Federation Campaign - Updated Ship Designs

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

With the various changes to the rules since I started my current campaign, I thought it would be worth re-posting the ship designs affected by the changes before I started posting the after action reports.

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Ark Royal class Carrier    10000 tons     2379 Crew     1937 BP      Signature 200-720
3600 km/s     Armour 1     Shields 16-300     Sensors 1/0/0/0     Damage Control 0-0
Hangar Bay Capacity 300    Magazine 1000    Replacement Parts 15    

De Havilland DE7 Ion Engine (12)    Power 60    Engine Efficiency 0.70    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 150,000 Litres    Range 92.6 billion km   (297 days at full power)
Gamma R300/14 Shields (8)   Total Fuel Cost  112 Litres per day

AS-1 Fast Anti-ship Missile (108)  Speed: 18,000 km/s   Endurance: 33 secs    Range: 594k km   Warhead: 3    Size: 4
AF-1 Anti-Fighter Missile (36)  Speed: 30,000 km/s   Endurance: 20 secs    Range: 600k km   Warhead: 1    Size: 4
AS-5 Ultra-Heavy Anti-Ship Missile (35)  Speed: 12,000 km/s   Endurance: 50 secs    Range: 600k km   Warhead: 8    Size: 8
PD-1 Point Defence Missile (72)  Speed: 24,000 km/s   Endurance: 25 secs    Range: 600k km   Warhead: 1    Size: 2

Strike Group
24x Merlin Fighter-Bomber   Speed: 7000 km/s    Range: 28m km      Launch Rails: 4     Size: 5
12x Lancelot Heavy Bomber   Speed: 7000 km/s    Range: 35m km      Launch Rails: 8     Size: 10
12x Galahad Interceptor   Speed: 10000 km/s    Range: 15m km      Launch Rails: 4     Size: 5

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Victory class Missile Cruiser    10000 tons     1163 Crew     1878 BP      Signature 200-720
3600 km/s     Armour 1     Shields 22-300     Sensors 15/0/0/0     Damage Control 0-0
Magazine 2200    Replacement Parts 10    

De Havilland DE7 Ion Engine (12)    Power 60    Engine Efficiency 0.70    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres    Range 123.4 billion km   (396 days at full power)
Gamma R300/14 Shields (11)   Total Fuel Cost  154 Litres per day

S4 Missile Launcher (12)    Missile Size 4    Rate of Fire 30
Missile Fire Control S03-120 (1)    Range: 1200k km
Missile Fire Control S02-080 (1)    Range: 800k km
AS-1 Fast Anti-ship Missile (382)  Speed: 18,000 km/s   Endurance: 33 secs    Range: 594k km   Warhead: 3    Size: 4
AS-2 Long Range Anti-Ship Missile (96)  Speed: 12,000 km/s   Endurance: 75 secs    Range: 900k km   Warhead: 3    Size: 4
AF-1 Anti-Fighter Missile (36)  Speed: 30,000 km/s   Endurance: 20 secs    Range: 600k km   Warhead: 1    Size: 4
PD-2 Large Point Defence Missile (36)  Speed: 24,000 km/s   Endurance: 12 secs    Range: 288k km   Warhead: 1    Size: 4

High Resolution Thermal Sensor HRT5-15 (1)     Strength 15     Detect Signature 10: 1.5m km     Detect Signature 100: 15m km

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Illustrious class Escort Cruiser    10000 tons     1018 Crew     1509 BP      Signature 200-720
3600 km/s    JR 3-50     Armour 1     Shields 22-300     Sensors 15/0/0/0     Damage Control 0-0
Replacement Parts 15    

Rolls-Royce RJ1000 Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 10000 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 3
De Havilland DE7 Ion Engine (12)    Power 60    Engine Efficiency 0.70    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 300,000 Litres    Range 185.1 billion km   (595 days at full power)
Gamma R300/14 Shields (11)   Total Fuel Cost  154 Litres per day

Quad Point Defence Laser Turret (2x4)    Range 90,000km     TS: 13200 km/s     Power 12-12     RM 3    ROF 5     3 3 3 2 1 1 1 1 1 0
Avro Point Defence Fire Control (1)    Max Range: 48,000 km   TS: 12800 km/s     75 50 25 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor  (2)     Total Power Output 18    Armour 0    Exp 5%

