Author Topic: Trying for PD missile ship  (Read 953 times)

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Offline Detros

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Trying for PD missile ship
« on: June 22, 2017, 06:02:16 AM »
Well, I figured I will try dipping my toes properly in the missiles after all. So how does my first PD missile ship look to you?
Thanks to those magazines it has 50 % more of HTK and one more layer of armour than my laser destroyers so that's why I set it as AD type.
Code: [Select]
Huracan class Armoured Destroyer    7,500 tons     150 Crew     1310.04 BP      TCS 150  TH 691  EM 180
4606 km/s     Armour 6-34     Shields 6-300     Sensors 11/11/0/0     Damage Control Rating 5     PPV 10
Maint Life 3.75 Years     MSP 600    AFR 81%    IFR 1.1%    1YR 67    5YR 999    Max Repair 155.52 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 15 months    Spare Berths 0   
Magazine 500   

Cameron-Sharp 345.6 EP Magneto-plasma Drive (2)    Power 345.6    Fuel Use 29.2%    Signature 345.6    Exp 9%
Fuel Capacity 650,000 Litres    Range 53.4 billion km   (134 days at full power)
Rahman-Gould Epsilon R300/360 Shields (2)   Total Fuel Cost  30 Litres per hour  (720 per day)

Rhodes-Hobbs Size 1 Missile Launcher RR5 (10)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 5
Jordan-Ahmed Missile Fire Control FC6-R1 AAS21-110 (5)     Range 6.9m km    Resolution 1
Sonora Close AMM MSP1 CTH528-176-106-53 (300)  Speed: 24,000 km/s   End: 0.8m    Range: 1.2m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 176/105/52
Baranda Middle AMM MSP1 CTH528-176-106-53 (200)  Speed: 24,000 km/s   End: 6.6m    Range: 9.6m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 176/105/52

Jordan-Ahmed Active Search Sensor MR6-R1 AAS63-110 (1)     GPS 63     Range 6.9m km    MCR 755k km    Resolution 1
Pugh-Green Thermal Sensor TH1-11 (1)     Sensitivity 11     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  11m km
Pugh-Green EM Detection Sensor EM1-11 (1)     Sensitivity 11     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  11m km

ECM 10

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
Btw, is "End" endurance in minutes? Weirdly in the Missile design screen it shows only rounded to full minutes.
 

Offline Barkhorn

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Re: Trying for PD missile ship
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2017, 11:15:26 AM »
Why do you have two kinds of missiles with the same speed and hit chances?

The Sonora has the same speed, warhead, size, and to-hit chances as the Baranda, but the Baranda has ~8x as much range.

Why not just carry 500 Barandas instead of 300 Sonoras?

Missiles seem kinda slow for MPD AMM's.  Did you use your highest power boost?
 

Offline Detros

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Re: Trying for PD missile ship
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2017, 11:45:40 AM »
Yes, currently maximum x3 engine, 0.5 MSP.
I am trying to play without Sorium harvesters. Baranda needs 8 times fuel than Sonora. I thought I can save this way as Barandas can go for big missiles at the max sensor range while Sonoras are for small missiles. Or if there are lots of missiles incoming I can start with Barandas and as enemy missiles get closer I switch to fuel-wise cheaper Sonoras. That were my thoughts.

Effective-wise they are the same and that was the best hit chances I managed to get after trying multiple engine sizes and tweaking agility. Thought  I have found 34m of 0.9 Sorium recently so I will soon merge Sonora and Baranda designs into one with not so much fuel-saving in mind. Work on better missiles is ongoing but I was rather asking here about the ship itself.
 

Offline Titanian

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Re: Trying for PD missile ship
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2017, 12:00:11 PM »
I would exchange one or two fire controls for more launchers, currently you have 2/fc, but you will probably need more like five of your AMMs for every targeted ASM of the same tech level.

The ranges of your missiles are a lot longer than your detection capabilities against the usual missiles, but I guess having a few longer ranged ones for emergency use against ships is ok.
 

Offline Detros

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Re: Trying for PD missile ship
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2017, 02:27:00 PM »
I would exchange one or two fire controls for more launchers, currently you have 2/fc, but you will probably need more like five of your AMMs for every targeted ASM of the same tech level.

The ranges of your missiles are a lot longer than your detection capabilities against the usual missiles, but I guess having a few longer ranged ones for emergency use against ships is ok.
10k km/s ASM = 52 % hit for one AMM
20k km/s ASM = 26 % hit for one AMM = 74 % miss for one AMM
0.74^4 = 0.299 = 30 % miss for 4 AMMs
0.74^5 = 0.222 = 22.2 % miss for 5 AMMs

If I am counting it right there is 30 % chance to miss when shooting at 20k km/s ASM with a flock of four Sonoras/Barandas of current level.
For 5 AMMs it goes down only to 22.2 %. Chmmm.

