Author Topic: Re: Siliconate War  (Read 5017 times)

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Offline RoguePhoenix

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« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2007, 07:18:31 PM »
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
There are also at least thirty copies of the Unified Rules, assuming that each member of the now-defunct third edition design group retained their own copy. I use my own copy as my only 3rdR reference material.

In fact, after writing this I think I am going to dig out my own copy of ISW4 and reread it :-P. Steve your next hehehe.

Lastly I don't know how much luck you'll have getting ahold of Marvin, I tried his e-mail twice back when I was trying to get the latest version of the UTM since mine was two versions out of date.

*sigh* I really need to start finding some time to plop myself down and actually do a game. It really isn't that hard but it always seems like it is.

Oh and my appologies for lurking so much lately but work led to wedding on the way led to kid on the way so ummm well... I could find the time to be more active but someone else might not be to happy at the moment :-)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by RoguePhoenix »
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Offline Þórgrímr

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« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2007, 07:19:29 PM »
@Crucis, yeah the tactical side blew chunks bigtime.  :shock:




Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Þórgrímr »
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Offline crucis

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« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2007, 08:20:20 PM »
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "crucis"
I took a long break from Starfire (from the mid 90's up until this past July).  I was able to use Ebay to buy the 3rdR rulebook, as well as First Contact, SM#1, and Alkelda Dawn.  What I'd really like to get my hands on is SM#2.  SM#2 always seems to get mentioned in any thread where 3rdR is discussed, but because it's only a PDF document, it's just about impossible to get a hold of.  From what little I can gleen from posts in The List's archives and from reading the Ultra rules themselves, it seems that there are some similarities between SM#2 and Ultra's strategic rules, but I'd like to get a copy of SM#2 so I can see this for myself.  Besides, I'm thinking of starting up a new solo campaign, and would like to see what SM#2 has to offer.
Some other 3rdR products worth having are Crusade, which is a book with good scenarios and background and few new rules and tech, Interstellar War #4, which is a huge electronic product containing some new rules and new tech, plus a lot of scenarios and great background, and the Unified Tech Manual (UTM), which is a large electronic product that consolidates all of the 3rdR tech systems and tables and cleans up several other rules. Although the UTM contain all of the Crusade and ISW4 tech systems and the new rules for that tech, I think both the older products are worth it just for the background material alone. There is also the Unified Rules, a huge, unpublished electronic product that includes all the rules/tech from 3rdR, Imperial Starfire, SM#2 and the scenario modules plus a lot of background material in an updated and consolidated rulebook.

Although you might find a copy of Crusade in a store or on ebay, the electronic material is more problematic. The main problem is that 3rdR has been discontinued by Marvin and he seems keen to prevent any copying of existing electronic material. I have had a number of people contact me directly regarding copies of the UTM, etc, and I have always directed them to ask Marvin if they can get copies of the existing, 'out of print' electronic material from a friend. The response is usually that they aren't allowed to do that and would get sued for copyright infringement if they did so. I have no idea what the legal situation is for out of print material that is available electronically (vague I would guess) or if Marvin would carry out any such threat but I have avoided passing out such material.

When the UTM was produced, I simply included a request for people to buy the product and not copy it. However, given human nature and the ease of distribution by email, I expect there are probably a lot of unpurchased copies of ISW4 and the UTM floating around out there. Finding one is going to be the trick. There are also at least thirty copies of the Unified Rules, assuming that each member of the now-defunct third edition design group retained their own copy. I use my own copy as my only 3rdR reference material.

In fact, after writing this I think I am going to dig out my own copy of ISW4 and reread it :)

Steve


A few points.  

* I purchased Stars at War and Crusade before I went on my Starfire hiatus, so I'm set there.

* I have a copy of ISW4, a non-SDS copy in fact.  And how, you might ask, does such a non-SDS created copy of ISW4 even exist?  Simple, I own a copy of the original ISW4 manuscript in a number of Word docs that Dave Weber sent me back when we ... yes WE ... worked on it.  I'm more than a little PO'd that I wasn't properly credited in the SDS release of ISW4 which I've also seen, since the amount of work that I put in on ISW4 was hardly insignificant.  At least, Dave remembered to give me credit in The Shiva Option for my work.


* I've read on some other (don't remember where) board where some old List member (IIRC) sent ML an Email last year asking about the availability of some of the 3e products.  IIRC, ML was willing to sell some but not others.  Don't remember which products fell into which category.



