Author Topic: C# Aurora Changes Discussion  (Read 449151 times)

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Offline alex_brunius

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1095 on: November 05, 2017, 06:36:06 PM »
I like the idea of Urban becoming the dominant terrain type once the population hits a certain percentage of maximum.

Wouldn't it be neat if you could expand the population capacity above max by building infrastructure, and if it went a certain amount above "max" natural it would represent en entire body of skyscrapers?

You would need alot more then 12 billion population on Earth for Urban to become the dominant "terrain" for example.
 

Offline Zincat

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1096 on: November 05, 2017, 06:53:58 PM »
The more I think about it, the more I like this latest development post.

Realistically speaking, against heavily fortified planets with difficult biomes you either 1) bombard with missiles from very long range and render the planet inhabitable or 2) get a lot of boots/robots/alien appendages on the ground.

As it should be.  This is a staple of practically every sci-fi setting. Massive orbital bombardment is generally only for reducing a planet to inhospitable rubble, if you want to conquer it, you have to land on it.
 

Offline Hazard

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1097 on: November 05, 2017, 07:28:02 PM »
It will be just one dominant terrain type. Not that realistic but much better than now. One interesting question is what is the dominant terrain type on Earth? At the moment I am leaning toward Temperate Forest, although I could perhaps add some form of mixed terrain type with a single set of values.

A very strong argument can be made Temperate Forest is correct. With the increasing temperature that can change (the most plausible end result from current data seems to be much greater desertification until rain patterns stabilize, at which point the savannahs and tropical forests are liable to grow. Time until that happens; unknown). I'd rather not have Earth create an exception though, so use the single biome system.

I understand why you use it; it's much simpler than the alternative.

Also, whenever I find a planet with a Mountain base terrain I'm going to raise its temperature to 35 degrees. It means the only possible result is jungle mountains.

There is no biosphere concept at the moment, although I will probably add indigenous lifeforms that could pose a threat to any colony. The new ground combat system will allow a wide variety of potential non-sentient foes. They would have to be cleared, or at least defended against, to ensure the safety of any colony. Any local wildlife would be adapted to the environment and have appropriate capabilities.

Please don't go for the standard 'hyper focused super predators obsessed with eating man.' It's stupid. Rather, go for something that cannot meaningfully impact settlement. I mean, seriously, bears and lions and wolves and large cats are really dangerous animals, make no mistake, but wolves and bears went extinct in much of Europe for a reason, and we've got much better weapons these days.

No group of wild animals could meaningfully impact a planetary population of humans, especially when said population is armed with and/or protected by armed people that carry military weapons and information gathering tools. Microbial life is far more dangerous because it's harder to detect and easier to spread, while a rush by even a thousand heads strong herd of cattle would not do more than destroy one or two villages before heavy weapons turn them into mince.

You would need alot more then 12 billion population on Earth for Urban to become the dominant "terrain" for example.

Not really.

Dominant Terrain doesn't really describe the dominant terrain of the planet, it describes the dominant terrain that is being fought over. Since the invention of rail travel we've been seeing a lot of consolidation of populations into cities and away from rural areas for a variety of reasons, but the two biggest factors are to do with farming automation greatly driving down staffing requirements for food production, and rail ways making it possible to bring all that food large distances. Without either of those factors population centers would've been much smaller, much more numerous and more scattered.

This will be something that affects our settlement pattern on other planets too.

With farms and food processing systems that are completely or nearly completely automated and the ability to ship their produce across a continent in days and thus before it spoils there is no incentive to create an expansive network of cities across a planet based on the availability of food. Worse, with the fact that trans newtonian technology apparently comes with nearly limitless energy for free you aren't even limited anymore to things like seasons, the sun and weather patterns; all production can be done indoors in vast glass houses with machinery rolling over tracks along beds of produce.

Instead, you are liable to see cities settled on and around places rich in mineral wealth and all food shipped in or produced in hydroponics systems, where the first mines on the planet are established along with the refinement plants for those minerals. Because a ship and harbour are much easier to build than an expansive railway network and you are going to need water anyway these cities are likely to be build on rivers and close to the coasts of large bodies of water where possible.

New mines will radiate out from these new cities but not be followed by new refinement plants unless production capacity becomes enough in demand to establish new plants and doing so is cheaper in the long run when done close to the mines. This is because transportation is dirt cheap with boats, and once the infrastructure cost has been sunk dirt cheap and fast with trains.


All of which boils down to one thing; once planetary population becomes numerous enough nearly all things worth fighting for are in urban environments. It doesn't matter if this means bridges, factories, government offices or something else; you cannot meaningfully impact an enemy's combat ability without having to go through urban environments to get there even if those things aren't in an urban environment.

And that means urban environments are the dominant terrain of those planets. That's where you fight.


Of course, urban terrain as dominant terrain is going to suck horribly for the civilians. Collateral damage is going to sky rocket in comparison to... pretty much every other type of dominant terrain.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 07:31:48 PM by Hazard »
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1098 on: November 05, 2017, 08:27:15 PM »
Not really.

Dominant Terrain doesn't really describe the dominant terrain of the planet, it describes the dominant terrain that is being fought over. Since the invention of rail travel we've been seeing a lot of consolidation of populations into cities and away from rural areas for a variety of reasons, but the two biggest factors are to do with farming automation greatly driving down staffing requirements for food production, and rail ways making it possible to bring all that food large distances.

This line of thought logically must mean that the terrain of all planets regardless of population and actual countryside is urban then because as you yourself describe the portion of the population that lives in cities depends on technology.

