy, but I believe the ACRs transitioned to 6-gun batteries in the late 90s.
  • Typically, an ACR would pick up the following assets from Corps or Army: a full artillery battalion; an MP company; a full engineer battalion; a full signal battalion; a Civil Affairs element (platoon?); a Psych Warfare element (platoon?).
Posted by: Alsadius
« on: December 27, 2019, 07:12:08 PM »

It's not strictly 21st century, but I have a copy of Tom Clancy's Armored Cav, which discussed an American armored cavalry regiment circa 1994 in pretty good detail. Here's the summary(with apologies to anyone who actually knows this stuff if I screw it up somewhere):

Combat Equipment
- M1 Abrams main battle tank: 120mm main gun, 3x machine guns as backup weapons.
- M2/3 Bradley infantry/cavalry fighting vehicle: 25mm cannon and 2x TOW missiles as main weapons, 1x machine gun. One version carries half a dozen soldiers, the other uses that space for extra kit.
- M113 armored personnel carrier: Carries 12 troops, 1x machine gun.
 - M106: 81mm mortar version of M113
- M270 MLRS: Rocket artillery
- M109 Paladin: Self-propelled artillery
- AH-64 Apache attack helicopter: 30mm cannon, various missiles
- UH-60 Blackhawk helicopter: Mostly a transport helicopter, but can carry 2x machine guns, or even a few missiles.
- OH-58 Kiowa Scout/Attack Helicopter: Mostly a scout, but it mounts rockets or missiles for attack.
- Various infantry equipment (rifle, pistol, AT missile, AA missile, etc.)

Non-Combat Equipment
- Fox NBC reconnaissance vehicle: Scans for nuclear/biological/chemical attacks.
- M88 armored recovery vehicle: Picks up broken tanks and takes them back to the shop.
- M9 armored combat earthmover: It's a bulldozer.
- HMMWV: Variants do everything from carry guns to moving troops to acting as field ambulances.
- M1070/M1000 tank transporter: Moves tanks around outside of combat so they don't break down so much.
- M939 5-ton truck: Carries supplies
- HEMTT truck: Carries more supplies

Formations
All of these seem to be one to the regiment, except for the cavalry squadron, of which there are three. Note that the personnel counts are only provided for some of these, not all.

Regimental HQ:
2x Bradley, command configuration
11-15x APC, command version
"A number of HMMWVs"

Cavalry Squadron:
HQ Troop (2x Bradley, 6x command APCs, various unspecified support vehicles)
3x Cavalry Troop (see below)
1x Tank Company (see below)
1x Artillery Battery (see below)
Total: 53 officers, 339 NCOs, 499 enlisted = 891

Cavalry Troop:
HQ section (1x each Abrams, Bradley, APC)
2x scout platoon (6x Bradley each, each Bradley with 2x foot scouts on board)
2x tank platoons (4x Abrams each)
Mortar section(2x M106)
"12 supporting wheeled and tracked vehicles"

Tank Company:
HQ Section (2x Abrams)
3x tank platoon (4x Abrams each)

Artillery battery:
8x Paladin
8x Paladin-chassis ammo carriers

Air Cavalry Squadron:
HQ troop (3x Blackhawk, 3x EW-equipped Blackhawk, 1x Kiowa, "support element similar to its ground counterpart)
3x Aero Scout Troop (6x Kiowa, 4x Cobra slated to be replaced with Apaches)
2x Attack Helicopter Troopes (4x Kiowa, 7x Cobra slated to be replaced with Apaches)
1x Transport Helicopter Troop (15x Blackhawk)
Maintenance Troop (unspecified)

Support Squadron:
HQ troop ("a few trucks, and HMMWVs")
Medical Troop (8x HMMWV ambulance, 8x M113 ambulance)
Maintenance Troop (22x 5-ton tractors, 5x M88 recovery vehicles, 4x 5-ton wreckers, 3x M113 maintenance trucks)
Supply and Transportation Troop (33x 5-ton tractors, 26x 5-ton trucks, 22x HEMTT fuel tankers, 6x tank transporter)
Total = 802 personnel

Combat Engineer Company:
12x M113 APCs
6x M9 bulldozers
3x bridging vehicles
3x combat engineer vehicles (old tanks with bulldozer blades and "demolition guns")
6x 5-ton dump trucks
Various excavating and entrenching vehicles
Total = 220 personnel

Military Intelligence Company:
Unspecified equipment, 152 personnel

Chemical Company:
6x Fox
7x M113-based smoke generators
Various detection/decontamination equipment
Total = 78 personnel

Air Defense Section:
6x HMMWV-based AA vehicles (mounting missiles and a machine gun)

On top of this, some additional units are often provided from higher-level commands. Clancy gives the example of an armored cavalry regiment during Desert Storm that had attached a field artillery brigade, a helicopter battalion, a combat engineer battalion, a MP company, and a "personnel services company", and says it was more like a small division than a regiment.