* If I can never get a copy of SM#2, I'll just create my own House Rules, combining the best of ISF and ULTRA.  Frankly, it's what I'm doing this very moment, in preperation of my first solo campaign in many years.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by crucis »
 

Offline coldsteel

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« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2007, 08:43:36 PM »
Quote from: "crucis"
A few points.  

* I purchased Stars at War and Crusade before I went on my Starfire hiatus, so I'm set there.

* I have a copy of ISW4, a non-SDS copy in fact.  And how, you might ask, does such a non-SDS created copy of ISW4 even exist?  Simple, I own a copy of the original ISW4 manuscript in a number of Word docs that Dave Weber sent me back when we ... yes WE ... worked on it.  I'm more than a little PO'd that I wasn't properly credited in the SDS release of ISW4 which I've also seen, since the amount of work that I put in on ISW4 was hardly insignificant.  At least, Dave remembered to give me credit in The Shiva Option for my work.


So what you're trying to say is, you're Fred Burton...?


EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Last Edit: September 10, 2007, 11:57:37 PM by coldsteel »
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Offline crucis

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« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2007, 08:47:50 PM »
Quote from: "coldsteel"
Quote from: "crucis"
A few points.  

* I purchased Stars at War and Crusade before I went on my Starfire hiatus, so I'm set there.

* I have a copy of ISW4, a non-SDS copy in fact.  And how, you might ask, does such a non-SDS created copy of ISW4 even exist?  Simple, I own a copy of the original ISW4 manuscript in a number of Word docs that Dave Weber sent me back when we ... yes WE ... worked on it.  I'm more than a little PO'd that I wasn't properly credited in the SDS release of ISW4 which I've also seen, since the amount of work that I put in on ISW4 was hardly insignificant.  At least, Dave remembered to give me credit in The Shiva Option for my work.

So what you're trying to say is, you're Fred Burton...?


EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Yep, that'd be me.  


EEEEE????  Huh?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by crucis »
 

Offline crucis

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« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2007, 08:56:41 PM »
[quote="
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by crucis »
 

Offline Þórgrímr

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« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2007, 09:10:27 PM »
Crucis, I think that may be a sticking point on why I keep getting turned down by publishers. They see the latin terms and their eyes glaze over and flush the submission down the toilet as unreadable.  :D

Beyond the confusing Latin, how are the two stories themselves? Any comment you would wish to toss my way? I am in desperate search of commentary.  :wink:


Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Þórgrímr »
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Offline crucis

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« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2007, 09:37:48 PM »
To extend my remarks in my "That'd be me post" above...

Yes, I am Fred Burton (hence my handle of Crucis), formerly a loyal minion of Dave Weber when he was producing Starfire products.  I haven't stayed in contact with him for a long time, so don't be looking for any scoops on his latest projects.  I'm as much in the dark as any of you.

However, I was/am the creator of The Star Union, the Zarkolyan Empire, The Pitariad (betcha'd LOVE to know who they are), the Laser Torpedo, the Anti-Shield Warhead, the Box Launcher, co-creator of the Gunboat, and nearly every Star Union and Zarkolyan character in The Shiva Option, as well as the "scenarios" in Crucian space shown by Dave and Steve in TSO, and that Starfire map of a part of Crucian space at the front of TSO.  And the ship designer for the Arachnid, Star Union, and Zarkolyan fleets, as shown in ISW4.


The first scenario/scene between SF19 and Wingmaster Furra's 6th Strike Wing was scripted by me right down to the exact tactics used by the technically inferior Crucian ships defeat the Bug BCs.  I actually gamed out that specific scenario in the tried and true map, counters, and d10's.   The fact that Furra's SDR's managed to take out all but one of the Bug command datalink command ships was COMPLETELY random dumb luck.  I was as astounded as I'm sure any reader was at their incredible good luck.

The Battle of Reymiirnagar (also called Hell's Gate, in Crucian) was also as I scripted it, although not in as much detail.  The massive Asteroid Fortresses were my idea, and had been initially placed at another WP in the system which led to the Telik system, which is where the Crucians actually feared that a Demon attack might come for about 100 years.

The seemingly suicidal corvettes with ECM2 (datalink jamming ECM) was also my idea.  I saw it as a very "crucian" thing to do.  The Crucians aren't the religous fanatics that the Rigelians or the Thebans were, but they are very committed to defeating the Demons.