Yes, those AMMs need more work but first let's tweak the launcher ship. What about this?
Removed 2x shield and instead of 5-10 MFC/launchers used 4-16 ratio. HTK still at 99, with 4/6 magazines though 2/9 were possible too but 16 magazines seemed like too much for such big ship.

Code: [Select]
Huracan class Armoured Destroyer    7,500 tons     160 Crew     1284.2 BP      TCS 150  TH 691  EM 0
4606 km/s     Armour 6-34     Shields 0-0     Sensors 11/11/0/0     Damage Control Rating 5     PPV 16
Maint Life 3.77 Years     MSP 589    AFR 81%    IFR 1.1%    1YR 65    5YR 972    Max Repair 155.52 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 16 months    Spare Berths 0   
Magazine 512   

Cameron-Sharp 345.6 EP Magneto-plasma Drive (2)    Power 345.6    Fuel Use 29.2%    Signature 345.6    Exp 9%
Fuel Capacity 615,000 Litres    Range 50.5 billion km   (126 days at full power)

Rhodes-Hobbs Size 1 Missile Launcher RR5 (16)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 5
Jordan-Ahmed Missile Fire Control FC6-R1 AAS21-110 (4)     Range 6.9m km    Resolution 1
Sonora Close AMM MSP1 CTH528-176-106-53 (352)  Speed: 24,000 km/s   End: 0.8m    Range: 1.2m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 176/105/52
Baranda Middle AMM MSP1 CTH528-176-106-53 (160)  Speed: 24,000 km/s   End: 6.6m    Range: 9.6m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 176/105/52

Jordan-Ahmed Active Search Sensor MR6-R1 AAS63-110 (1)     GPS 63     Range 6.9m km    MCR 755k km    Resolution 1
Pugh-Green Thermal Sensor TH1-11 (1)     Sensitivity 11     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  11m km
Pugh-Green EM Detection Sensor EM1-11 (1)     Sensitivity 11     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  11m km

ECM 10

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
I have just noted I forgot to shield these engines but as I have already managed to put them into several designs... meh, will fix next time.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 02:47:11 PM by Detros »
 

Offline Detros

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Re: Trying for PD missile ship
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2017, 04:45:24 PM »
Researched higher power boost, agility and warhead:
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Sonora II Close AMM MSP1 CTH812-261-162-81 (352)  Speed: 28,000 km/s   End: 0.8m    Range: 1.3m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 270/162/81With four of these assigned to one MFC I think I should get 0,595^4 = 12.5 % chance of complete miss when facing 20k kmps ASM.
 

Offline TT

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Re: Trying for PD missile ship
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2017, 07:58:48 PM »
Detros,

Everything looks ok but I'll mention two hings that jump out to me. First, you seem to have almost twice as much MSP as you need.  Your max repair is 155 so I'd aim to have a little more than 310 MSP. I think that would roughly match your deployment time well too. So you can cut your engineering a little.

The other thing is that you are getting 10 launchers on a ship that is 7500 tons. This is a specialized ship and is focussed on delivering AAM missile support. It should have a lot more launchers. I usually aim to deploy my size 1 launchers in groups of three with a fc for each group.  I'd ditch your shields, reduce your armor and look to get between 21 and 30 launchers on this ship.

Good luck
 

Offline Detros

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Re: Trying for PD missile ship
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2017, 09:43:04 PM »
Detros,

Everything looks ok but I'll mention two hings that jump out to me. First, you seem to have almost twice as much MSP as you need.  Your max repair is 155 so I'd aim to have a little more than 310 MSP. I think that would roughly match your deployment time well too. So you can cut your engineering a little.

The other thing is that you are getting 10 launchers on a ship that is 7500 tons. This is a specialized ship and is focussed on delivering AAM missile support. It should have a lot more launchers. I usually aim to deploy my size 1 launchers in groups of three with a fc for each group.  I'd ditch your shields, reduce your armor and look to get between 21 and 30 launchers on this ship.

Good luck
Thanks. I noted the maintenance requirements are lower but I didn't want to go under 5 with Damage Control Rating. Damage Control component is currently a queued research.
The first version has 5 MFCs and 10 launchers, the second one has 4 MFCs and 16 launchers.
 

Offline Iranon

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Re: Trying for PD missile ship
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2017, 12:33:37 AM »
I'd probably go for longer range, sensors/FC being more important than the missiles themselves.

Twice the engagement envelope is almost as good as twice the number of launchers and fire controls.
 

Offline TT

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Re: Trying for PD missile ship
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2017, 04:41:25 PM »
Thanks. I noted the maintenance requirements are lower but I didn't want to go under 5 with Damage Control Rating. Damage Control component is currently a queued research.
The first version has 5 MFCs and 10 launchers, the second one has 4 MFCs and 16 launchers.

