Author Topic: Setup suggestions and ideas.  (Read 3788 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Cripes Amighty

  • Martian Union
  • Sub-Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 141
    • View Profile
Re: Setup suggestions and ideas.
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2014, 07:46:39 PM »
The more I think about Alex Brunius' game setup, the more I like it. Focusing on the characters and the RP behind it makes everything a lot easier to manage while creating a more interesting AAR. Most of the multiplayer games are too hush hush and no stories seem to evolve from them. 

While I don't completely agree with all of Zincat's points, I do think that four nations might be too much for a game like this, but that two is too small. Perhaps three nations would be better? This gets rid of the "rival in everything" problem you would have with only two nations, but cuts down on the ability to form alliances. It seems unlikely that an alliance would form between two powers to eliminate the third.

Example: A and B agree to take out C. However, everyone realizes that doing so would leave only A and B standing once C is gone. So can A really trust B and can B really trust A? They're going to be positioning themselves to get the better loot and better overall position throughout the war, as any reasonable nation would do. Can B actually trust A to uphold their end of the deal, or will A just let B try to take out C and thus weaken both B and C so that A is the strongest? And what about C? Does anyone really love C?!?!

I think you get my point.

Four nations seem to open up the possibility of creating alliances which might just result in a 1 v 1 anyway. I know this possibility is limited anyway though, since the SM will be controlling it all.

Any thoughts on tech trading?

Should it be totally free and open or would that risk to see for example two empires have 100% cooperation and quickly outpace the others that don't cooperate?

Should there be limits in time or any costs involved in directly transferring technology? Any ideas?

I don't see why there should be any limitations on tech trading. I just don't think any government would willingly give away information concerning high-tech military hardware, even if they were getting something in return. For that to happen, they would have to be getting a much better deal, to the point that it would hurt the other nation more then it would benefit them, at which point no trade would occur. That's my opinion at least.

Technology dissemination, on the other hand, makes sense. That and espionage.
 

Offline alex_brunius

  • Moderator
  • Rear Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 854
  • Thanked: 22 times
    • View Profile
Re: Setup suggestions and ideas.
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2014, 02:11:29 AM »
I think you can make any amount of nations work. 4 is mostly because I think it would be to much workload with more then that.

I don't see why there should be any limitations on tech trading. I just don't think any government would willingly give away information concerning high-tech military hardware, even if they were getting something in return. For that to happen, they would have to be getting a much better deal, to the point that it would hurt the other nation more then it would benefit them, at which point no trade would occur. That's my opinion at least.

Technology dissemination, on the other hand, makes sense. That and espionage.

Yes. Hopefully open trading will see it much more common to actually sell products (components, engines, missiles, fighters and the likes). This means the nation don't directly "give" away base technology but rather finished stuff and can charge per unit sold. Should also lead to interesting priorities on construction and for those that make production calls, and interesting diplomacy (we paid for 15 ion engines 2 years ago already and need them now, where are they?! They will be obsolete before we see any of them! )

Trading away a licence to build (limited or unlimited) amounts is also an option, or partnering with civilian corporations that do the building for example in return for getting a part of the profits or getting to use the technology them self in future products.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 02:29:15 AM by alex_brunius »
 

Offline 3_14159

  • Registered
  • Warrant Officer, Class 1
  • *****
  • Posts: 84
    • View Profile
Re: Setup suggestions and ideas.
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2014, 04:52:14 AM »
On nation number:
  • One nation: More or less standard Aurora game, with not much more interaction
  • Two nations: Will probably end like Steve's NATO/Warsaw pact game: Outward expansion until someone gets lucky or enough people are off earth, then sieging of other systems.
  • Three nations: Depending on the eventual strengths, this has the interesting result of allowing a weaker nation to form the lynchpin. As long as no nation is stronger than the other two together, there is always incentive against allying with an equal partner - that of betrayal once the enemy is defeated.
  • Four nations: Similar to above, except that a complete alliance of two players might be able to steamroll one of the others. Only then, it becomes the same problem as for three nations; that is two strong and a weaker nation.
  • Five or more nations: Very interestig due to more political dimension, but probably too much work for the SM.
I myself would prefer three or four nations, as I believe that would balance the risk of war with the risk of not-war. Implementing an espionage system would help making backstabbing less attractive.