High Resolution Thermal Sensor HRT5-15 (1)     Strength 15     Detect Signature 10: 1.5m km     Detect Signature 100: 15m km

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Tribal class Destroyer    4000 tons     391 Crew     598 BP      Signature 80-300
3750 km/s     Armour 1     Shields 14-300     Sensors 6/0/0/0     Damage Control 0-0
Replacement Parts 5    

De Havilland DE7 Ion Engine (5)    Power 60    Engine Efficiency 0.70    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres    Range 154.3 billion km   (476 days at full power)
Gamma R300/14 Shields (7)   Total Fuel Cost  98 Litres per day

Triple 12cm Dual Purpose Laser  (1x3)    Range 120,000km     TS: 10600 km/s     Power 12-9     RM 3    ROF 10     4 4 4 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
Avro R48-9600 Fire Control (1)    Max Range: 96,000 km   TS: 9600 km/s     90 80 70 60 50 40 30 20 10 0
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor  (2)     Total Power Output 18    Armour 0    Exp 5%

High Resolution Thermal Sensor HRT2-6 (1)     Strength 6     Detect Signature 10: 0.6m km     Detect Signature 100: 6m km

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Trafalgar class Destroyer Escort    4500 tons     493 Crew     821 BP      Signature 90-360
4000 km/s     Armour 1     Shields 12-300     Sensors 1/0/0/0     Damage Control 0-0
Magazine 800    Replacement Parts 10    

De Havilland DE7 Ion Engine (6)    Power 60    Engine Efficiency 0.70    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres    Range 137.1 billion km   (396 days at full power)
Gamma R300/14 Shields (6)   Total Fuel Cost  84 Litres per day

S2 Point Defence Missile Launcher (8)    Missile Size 2    Rate of Fire 15
Missile Fire Control S02-080 (1)    Range: 800k km
PD-1 Point Defence Missile (400)  Speed: 24,000 km/s   Endurance: 25 secs    Range: 600k km   Warhead: 1    Size: 2

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River class Patrol Ship    3750 tons     407 Crew     671 BP      Signature 75-300
4000 km/s     Armour 1     Shields 8-300     Sensors 15/0/0/0     Damage Control 0-0
Magazine 400    Replacement Parts 10    

De Havilland DE7 Ion Engine (5)    Power 60    Engine Efficiency 0.70    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 50,000 Litres    Range 82.3 billion km   (238 days at full power)
Gamma R300/14 Shields (4)   Total Fuel Cost  56 Litres per day

S4 Missile Launcher (3)    Missile Size 4    Rate of Fire 30
Missile Fire Control S02-080 (1)    Range: 800k km
AS-1 Fast Anti-ship Missile (64)  Speed: 18,000 km/s   Endurance: 33 secs    Range: 594k km   Warhead: 3    Size: 4
AF-1 Anti-Fighter Missile (18)  Speed: 30,000 km/s   Endurance: 20 secs    Range: 600k km   Warhead: 1    Size: 4
PD-2 Large Point Defence Missile (18)  Speed: 24,000 km/s   Endurance: 12 secs    Range: 288k km   Warhead: 1    Size: 4

High Resolution Thermal Sensor HRT5-15 (1)     Strength 15     Detect Signature 10: 1.5m km     Detect Signature 100: 15m km

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Guardian class Base    6700 tons     630 Crew     901 BP      Signature 134-0
0 km/s     Armour 2     Shields 20-300     Sensors 1/0/0/0     Damage Control 0-0

Quad Point Defence Laser Turret (4x4)    Range 90,000km     TS: 13200 km/s     Power 12-12     RM 3    ROF 5     3 3 3 2 1 1 1 1 1 0
Avro Point Defence Fire Control (2)    Max Range: 48,000 km   TS: 12800 km/s     75 50 25 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor  (6)     Total Power Output 54    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Steve

[Father Tim]

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Guardian class Base    6700 tons     630 Crew     901 BP      Signature 134-0
0 km/s     Armour 2     Shields 20-300     Sensors 1/0/0/0     Damage Control 0-0

