Reffiting ships - yay or nay?

[Alfapiomega (OP)]

-- EDIT --

Hey everyone,

one thing that I would like to ask is - do you guys refit your ships? Or do you rather build new ones?

For 95% of the game it seems to not be worth it at all to upgrade your ships (but I still like to do it for RP's sake) as the costs exceed new models coming straight from the shipyards. Which is very far from the current model of our armies where things like ships, planes and even tanks receive periodical updates and refits that make them again combat ready. This however in Aurora can't really be done (or it can but you are wasting resources) and I think it should be changed. I am not sure if there is any reason for why changing several systems in a ship results in 150% cost of a new ship.
So I ask - what do you guys think about it? Would you use it? Is there something I am missing which makes upgrades of spacecraft really so hard that it's better to build new ones instead?

[Paul M]

Uhm...well to be honest I refit my ships a lot.

The Terrier class were on Mod1.4 (the 5th refit to the class).  The BIC fleet was refit continously as new engines were developed.  The Tribals will be refit to the Mod2.3 standard relatively quickly as all the modern electronics is now available, although I may delay to install also the upgraded shield generators.

Refitting the ships as you develop new technology is only sensible.  With a conventional start it is going to happen regardless.  The replacement of ships would result in scrapping but so long as the hull size is part of your force make up, periodic refits with new technology is to me absolutely typical.

As the game is constantly complaining about some morale error due to deployment overflow I'm scrapping older ships and building newer ones.  But that is sensible enough as most of those ships have been in use for over 30 years, nearly 40 in some cases.

I also have the feeling the question must be poorly worded as I can't fathom why you would think that for 95% of the game refits are not required.

[IanD]

Yes I refit some ships, >10,000 tons usually or whatever I am calling cruisers at the time. They would get one or two engine upgrades, skipping one or two generations, EW, FC, shields and sensors. I only occasionally upgrade weapons. I don't refit armour.
Principal reason for refitting is its usually quicker than training up a new ship especially with pre-built components.
Ian

[Alfapiomega (OP)]

Uhm...well to be honest I refit my ships a lot.

The Terrier class were on Mod1.4 (the 5th refit to the class).  The BIC fleet was refit continously as new engines were developed.  The Tribals will be refit to the Mod2.3 standard relatively quickly as all the modern electronics is now available, although I may delay to install also the upgraded shield generators.

Refitting the ships as you develop new technology is only sensible.  With a conventional start it is going to happen regardless.  The replacement of ships would result in scrapping but so long as the hull size is part of your force make up, periodic refits with new technology is to me absolutely typical.

As the game is constantly complaining about some morale error due to deployment overflow I'm scrapping older ships and building newer ones.  But that is sensible enough as most of those ships have been in use for over 30 years, nearly 40 in some cases.

I also have the feeling the question must be poorly worded as I can't fathom why you would think that for 95% of the game refits are not required.

OK, I had a coffer and after reading what you wrote I understand what was wrong with my statement.

The thing I am trying to point out that it is usually more economic to scrap the ships and build new ones than refit the old ones. The cost of the refit is most of the times (95%) more expensive than building and entire new ship. Which is what I was trying to point out. In no way did I mean that refitting ships is a bad idea. I do it too despite the costs that are higher than building new ships.

In reality there are frequent refits that take place every few years. In terms of Aurora that would mean you pay incredible amounts of resources as the game almost always tells you it is a better idea to start from scratch.

[Alfapiomega (OP)]

Yes I refit some ships, >10,000 tons usually or whatever I am calling cruisers at the time. They would get one or two engine upgrades, skipping one or two generations, EW, FC, shields and sensors. I only occasionally upgrade weapons. I don't refit armour.
Principal reason for refitting is its usually quicker than training up a new ship especially with pre-built components.
Ian

That is true, the training is the only benefit. But the costs of building a new ship is is sometimes 50% less than if you refit your old model. Even if you are using the same basic technology, just with higher/lower modifiers.

[Haji]

It really depends on how extensive your refit is. I usually only replace engines to keep my fleet at the same speed and it's almost always worth it (refit costs are usually below 20% in such cases). Sometimes I may upgrade more, but one thing I never upgrade is armor, as this screws up your ship so much the refit is just not worth is.