On tech trading:
I believe that wholesome tech trading (p.ex. Ultraviolet lasers for Ceramic composite armour) should be allowed, but have some in-game drawbacks entailed. For example, you still need to research a certain percentage of the tech (representing integrating it into your tech base), or the tech transfer being easier to intercept via espionage.
Also, I like your idea of component trading and licensing.

On tech osmosis:
Another idea would be an automatic transfer of technological knowledge if in use or traded.
Sublight has had the rule that prerequisites of a traded technology would be revealed to everyone. Another possibility would be that, once you research something, everyone gets the tech two steps behind - for example 10cm lasers if you're using 15cms.
I myself would prefer the trade variant at most, though I dislike tech osmosis for the fact that it has the risk of making empires too similar.

On orders:
My idea would be for everyone to give standing orders that should be followed, and plans which are one-time changes to that. For example, you could have all exploratory ships follow a certain plan, all warships another, and so on. Production plans would be made a few months before the construction actually starts, and for a year or so. This would tie in with the below espionage system, would award planning and give you a clear set of things we want ships to do.

On espionage:
Now, it gets interesting. Assuming that you want a system completely outside of aurora, I propose using several areas of espionage: Military deployments, military plans, ship capabilities, research projects and industrial projects plus counter-espionage. Each of these areas can have several espionage targets. For example, ship capabilities could be a short description, or complete blue-prints.
Each of the above areas would fill up with a random number of points per turn/year/five-day increment. Whenever there are enough for one of the espionage targets, you slowly get corresponding information. These points represent the penetration in that area. The more points you have in one, the higher the chance of being detected, but the more valuable the information.
For example (and those are all numbers I've just made up on the spot): Assume that we are talking about ship capabilities, with 100 points representing a description, 250 representing solid numbers and 1000 blueprints. For 2500, you could build the ship in your own facilities.
Each five-day-increment, you gain between -2 and 7 points. So, on average, you require 100 days to slowly gain descriptions, 250 for solid numbers and 1000 for blueprints. If you have, for example 100 points, you have a chance of 5% per increment to gain a description of a random ship - so, if the enemy has twenty ship types, you'll need about five and a half year to get information on all.
On second thought, the above might be much, much too complicated.
 

Offline Cripes Amighty

  • Martian Union
  • Sub-Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 141
    • View Profile
Re: Setup suggestions and ideas.
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2014, 01:24:45 PM »
On espionage:
Now, it gets interesting. Assuming that you want a system completely outside of aurora, I propose using several areas of espionage: Military deployments, military plans, ship capabilities, research projects and industrial projects plus counter-espionage. Each of these areas can have several espionage targets. For example, ship capabilities could be a short description, or complete blue-prints.
Each of the above areas would fill up with a random number of points per turn/year/five-day increment. Whenever there are enough for one of the espionage targets, you slowly get corresponding information. These points represent the penetration in that area. The more points you have in one, the higher the chance of being detected, but the more valuable the information.
For example (and those are all numbers I've just made up on the spot): Assume that we are talking about ship capabilities, with 100 points representing a description, 250 representing solid numbers and 1000 blueprints. For 2500, you could build the ship in your own facilities.
Each five-day-increment, you gain between -2 and 7 points. So, on average, you require 100 days to slowly gain descriptions, 250 for solid numbers and 1000 for blueprints. If you have, for example 100 points, you have a chance of 5% per increment to gain a description of a random ship - so, if the enemy has twenty ship types, you'll need about five and a half year to get information on all.
On second thought, the above might be much, much too complicated.

I like the idea of something like this. I also think, that since this will be based heavily on characters, that a person's espionage and intelligence score should have some factor on operations. That way whenever their score is improved, it increases your ability to successfully carry out espionage. Maybe intelligence affects counter-espionage work? Or maybe it's just added into the espionage score.
 