Along that line, a scripted battle of mine that wasn't included in The Shiva Option was the First Battle of Rabahl, where a reserve formation, the 10th Grand Wing (IIRC) fought a battle to the very last ship to buy time for the Br'stoll'ee to evacuate their very recently emplaced colony.  In my history of the Star Union, 10th Grand Wing was called the "Gray Wing" because its ships and its crews were so old, and every member of 10th GW was posthumously awarded the Star Union's highest honor (whatever that is), since their sacrifice not only allowed the Br'stoll'ee the time to evacuate every single colonist, but it also delayed the Demon advance into that sector of Star Union space for many months, and bought the USN time to prepare itself for some larger battles to come in the area between Menkasahr and and the immense USN Fleet Base at Beylaktuur.  




OTOH, I'm also the person who created the apparantly flawed Arachnid ships that, according to some people on the List, had some Magazines to far forward on their control sheets.  That was both intentional and a mistake.  Intentional in that the Bugs, IIRC, didn't start the war with anti-matter warheads, thus more forward mags wasn't an issue.  And a mistake in that after they encountered AM whds early in the war and developed their own, the Bugs should have moved their magazines deeper into the ships at the first refits.  (In my defense, if this was such an issue, I'd like to know why SDS didn't catch it before publishing ISW4.  Moving a few mags back in some designs would have been a near zero effort amount of work, since it wouldn't have required any recalculations of costs, etc.  But I disgress.)  In the words of a well known Honorverse character, "Oooops".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by crucis »
 

Offline coldsteel

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« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2007, 12:00:21 AM »
Quote from: "crucis"
However, I was/am the creator of The Star Union, the Zarkolyan Empire, The Pitariad (betcha'd LOVE to know who they are), the Laser Torpedo, the Anti-Shield Warhead, the Box Launcher, co-creator of the Gunboat, and nearly every Star Union and Zarkolyan character in The Shiva Option, as well as the "scenarios" in Crucian space shown by Dave and Steve in TSO, and that Starfire map of a part of Crucian space at the front of TSO.  And the ship designer for the Arachnid, Star Union, and Zarkolyan fleets, as shown in ISW4.


Anti-Shield Warhead???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by coldsteel »
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Offline Steve Walmsley

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« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2007, 06:18:19 AM »
Quote from: "crucis"
I purchased Stars at War and Crusade before I went on my Starfire hiatus, so I'm set there.
I completely forgot about Stars at Wars. That was also a great product.

Quote
I have a copy of ISW4, a non-SDS copy in fact.  And how, you might ask, does such a non-SDS created copy of ISW4 even exist?  Simple, I own a copy of the original ISW4 manuscript in a number of Word docs that Dave Weber sent me back when we ... yes WE ... worked on it.  I'm more than a little PO'd that I wasn't properly credited in the SDS release of ISW4 which I've also seen, since the amount of work that I put in on ISW4 was hardly insignificant.  At least, Dave remembered to give me credit in The Shiva Option for my work.
I have had my own complaints along those lines. Marvin isn't particularly good at handing out credit :).  Congratulations on ISW4 though. It is one of the best modules I have seen for ANY game.

Quote
I've read on some other (don't remember where) board where some old List member (IIRC) sent ML an Email last year asking about the availability of some of the 3e products.  IIRC, ML was willing to sell some but not others.  Don't remember which products fell into which category.
That's interesting. If someone does manage to get hold of Marvin, I am sure that information would be useful to a a lot of people on this board.

Quote
If I can never get a copy of SM#2, I'll just create my own House Rules, combining the best of ISF and ULTRA.  Frankly, it's what I'm doing this very moment, in preperation of my first solo campaign in many years.

I have SM#2 electronically as well but its still the same copyright problem. Have you played around with Starfire Assistant? That is up to date with all of the latest 3rdR rules so you might be able to work backwards from that and there are plenty of people on here who will gladly answer any questions you have about any 3rdR product or rule.

Steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Steve Walmsley »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2007, 06:19:16 AM »
Quote from: "coldsteel"
Anti-Shield Warhead???

I seem to recall that is mentioned in the novels but I don't remember seeing it in the ISW4 module.

Steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Steve Walmsley »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2007, 06:27:00 AM »
Quote from: "crucis"
To extend my remarks in my "That'd be me post" above...

Yes, I am Fred Burton (hence my handle of Crucis), formerly a loyal minion of Dave Weber when he was producing Starfire products.  I haven't stayed in contact with him for a long time, so don't be looking for any scoops on his latest projects.  I'm as much in the dark as any of you.