I also remember someone (might have been Erik, but I'm not sure) always doing refits in two stages. Stage one would be the upgrade of engines, stage two would be the upgrade of electronics.

Of course a lot depends on play style. In my games I usually have quite low number of research facilities to avoid the old age "obsolete before even coming out" problem of many 4x games (where I usually concentrate on research and end up never building ships as my technology is progressing far too fast). In such cases refitting engines  happens rarely enough to not take much yard time (in terms of percentages; absolute time may be large) and not much resources. If someone is progressing technologically fast, it may indeed not be worth it.

[Jorgen_CAB]

Yes, as have been pointed out you must refit your ships in stages and not more than one system at a time, it also is somewhat realistic.

On spaceships in Aurora engines are usually the most extensive and expensive piece to upgrade so make sure you don't have too big or expensive engines on your most numerous ships so you can refit them from time to time. One problem that some might face with engine is if your engine tech is higher than you average weapon or sensor tech then the engines will be proportionally more expensive and so very hard to retrofit. For example trying to refit a ship from conventional engines to nuclear thermal engines will be too costly because of the great difference in cost between them.

It can also help to somewhat diversify your ships with different weapon systems and don't use too big sensors on smaller hulls, they will make refits all too expensive. In general I find that too much specialization can mess with your ability to refit ships in general.

Also make sure that upgraded ships have the same size, deviation in size makes it very expensive to refit.

I rarely have problem with retrofitting ships if I designed them to be able to from the start. Just make sure no single component you want to upgrade is not too big a cost of the ship. Try to make sure no single part of the ship is more than about 20% of the total cost and you will be fine.

[Erik L]

I also remember someone (might have been Erik, but I'm not sure) always doing refits in two stages. Stage one would be the upgrade of engines, stage two would be the upgrade of electronics.

Could be me. That's how I do it. I think a number of others also do it that way too though.

[Barkhorn]

but if you upgrade in stages, don't you still get the total cost over that of a brand new ship?

Sure, each individual upgrade might be cheaper than replacing the whole ship, but once you add them up, won't that be the same as a new ship?

If not, why?  It seems crazy that for some reason its cheaper to change all the same systems one at a time as opposed to all at once.

[Haji]

I upgrade in stages, because my technology progression is rather slow and I value my fleet having uniform speed. That means I always replace engines as soon as practical and if there is something really important in terms of electronics, than I may or may not replace them. Replacing weapons is very rare for me - it's expensive and yard expansion means it's usually best to just put new, better weapons on new, larger vessel.

As for whether or not it's cheaper to upgrade in stages - I don't know. It may or may not be. But even if it is, there is also the question of time - is replacing everything at once quicker than replacing parts in stages? Because if it is, then I'd argue it's a good balance - pay more to get everything quicker or take your time and cheaply update your ships.

[Jorgen_CAB]

When you refit a ship you basically pay for the retooling and the components you change out. On the whole it is faster to retool in small steps which also mean less cost for the retooling process in time and resources.

One of the main benefits are that if you scrap the ship you will have to repay for thing like crew quarters, armour, engineering sections and fuel storage etc... so overall it can get cheaper in both time and resources, not to mention saving the experience and fleet training of your ships.

[Erik L]

Another thing I don't think has been mentioned is the fact that refit will maintain crew training.

[Whitecold]

It really depends on what you refit. I find it usually only useful to refit systems that increase performance you can't make up with numbers.
Missile launchers, armor, magazines, power plants etc. are all best left alone.
Firecontrol, sensors, engines and ECM are what I usually refit, and maybe PD beams on large ships.

[Jorgen_CAB]

Yes I would agree, refit just for the sake of refit is not always the best strategy. I refit important system for my current doctrines, be it sensors, weapons or engines. It will depend on the ship and overall needs. At some point you will likely replace a ship with a completely new model, this is more true the smaller a ship is I guess. Larger ships with more different systems can usually last for a long time. I have had ships last for nearly a hundred years with dozens of different refits. But it will depend highly on the type of ship and what its purpose is.

[Erik L]

I tend to refit when there is a new generation of engines, or as a separate refit the electronics suite. It has to be more than just fire control though (unless that's it on the ship). A third refit category is weapons. I'll refit to pull old slower launchers out and replace with newer, faster ones.

Hulls (armor), I very very rarely refit. That is usually time for a new ship class with the latest in everything.