Offline Erik Luken

  • Administrator
  • Admiral of the Fleet
  • *****
  • Posts: 5010
  • Thanked: 81 times
    • View Profile
    • Arkayn Game Design
Re: Setup suggestions and ideas.
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2014, 01:40:42 PM »
Regarding espionage:

One could hack together a system from SFB or another game that supports such things. I've got it in Astra Imperia. I drew the inspiration for that from SFB. I don't recall if Starfire had anything like that. Or if any other games do.
 

Offline Sematary

  • Martian Union
  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 712
  • Thanked: 6 times
    • View Profile
Re: Setup suggestions and ideas.
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2014, 02:46:08 PM »
Regarding espionage:

One could hack together a system from SFB or another game that supports such things. I've got it in Astra Imperia. I drew the inspiration for that from SFB. I don't recall if Starfire had anything like that. Or if any other games do.

I would be in favor of Astra Imperia's intelligence system being modified for a game like this.
 

Offline Erik Luken

  • Administrator
  • Admiral of the Fleet
  • *****
  • Posts: 5010
  • Thanked: 81 times
    • View Profile
    • Arkayn Game Design
Re: Setup suggestions and ideas.
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2014, 02:47:03 PM »
I would be in favor of Astra Imperia's intelligence system being modified for a game like this.

I like him ;)
 

Offline alex_brunius

  • Moderator
  • Rear Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 854
  • Thanked: 22 times
    • View Profile
Re: Setup suggestions and ideas.
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2014, 03:03:18 PM »
Sounds like I have some reading up to do, can anyone help me out and point me in the right direction as to where I can find the espionage rules for Astra Imperia or "SFB"?

Edit: Looks like I found Astra Imperia v15 download.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 03:09:36 PM by alex_brunius »
 

Offline Erik Luken

  • Administrator
  • Admiral of the Fleet
  • *****
  • Posts: 5010
  • Thanked: 81 times
    • View Profile
    • Arkayn Game Design
Re: Setup suggestions and ideas.
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2014, 03:11:53 PM »
Sounds like I have some reading up to do, can anyone help me out and point me in the right direction as to where I can find the espionage rules for Astra Imperia or "SFB"?

Edit: Looks like I found Astra Imperia v15 download.

Meh. Check your mail.

SFB = Star Fleet Battles. If I recall, Section J is the intel rules.
 

Offline alex_brunius

  • Moderator
  • Rear Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 854
  • Thanked: 22 times
    • View Profile
Re: Setup suggestions and ideas.
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2014, 04:12:25 PM »
Meh. Check your mail.

SFB = Star Fleet Battles. If I recall, Section J is the intel rules.

Thanks! I appreciate the effort and must say Astra Imperia looks really cool :)

After a brief look I can at least say the following: The espionage should use similar logic/common sense rules.

Ships built in orbit of Earth will be possible to for most to easily tell rough tonnage, amount of engines and amount of guns when they launch. (Not fighters though, unless they launch, since they can be transported to hangars without being revealed).
Depending on rules of engagement some speed and active sensors may also be detected upon ships leaving drydocks unless they are towed away. Crew Training inside Sol system will also allow some speed information to be picked up by those that have sensors to do so... I am thinking about if I should require live firing of real missiles/weapons (that will be automatically detected) in order to allow crew training to complete past a certain percentage, what do you think?

In general I will try to use the information provided by Aurora and reduce the amount of rolls needed to a minimum though to keep things a bit more possible to handle.
 

Offline Sematary

  • Martian Union
  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 712
  • Thanked: 6 times
    • View Profile
Re: Setup suggestions and ideas.
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2014, 04:18:21 PM »
Thanks! I appreciate the effort and must say Astra Imperia looks really cool :)

After a brief look I can at least say the following: The espionage should use similar logic/common sense rules.

Ships built in orbit of Earth will be possible to for most to easily tell rough tonnage, amount of engines and amount of guns when they launch. (Not fighters though, unless they launch, since they can be transported to hangars without being revealed).
Depending on rules of engagement some speed and active sensors may also be detected upon ships leaving drydocks unless they are towed away. Crew Training inside Sol system will also allow some speed information to be picked up by those that have sensors to do so... I am thinking about if I should require live firing of real missiles/weapons (that will be automatically detected) in order to allow crew training to complete past a certain percentage, what do you think?