This book is a bit more frustratingly incomplete than I recall, but it's enough to give a good sense of what the unit looks like even so. Or at least, I think it is.
Posted by: Garfunkel
« on: November 20, 2019, 11:51:48 AM »

Just bumping this topic in case a poster has more stuff to add - we could always use more countries here and more detail with formations as long as they are sourced from the real world and not just your imagination  ;D

And also for Steve, for this:
At work I have been doing some coding using JSON files to read complex hand histories for poker hands into a C# structure (which has been fun because in my job I don't get to be hands-on as often as I would like). This might be a good format for the type of open-ended constructs that ground formations entail. I could come up with a suitable JSON file format that players can create and Aurora can read straight into unit classes and formation templates.

if and when that JSON file format is ready, releasing it to us would be grand so that we could get a head start in making the templates even before C# comes out.
Posted by: Noble713
« on: November 05, 2018, 02:14:24 PM »

Russian formations -these are valid for the mid-2000s after the big reorganizations that happened in the 1990s. If someone has access to more up-to-date organizations, please share.

This is still reasonably accurate for ~2018 Russian battalions/brigades. Here's the Defense Intelligence Agency's "Russian Military Power" doc from 2017, which talks about some of the recent organizational efforts: http://www.dia.mil/Portals/27/Documents/News/Military%20Power%20Publications/Russia%20Military%20Power%20Report%202017.pdf?ver=2017-06-28-144235-937
pgs51-56 have some brigade personnel number charts and text descriptions of Russia's reorganization post-2008 (the war with Georgia).

Quote
Putting in companies later when I find a reliable company level TO&E

Have you looked at FM 7-100.4 "Opposing Force Organization Guide"? Chapter 4 is what you want for Battalion/Company/Platoon info, I think...
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/7-100-4/fm7-100-4.pdf


Regarding Chinese TOE.....their military is constantly evolving. I've kept a pretty close eye on them (partly out of professional interest) and I can't keep track of how their brigades are structured half the time. The latest is their transition to "combined arms brigades", which is about 4 infantry battalions with a lot of supporting assets. They also maintain a small force of VERY large and robustly-equipped tank/mechanized divisions that don't seem to be downsizing to the brigade model. Lemme see what I can dig up from my bookmarks later.... Previously they were organized on the Russian/Soviet model so that's a decent stand-in in the absence of better information.
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: October 12, 2018, 04:59:37 PM »

I can't seem to find any reliable company level TO&E for other Russian and Chinese formations, so for them it might just be best to use the equivalent NATO ones.

Steve, is the stuff I've made useful or would you like it to be in a different layout or format? Would it help if I made a list of currently active brigade level formations around the world? Or is there something else we can do to help with this part of the project?

I think what you have is fine. Once I start creating real world ground templates I will begin getting into this in more detail.

At work I have been doing some coding using JSON files to read complex hand histories for poker hands into a C# structure (which has been fun because in my job I don't get to be hands-on as often as I would like). This might be a good format for the type of open-ended constructs that ground formations entail. I could come up with a suitable JSON file format that players can create and Aurora can read straight into unit classes and formation templates.
Posted by: Garfunkel
« on: October 12, 2018, 03:18:38 PM »

I can't seem to find any reliable company level TO&E for other Russian and Chinese formations, so for them it might just be best to use the equivalent NATO ones.

Steve, is the stuff I've made useful or would you like it to be in a different layout or format? Would it help if I made a list of currently active brigade level formations around the world? Or is there something else we can do to help with this part of the project?
Posted by: Hazard
« on: October 05, 2018, 04:56:03 AM »

You don't want one guy carrying the only 2 barrels you've got anyway. It's one thing if you've got only 1, in which case the risk of point failure is impossible to avoid, but if you've got two?

Better to have 2 guys split the ammo between them and each carry a barrel instead of losing one to enemy action or an accident and have a useless gun.
Posted by: backstab
« on: October 05, 2018, 02:19:59 AM »

We had the whole section carringythe thing ... spare barrel, tripod, ammo ....
Posted by: Father Tim
« on: October 04, 2018, 01:47:44 PM »

... nothing worse than getting stuck with the 50 cal receiver while your mate carries the barrel

Doesn't your mate carry two barrels for the Browning?
Posted by: backstab
« on: October 04, 2018, 04:04:07 AM »



It's the Israeli knock-off but you get the idea. Especially as these formations are Generic NATO/Western ones. The point is that the vehicle is not armed with the mortar, hence why I'm using infantry: light bombardment instead.

[hr

That mortar in the picture isn’t a 60mm mortar ... looks more like an 81 or 120 ... totally understand that you didn’t mean mounted on ... it’s just that 60 mm mortars are normally given to light infantry companies and man packed every place ... hell , I’ve humped some of that stuff over a fair distance in my time in uniform ... nothing worse than getting stuck with the 50 cal receiver while your mate carries the barrel
Posted by: Garfunkel
« on: October 04, 2018, 12:33:37 AM »



It's the Israeli knock-off but you get the idea. Especially as these formations are Generic NATO/Western ones. The point is that the vehicle is not armed with the mortar, hence why I'm using infantry: light bombardment instead.