Quad Point Defence Laser Turret (4x4)    Range 90,000km     TS: 13200 km/s     Power 12-12     RM 3    ROF 5     3 3 3 2 1 1 1 1 1 0
Avro Point Defence Fire Control (2)    Max Range: 48,000 km   TS: 12800 km/s     75 50 25 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor  (6)     Total Power Output 54    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Steve

Again with the PD lasers that completely out-range their fire control.  Am I the only person that uses PD in other than point-blank mode?  You absolutely need double - quadruple would be better - the existing range on your base's fire control.  Especially because it doesn't move.  Armed with just one of the very same lasers your base is using, a patrol frigate with decent fire control could shred the base's shields from 50k, move in just enough to do 3 pts per laser, and pound your base flat before its lasers - at their measly 20-25% chance to hit - went through the frigate's shields.

[Brian Neumann]

From looking at the current tech the fire control is a x1 range and x4 speed variant.  This is actually fairly good fire control for what is available.  My preference is for a fire control like this and then a fire control with x4 range x1 speed as well.  Backing both up would be a 1 space x1/4 range x4 speed as a last ditch fire control in case of battle damage.

On a base like the Guardian I would have had all three fire control.  I might have downgraded the second one to a x2 range x1 speed to save space and money as none of the weapons are going to fire beyond that range.

Brian

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

Again with the PD lasers that completely out-range their fire control.  Am I the only person that uses PD in other than point-blank mode?  You absolutely need double - quadruple would be better - the existing range on your base's fire control.  Especially because it doesn't move.  Armed with just one of the very same lasers your base is using, a patrol frigate with decent fire control could shred the base's shields from 50k, move in just enough to do 3 pts per laser, and pound your base flat before its lasers - at their measly 20-25% chance to hit - went through the frigate's shields.

Area mode is more useful for screen ships or against slow moving missiles. This base is designed for point blank defence of Earth. A fire control that also allowed longer range would be larger and more expensive and if anything moved close to the base, the 100 missile silos on the planet would take care of it rather than the 10cm lasers on the base.

Steve

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

From looking at the current tech the fire control is a x1 range and x4 speed variant.  This is actually fairly good fire control for what is available.  My preference is for a fire control like this and then a fire control with x4 range x1 speed as well.  Backing both up would be a 1 space x1/4 range x4 speed as a last ditch fire control in case of battle damage.

On a base like the Guardian I would have had all three fire control.  I might have downgraded the second one to a x2 range x1 speed to save space and money as none of the weapons are going to fire beyond that range.

I like the idea of the 1 space 1/4 range, 4x speed for backup. The small size will also make it less likely to get hit.

Steve

[Kurt]

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Guardian class Base    6700 tons     630 Crew     901 BP      Signature 134-0
0 km/s     Armour 2     Shields 20-300     Sensors 1/0/0/0     Damage Control 0-0

Quad Point Defence Laser Turret (4x4)    Range 90,000km     TS: 13200 km/s     Power 12-12     RM 3    ROF 5     3 3 3 2 1 1 1 1 1 0
Avro Point Defence Fire Control (2)    Max Range: 48,000 km   TS: 12800 km/s     75 50 25 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor  (6)     Total Power Output 54    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Steve

Steve -

I have a question about the fire control/laser ranges.  I noticed in my own campaign that it seems that lasers out-range equivalent fire controls by a significant margin.  I'm not sure if this is an oversight or as intended, but it is somewhat frustrating to develop and design a main battery for my warships and then realize that I can't utilize it any where near its capability.  

For example, I have a 20cm Ultraviolet laser that has a maximum range of 400,000 km's.  The 20cm and the ultraviolet are both the fourth research level in their respective trees.  Unfortunately, the best beam fire control I can build is also the fourth step in the beam fire control tree, or 32,000 km.  Now, as I understand it, this 32,000 is actually the 50% range, so its real max range would be 64,000.  I can also build a 4x range for 4x cost/size installation, however, that only gives me 256,000 km's range, or 64% of my main battery's range.   To reach my main battery's range I would need a 7x installation, or to develop a 50,000 km fire control range, but I'm not sure how many steps in the tree this is, and would be very expensive.  

Like I said, this appears to be an imbalance between laser ranges and fire control capabilities at similar tech levels, but you may have done this for a reason that I don't know about.  The obvious solutions are:
1.  Reduce laser ranges, but this has balance problems with other weapons;
2.  Increase beam fire control ranges to match similar tech beam ranges;
3.  Increase the options on the fire control installations, i.e., 5x, 6x, 7x.