In general I will try to use the information provided by Aurora and reduce the amount of rolls needed to a minimum though to keep things a bit more possible to handle.

I have always though that ship training should constitute at least some live firing although I do get that most firing would only have to be simulated.
 

Offline Erik Luken

  • Administrator
  • Admiral of the Fleet
  • *****
  • Posts: 5010
  • Thanked: 81 times
    • View Profile
    • Arkayn Game Design
Re: Setup suggestions and ideas.
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2014, 04:47:51 PM »
Thanks! I appreciate the effort and must say Astra Imperia looks really cool :)

After a brief look I can at least say the following: The espionage should use similar logic/common sense rules.

Ships built in orbit of Earth will be possible to for most to easily tell rough tonnage, amount of engines and amount of guns when they launch. (Not fighters though, unless they launch, since they can be transported to hangars without being revealed).
Depending on rules of engagement some speed and active sensors may also be detected upon ships leaving drydocks unless they are towed away. Crew Training inside Sol system will also allow some speed information to be picked up by those that have sensors to do so... I am thinking about if I should require live firing of real missiles/weapons (that will be automatically detected) in order to allow crew training to complete past a certain percentage, what do you think?

In general I will try to use the information provided by Aurora and reduce the amount of rolls needed to a minimum though to keep things a bit more possible to handle.

Astra Imperia was not really written with a multi-faction start in the same system scenario envisioned.

Even with 1st Gen long range scanners, a week's worth of observation will get you to level 3, and almost halfway to level 4. There probably should be some sort of rule that "if you see it, you gain the knowledge." So if you saw ship X under drive, you'd be able to tell the drive type. Though for types higher than your own it should be "Unknown advanced".

As for strategic intel, with a multi-faction start you'd have at least levels 1, 3, & 5. Probably 2 and 4 as well, though that intel will be outdated quickly. And I guess you'd have level 11 at start too. :)
 

Offline Alfapiomega

  • Lt. Commander
  • ********
  • Posts: 231
  • Thanked: 2 times
    • View Profile
    • My Youtube channel
Re: Setup suggestions and ideas.
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2014, 02:18:38 AM »
Exactly as Semetary said I don't think there is an ideal number of nation (well, 135 is quite close to ideal but meh).

Whether we have 2, 3, 4 or 10 there will be alliances and hate in game. As we are people though I believe we can set some ground rules so that the game does not imediately spiral into a blodshet where all gang up on one. 

So I would use only the amount of potential players and the capability of SM as a guideline.
"Everything is possible until you make a choice. "
 

Offline alex_brunius

  • Moderator
  • Rear Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 854
  • Thanked: 22 times
    • View Profile
Re: Setup suggestions and ideas.
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2014, 03:51:39 AM »
Another question I would like feedback on:

Should every player characters be linked to an Aurora character?

It may restrict the story somewhat but the main problem I see with doing this is subjecting everyone to randomness. Both in terms of sudden accidents killing of a character your really like, and in terms of randomness giving better stats/promotion points/so on to non-player characters so that player characters are not used or even may be released of service.

If Aurora had a solid SM feature that allowed editing bonuses (like you can with character personality traits) I would do this in a heartbeat, but now I am not so sure...
 

Offline Alfapiomega

  • Lt. Commander
  • ********
  • Posts: 231
  • Thanked: 2 times
    • View Profile
    • My Youtube channel
Re: Setup suggestions and ideas.
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2014, 04:22:47 AM »
Another question I would like feedback on:

Should every player characters be linked to an Aurora character?

It may restrict the story somewhat but the main problem I see with doing this is subjecting everyone to randomness. Both in terms of sudden accidents killing of a character your really like, and in terms of randomness giving better stats/promotion points/so on to non-player characters so that player characters are not used or even may be released of service.

If Aurora had a solid SM feature that allowed editing bonuses (like you can with character personality traits) I would do this in a heartbeat, but now I am not so sure...

Not sure about this...
"Everything is possible until you make a choice. "
 

 

Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51