However, I was/am the creator of The Star Union, the Zarkolyan Empire, The Pitariad (betcha'd LOVE to know who they are), the Laser Torpedo, the Anti-Shield Warhead, the Box Launcher, co-creator of the Gunboat, and nearly every Star Union and Zarkolyan character in The Shiva Option, as well as the "scenarios" in Crucian space shown by Dave and Steve in TSO, and that Starfire map of a part of Crucian space at the front of TSO.  And the ship designer for the Arachnid, Star Union, and Zarkolyan fleets, as shown in ISW4.
That must have been a lot of fun to work on. What I particularly liked about the 3rd edition products was the great depth of background information. I have often reread Stars at War, Crusade and ISW4 simply as an entertaining read, not to play any scenarios. If you still have your notes on the Pitariad, please post them because we would love to know who they are :)

Steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Steve Walmsley »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2007, 06:37:43 AM »
[quote="
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Steve Walmsley »
 

Offline crucis

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« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2007, 08:07:59 AM »
Quote from: "coldsteel"
Anti-Shield Warhead???


Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "coldsteel"
Anti-Shield Warhead???
I seem to recall that is mentioned in the novels but I don't remember seeing it in the ISW4 module.


Oh really...  Marvin cut it out of the SDS release?

OK, I'll give you the ASW description right out of original ISW4 manuscript...



27.10.16 ANTI-SHIELD WARHEAD (ASW): Another invention of the Zarkolyan Empire, the ASW is incapable of inflicting any armor or internal damage on its target and cannot be used, even in sprint-mode, against fighters or small craft. Because of this, some members of the Grand Alliance were initially inclined to dismiss it as a pointless technical curiosity . . . until they realized what it did do.

    An ASW is a purely electronic warhead whose function is to destroy enemy shields, and it does just that. It doesn't burn out fuses or pop circuit-breakers--it burns out the shield generator itself with a focused burst of electromagnetic radiation set for maximum phase interference with the generator. Shields knocked out by ASW may not be reset and cannot be restored with emergency repairs; their generators must be replaced by a shipyard or machine shop module.

     Each ASW hit destroys one shield generator. Hence it would destroy one "S," 3 "S1" or 5 "S2" on a hit. (The player whose ship is damaged selects the exact generator destroyed, but he must select one which was active at the moment the ASW struck; that is, he could not choose to burn out a generator which was already down with popped circuit-breakers when the hit came in.) The ASW may not be fitted to SM, but may be mounted on any "capital missile-sized" missile (i.e., CM, CAM, CAM2, SBM, etc.) Mounting ASW does not affect a missile's hit probability.

The Anti-Shield Warhead was meant to be an HT8 system.




The ASW was designed to be a useful, but safe warhead to use on XO-mounted missiles (as opposed to exceptionally dangerous anti-matter warheaded missiles).  Given that it only destroys shields, its usefulness is a bit limited, but it can be a nice weapon to use at the start of a battle to strip an enemy's shields.  (Of course, using a full load of XO mounted Laser Torps can just wreck your target's day as well.)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by crucis »
 

Offline crucis

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« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2007, 08:22:27 AM »
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "crucis"
To extend my remarks in my "That'd be me post" above...

Yes, I am Fred Burton (hence my handle of Crucis), formerly a loyal minion of Dave Weber when he was producing Starfire products.  I haven't stayed in contact with him for a long time, so don't be looking for any scoops on his latest projects.  I'm as much in the dark as any of you.

However, I was/am the creator of The Star Union, the Zarkolyan Empire, The Pitariad (betcha'd LOVE to know who they are), the Laser Torpedo, the Anti-Shield Warhead, the Box Launcher, co-creator of the Gunboat, and nearly every Star Union and Zarkolyan character in The Shiva Option, as well as the "scenarios" in Crucian space shown by Dave and Steve in TSO, and that Starfire map of a part of Crucian space at the front of TSO.  And the ship designer for the Arachnid, Star Union, and Zarkolyan fleets, as shown in ISW4.

That must have been a lot of fun to work on. What I particularly liked about the 3rd edition products was the great depth of background information. I have often reread Stars at War, Crusade and ISW4 simply as an entertaining read, not to play any scenarios. If you still have your notes on the Pitariad, please post them because we would love to know who they are :)

Steve


Steve, which battle are you refering to above  ("is there any chance you still have the details of this battle and the background story?")?  Are you asking about the First Battle of Rabahl, or the battles between Menkasahr and Beylaktuur?  For 1st Rabahl, what I wrote above is about the limit of my info.  For the battles between Menkasahr and Beylaktuur, I do have more.  ;)    But like with most of my notes, it would need to be pulled together.  Still, I know the general outline of that set of battles.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by crucis »
 

 

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