My first inclination was for #2, because a 4x installation already eats up a lot of space, but after thinking about it #3 might be more reasonable.  After all, we are talking about hitting small moving targets very far away, so at longer ranges it might be reasonable to think that a very large fire control installation would be necessary.  

Kurt

[Brian Neumann]

Part of the reason that the fire control is so much shorter ranged than the lasers was for play balance.  After the last major change in missle design there was a problem that most reasonable size missles with a reasonable warhead for the tech level were actually shorter ranged and did less damage than the lasers were doing.  On top of that the lasers were not interceptable and they were firing faster as well.  His answer was to shorten the fire control ranges.  This has the side effect that the bigger lasers will tend to do significant damage at any range that they can be used at.  

Brian

[Kurt]

Part of the reason that the fire control is so much shorter ranged than the lasers was for play balance.  After the last major change in missle design there was a problem that most reasonable size missles with a reasonable warhead for the tech level were actually shorter ranged and did less damage than the lasers were doing.  On top of that the lasers were not interceptable and they were firing faster as well.  His answer was to shorten the fire control ranges.  This has the side effect that the bigger lasers will tend to do significant damage at any range that they can be used at.  

Brian

If that is the case I would be more comfortable with shortening the range of the lasers to match the FC ranges, and altering the damage chart to eliminate the effect of doing significant damage throughout the effective range.  This seems more reasonable to me, but there may be additional complications that I'm not aware of.  

Kurt

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

I have a question about the fire control/laser ranges.  I noticed in my own campaign that it seems that lasers out-range equivalent fire controls by a significant margin.  I'm not sure if this is an oversight or as intended, but it is somewhat frustrating to develop and design a main battery for my warships and then realize that I can't utilize it any where near its capability.  

For example, I have a 20cm Ultraviolet laser that has a maximum range of 400,000 km's.  The 20cm and the ultraviolet are both the fourth research level in their respective trees.  Unfortunately, the best beam fire control I can build is also the fourth step in the beam fire control tree, or 32,000 km.  Now, as I understand it, this 32,000 is actually the 50% range, so its real max range would be 64,000.  I can also build a 4x range for 4x cost/size installation, however, that only gives me 256,000 km's range, or 64% of my main battery's range.   To reach my main battery's range I would need a 7x installation, or to develop a 50,000 km fire control range, but I'm not sure how many steps in the tree this is, and would be very expensive.  

Like I said, this appears to be an imbalance between laser ranges and fire control capabilities at similar tech levels, but you may have done this for a reason that I don't know about.  The obvious solutions are:
1.  Reduce laser ranges, but this has balance problems with other weapons;
2.  Increase beam fire control ranges to match similar tech beam ranges;
3.  Increase the options on the fire control installations, i.e., 5x, 6x, 7x.

My first inclination was for #2, because a 4x installation already eats up a lot of space, but after thinking about it #3 might be more reasonable.  After all, we are talking about hitting small moving targets very far away, so at longer ranges it might be reasonable to think that a very large fire control installation would be necessary.  

Its true than maximum theoretical laser range is greater than fire control range, However, the fire control ranges were changed for several reasons that are explained in the following message

http://pentarch.org/aurora/viewtopic.php?t=469

I could reduce laser ranges so they did less damage at a range equal to the equivalent level fire control but then I would have to change all the other beams weapons to rebalance them against laser damage. It would also change lasers from their intended role, which is to cause a lot of damage across a shorter range than missiles. The best way to rationalise it is that a laser has a theoretical long range but the problem is that hitting something with the laser is only possible within a fraction of that range. Larger lasers increase damage per weapon HS but their maximum range is still restricted by the ship's ability to target its enemies. Consider the Honorverse where lasers and grasers are short range but do a lot of damage within that range. The main problem for the game mechanics is keeping the laser range within 5 seconds of travel time at the speed of light. If I add a 5x, 6x, etc fire control, it takes the range of a laser beyond the 5 second travel time for the higher level fire controls.

Perhaps I could do something about it by changing the way the range is displayed on the ship design display, maybe by showing the laser range as the max distance it can fire with the fire control on the ship.