We don't live in cities today because there is no space in the countryside, but because it's more convenient and efficient, and extrapolating the tech to TN there is no job requiring you to live on the countryside that can't be automated or remote controlled from a city.
 

Offline MarcAFK

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1099 on: November 06, 2017, 12:12:28 AM »
I agree with the idea that Urban is the dominant terrain for ground combat purposes. However I think some combat should still occur on the pre urbanized dominant terrain type.
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Offline serger

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1100 on: November 06, 2017, 12:23:21 AM »
It will be just one dominant terrain type. Not that realistic but much better than now.

Have a pair of suggestions, that can simplify situation:

1.
You can separate this conception of terrain into 3 different parameters:
a. Terrain type (geophysical, not geographical) - Extreme Plane, Rift, Mixed, Extreme Mountain - set by temperature and tectonics, and dictates possible biome types.
b. Biome type - None, Dry, Moderate, Humid - dictates possible habitation types.
c. Habitation type - None, Rural, Agglomeration, Surepurban.

2.
Really, I think, you need a concept of preferable zones, not a one dominant zone.
a. Habitation preferable zone - type (1.a,1.b) with a specification of planet surface percent, that can change during terraforming.
b. Defence preferable zone - type only, because some small percent of full land area will be enough to dig million-sized army on.

So, our Earth will be described as:
Mixed terrain type.
Habitation preferable zone - Plane Moderate, ~20%, Agglomeration.
Defence preferable zone - Mountain Humid (Jungle), as our StO defences will be set on their best possible positions, not on the most common.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 12:40:09 AM by serger »
 

Offline serger

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1101 on: November 06, 2017, 12:51:08 AM »
On-the-run note:
Cavernouse placing for defence. Depends on tectonics?
 

Offline El Pip

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1102 on: November 06, 2017, 01:51:32 AM »
"Ground units of species with certain types of home world may gain capabilities for free (if you are from a desert planet, you would gain Desert Warfare for free, for example)."

Could this be changed to the capability being based on where the Ground Force Training Facility is, not the homeworld? I like the idea of setting up training camps on various extreme worlds to train up the 17th "Smoking Jaguars" Jungle Division or the Ice Wolves of Proxima Brigade or whatever.
 
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Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1103 on: November 06, 2017, 06:39:43 AM »
Something else that occurred to me was that I am basing the terrain on current Earth. There could be a lot of alien terrain (Giant fungus forest?) or even terrain from Earth's past.
 
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Offline alex_brunius

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1104 on: November 06, 2017, 07:26:56 AM »
Something else that occurred to me was that I am basing the terrain on current Earth. There could be a lot of alien terrain (Giant fungus forest?) or even terrain from Earth's past.

What about planets where all life evolved subterranian? Hivemind insect homeworlds and so on?
 

Offline bean

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1105 on: November 06, 2017, 07:35:32 AM »
What about planets where all life evolved subterranian? Hivemind insect homeworlds and so on?
What's your energy source there?  Life is on the surface because the energy is there.  Yes, I know about extremophiles living in deep-sea vents or geysers in Yellowstone.  But the surface seems overwhelmingly likely, particularly for complex life.

Re terrain, fantastic to hear.  I can't wait to try it out.  How fast does terrain change during terraforming?  Creating jungle mountains on your fortress world sounds great, but unless you're actively seeding, I can't see how it could grow in less than a couple centuries.  Even with seeding, it would probably take decades.
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Offline Hazard

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1106 on: November 06, 2017, 07:39:04 AM »
Something else that occurred to me was that I am basing the terrain on current Earth. There could be a lot of alien terrain (Giant fungus forest?) or even terrain from Earth's past.

... Forest is forest.

It matters more how obstructive it is than it matters what exactly it's made off.

Also, a giant fungus forest won't ever be a thing unless there's a vast supply of fuel ready to be consumed by chemo-autotrophic lifeforms. Photosynthetic life is shaped the way it is for very good reasons.
 

Offline TCD

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1107 on: November 06, 2017, 09:29:53 AM »
I love the new biomes, but think the system could be made even better by expanding it from just combat to economic effects as well. For example, in the real world biomes like mountains make travel difficult and construction expensive, impacting wealth generation.

Three obvious additions would be:

Wealth - any rift valley biome has a small wealth modifer (-10%?). Any mountain biome has a large wealth modifier (-20%?). Forest/jungle/swamp should impose a further 10% penalty on top of that. A jungle mountain colony will be expensive to maintain.
Population growth - jungles and swamps should have a population growth penalty to represent the generally unhealthy and hazardous environment.
Occupation strength - apply the biome to-hit modifer to occupation strength. Those subjugated aliens can hide just as well in the jungle as your troops can.

Changes like that give a further interesting choice to picking colony locations. A jungle mountain colony? Sure, its great to defend, but a savanna colony will grow faster and make more money.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1108 on: November 06, 2017, 10:10:09 AM »
I did have construction speed modifiers in my original version but then removed on the basis it would be too much. Would be happy to put such economic modifiers back in if there is general demand.

Also, when I finally get around to biological warfare, plagues, etc.. there will be some downsides to terrain types such as Jungles.
 

Offline iceball3

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1109 on: November 06, 2017, 10:34:40 AM »
What's your energy source there?  Life is on the surface because the energy is there.  Yes, I know about extremophiles living in deep-sea vents or geysers in Yellowstone.  But the surface seems overwhelmingly likely, particularly for complex life.
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