Chinese formations - note that this is what little is know of the new PLAGF brigade model. It seems that both Russians and Chinese are adopting the NATO model, though they are few steps behind.

Tank Company
10 Type 99
2 Supply vehicles

Mechanized Company
10 Type 04
2 Supply vehicles

Artillery Battery
6 Type 05
2 Supply vehicles

SAM Company
6 Type 92
2 Supply vehicles

Putting in other companies when I find reliable TO&E, the above are tentative only



Tank Battalion
3 Tank Companies
1 Type 08

Mechanized Battalion
4 Mechanized Companies
1 Type 08

Artillery Battalion
3 Artillery Batteries
1 Type 08

AA Battalion
3 SAM Companies
1 Type 08



Tank Brigade
4 Tank Battalions
1 Mechanized Battalion
1 Artillery Battalion
1 AA Battalion

Mechanized Brigade
4 Mechanized Battalions
1 Tank Battalion
1 Artillery Battalion
1 AA Battalion

Posted by: Hazard
« on: October 03, 2018, 04:52:13 PM »

Just because 60mm mortars get a humvee assigned to the squad handling them doesn't mean the mortar is towed. More likely it's to provide the squad with some extra munition and mobility. After all, the mortar's big and heavy on its own, but the mortar shells themselves appear to start at several kilograms of weight each. A 4 or 5 member mortar squad won't exactly be lugging a lot of munitions around by themselves as a result.

Easier if you can stash, say, 5 dozen in the back of a lightly armoured vehicle while the rest of the squad hauls a dozen or so between them. If they have to carry it all themselves they'd be lucky to have as flak vest and pistols for their own protection because taking a rifle with munition would be too heavy with the shells.
Posted by: Garfunkel
« on: October 03, 2018, 04:35:43 PM »

Russian formations -these are valid for the mid-2000s after the big reorganizations that happened in the 1990s. If someone has access to more up-to-date organizations, please share.

Putting in companies later when I find a reliable company level TO&E



Tank Battalion
4 Tank Companies
1 Bumerang

Motor Rifle Battalion
3 Motor Rifle Companies
1 Mortar Battery
1 Bumerang
1 Kurganets-25
1 Pantsir S-1

Artillery Battalion
3 Howitzer Batteries
1 Bumerang
1 SBA-60K2 Bulat
1 Supply vehicle

MLRS Battalion
3 MLRS Batteries
1 Bumerang
1 SBA-60K2 Bulat
1 Supply vehicle

AA Battalion
3 SAM Batteries
1 Bumerang
1 Supply vehicle



Tank Brigade
3 Tank Battalions
1 Motor Rifle Battalion
1 Artillery Battalion
1 MLRS Battalion
1 AA Battalion
1 Recon Company
1 Engineer Company

Motor Rifle Brigade
1 Tank Battalion
3 Motor Rifle Battalions
2 Recon Companies
1 Artillery Battalion
1 MLRS Battalion
1 AA Battalion
1 Engineer Company
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: October 03, 2018, 04:16:48 PM »

Well, you better tell that to the US Army then, because the official TO&E for a Recon Company assigns a Humvee to the mortar squad.  ;D

But seriously, yes a 60mm mortar is man-portable, just like an 81mm mortar is, and a .50 cal / 12.7mm machine gun is or a SPIKE ATGM or an Igla or many other weapon systems. Man-portable in this context means that you can deploy and transport the weapon short distances by muscle power. It doesn't mean that the weapon is so light that it requires no other transportation methods. Outside of special circumstances, all modern militaries use vehicles for transportation as much as possible. It makes operational mobility far better and saves stamina for actual combat situations.

I agree... I also think that the new combat model completely abstract things such as trucks or other non armoured means of transportation. I don't think a Static Heavy artillery is bolted to the ground and immovable.

The size and cost of units also include basic transportation... which also goes for tanks and other armoured vehicles. You don't drive tanks to theatres of operations and planets tend to be pretty big places.  ;)
Posted by: Garfunkel
« on: October 03, 2018, 03:54:39 PM »

Well, you better tell that to the US Army then, because the official TO&E for a Recon Company assigns a Humvee to the mortar squad.  ;D

But seriously, yes a 60mm mortar is man-portable, just like an 81mm mortar is, and a .50 cal / 12.7mm machine gun is or a SPIKE ATGM or an Igla or many other weapon systems. Man-portable in this context means that you can deploy and transport the weapon short distances by muscle power. It doesn't mean that the weapon is so light that it requires no other transportation methods. Outside of special circumstances, all modern militaries use vehicles for transportation as much as possible. It makes operational mobility far better and saves stamina for actual combat situations.