Steve

[Kurt]

I have a question about the fire control/laser ranges.  I noticed in my own campaign that it seems that lasers out-range equivalent fire controls by a significant margin.  I'm not sure if this is an oversight or as intended, but it is somewhat frustrating to develop and design a main battery for my warships and then realize that I can't utilize it any where near its capability.  

For example, I have a 20cm Ultraviolet laser that has a maximum range of 400,000 km's.  The 20cm and the ultraviolet are both the fourth research level in their respective trees.  Unfortunately, the best beam fire control I can build is also the fourth step in the beam fire control tree, or 32,000 km.  Now, as I understand it, this 32,000 is actually the 50% range, so its real max range would be 64,000.  I can also build a 4x range for 4x cost/size installation, however, that only gives me 256,000 km's range, or 64% of my main battery's range.   To reach my main battery's range I would need a 7x installation, or to develop a 50,000 km fire control range, but I'm not sure how many steps in the tree this is, and would be very expensive.  

Like I said, this appears to be an imbalance between laser ranges and fire control capabilities at similar tech levels, but you may have done this for a reason that I don't know about.  The obvious solutions are:
1.  Reduce laser ranges, but this has balance problems with other weapons;
2.  Increase beam fire control ranges to match similar tech beam ranges;
3.  Increase the options on the fire control installations, i.e., 5x, 6x, 7x.

My first inclination was for #2, because a 4x installation already eats up a lot of space, but after thinking about it #3 might be more reasonable.  After all, we are talking about hitting small moving targets very far away, so at longer ranges it might be reasonable to think that a very large fire control installation would be necessary.  

Its true than maximum theoretical laser range is greater than fire control range, However, the fire control ranges were changed for several reasons that are explained in the following message

http://pentarch.org/aurora/viewtopic.php?t=469

I could reduce laser ranges so they did less damage at a range equal to the equivalent level fire control but then I would have to change all the other beams weapons to rebalance them against laser damage. It would also change lasers from their intended role, which is to cause a lot of damage across a shorter range than missiles. The best way to rationalise it is that a laser has a theoretical long range but the problem is that hitting something with the laser is only possible within a fraction of that range. Larger lasers increase damage per weapon HS but their maximum range is still restricted by the ship's ability to target its enemies. Consider the Honorverse where lasers and grasers are short range but do a lot of damage within that range. The main problem for the game mechanics is keeping the laser range within 5 seconds of travel time at the speed of light. If I add a 5x, 6x, etc fire control, it takes the range of a laser beyond the 5 second travel time for the higher level fire controls.

Perhaps I could do something about it by changing the way the range is displayed on the ship design display, maybe by showing the laser range as the max distance it can fire with the fire control on the ship.

Steve

That might be better.  I'm not really arguing for extended beam ranges, I'm just concerned about confusion with the game.  When I was designing the ship I mentioned above, at first I thought I did something wrong.  When I realized that I really had designed the best FC I could, and that no matter what I did I couldn't fully utilize my weapon's full range then I was frustrated.  

I understand the reasoning behind the decisions made so far, I just am concerned about inexperienced player reactions, which will probably be like mine - confusion followed by frustration.  

Kurt

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

Perhaps I could do something about it by changing the way the range is displayed on the ship design display, maybe by showing the laser range as the max distance it can fire with the fire control on the ship.

That might be better.  I'm not really arguing for extended beam ranges, I'm just concerned about confusion with the game.  When I was designing the ship I mentioned above, at first I thought I did something wrong.  When I realized that I really had designed the best FC I could, and that no matter what I did I couldn't fully utilize my weapon's full range then I was frustrated.  

I understand the reasoning behind the decisions made so far, I just am concerned about inexperienced player reactions, which will probably be like mine - confusion followed by frustration.  

You are probably right. I will sort something out along these lines.

Steve

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

I have changed the design displays so that beam weapons show the maximum range they can fire at, given the best available fire control. All damage values beyond that max range are now shown as zero.

Steve

[alanwebber]

Steve

I notice you created bases without fuel storage but won't they need it to maintain shields?

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

Steve

I notice you created bases without fuel storage but won't they need it to maintain shields?

Yes. I noticed that when I turned their shields on

Steve