After I wrote my post I realized I was commenting on the wrong version, sorry. 16 is getting close to the right number but I'd put more on.  20 - 30 is better for a ship that size.
 

Offline Michael Sandy

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Re: Trying for PD missile ship
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2017, 07:22:00 PM »
I am curious that you got to 5 second reload tech for AMMs which is a pretty huge investment, compared to your other missile and drive tech.

I am going to be a bit contrarian on the range, however.  Until you get really high boost tech, I advise having AMM missiles the same range as your AMM sensors vs 50 ton objects.  You really do not lose much accuracy that way, and they are useful anti-fighter/LAC missiles.

You have the option of making use of the full range against missiles if you have small AMM sensor ships that fly ahead of your fleet.

 

Offline Detros

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Re: Trying for PD missile ship
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2017, 12:12:27 AM »
I am curious that you got to 5 second reload tech for AMMs which is a pretty huge investment, compared to your other missile and drive tech.
Well, I am ~42 years in from conventional start and I am churning research labs all the time. I currently have ~80 together, with power and logistic branches moved to colonies with anomalies so other branches can now use more labs of Earth.

For long years I also didn't have energy weapons scientist and my kinetic weapon one was the first to reach +60% bonus. With rank high enough for 35 labs those ~38000 research points per year can make quick progress on starting techs. Currently he is with ~12 labs working on 75k Gauss Cannon rate of fire 5.

I am only starting with missile ships but having 5s reload seemed to me like a basic requirement for AMM ship. I have met several enemies who liked to fire streams of AMMs just 5s apart.
 

Offline Titanian

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Re: Trying for PD missile ship
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2017, 07:36:55 AM »
Well, if you expect enemy ASMs to make 20kkm/s, then I guess your AMMs are fine. It's just that I have the following:

Code: [Select]
Admiral 2 ASM
Missile Size: 3 MSP  (0.15 HS)     Warhead: 4    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 11
Speed: 19800 km/s    Engine Endurance: 128 minutes   Range: 152.0m km
EM Sensor Strength: 0.0198    Detect Sig Strength 1000:  19 800 km
built with a 330% boosted ion drive. If it had an magneto-plasma drive, it would make 26400 km/s and would thus be faster than your first generation AMMs, thats why I said they migth be too slow, as with bad luck with the increments, they might get jumped over by faster missiles and then never be able to catch up.
 

Offline obsidian_green

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Re: Trying for PD missile ship
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2017, 11:51:28 AM »
I'm impressed by folks' ability to build these lean warships instead of the expensive hefties that have been my first designs. (Though I'm not complaining too much; I did a lot of reading here [some of the advice coming from you, Detros] and at the wiki and built ships that perform exactly as I intended them and which proved extremely capable against a threat I didn't anticipate.)

As others have said, AMMs should probably be faster with magneto-plasma drive. I built my first missiles at internal fusion tech, but the slowest of those was a size-6 ASM with 100 million km range and a strength-12 warhead ... and it still clocked in at 33,700km/s, which you can probably match or exceed at magneto-plasma with a size-1, short-ranger.
 

Offline Detros

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Re: Trying for PD missile ship
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2017, 08:53:49 AM »
As others have said, AMMs should probably be faster with magneto-plasma drive. I built my first missiles at internal fusion tech, but the slowest of those was a size-6 ASM with 100 million km range and a strength-12 warhead ... and it still clocked in at 33,700km/s, which you can probably match or exceed at magneto-plasma with a size-1, short-ranger.
I could get bit higher speed and hit chances if the AMM is made sub1 sized. But missiles need to be at least of size 1.

I could do this sub-sized trick for missiles intended for size 2 PDC AMM launchers which are 1.9414 missiles instead of pure size 2 ones. PDCs are twice as fast at reloading so with lev6 reloading tech you can have 5s reload on size 2 PDC launcher.

Here for the comparison all three missiles of generation 1:
Code: [Select]
Sonora Close AMM MSP1 CTH528-176-106-53  Speed: 24,000 km/s   End: 0.8m    Range: 1.2m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 176/105/52
Baranda Middle AMM MSP1 CTH528-176-106-53  Speed: 24,000 km/s   End: 6.6m    Range: 9.6m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 176/105/52
Thuria Middle AMM MSP1.9414 CTH667-216-133-67  Speed: 24,700 km/s   End: 8m    Range: 11.8m km   WH: 1    Size: 1.9414    TH: 222/133/66

I have then managed to corrupt my save file with too much zooming in System map so after I went back like half a year and had to redesign Sonora IIs, I gave them more range this time (2M instead of 1.3M):
Code: [Select]
Sonora II Close AMM MSP1 CTH812-261-162-81 (192)  Speed: 28,000 km/s   End: 1.2m    Range: 2m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 270/162/81I am now working on better sensors to match the MCR distance with range of Sonora II.
 

 

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