Author Topic: What's the interaction between greenhouse and anti-greenhouse?  (Read 2218 times)

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Offline Ashery (OP)

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The calculation for how the greenhouse pressure influences temperature is easy enough, but there's absolutely no mention of the anti-greenhouse pressure. Is it factored into the same equation or is it a completely separate modifier?

I'm asking because I'm in the following situation: There's a planet in a system adjacent to Sol that would make a perfect spot to locate a long term sector command. The furthest system from the new location that I'm looking at colonizing would require a radius of five and contains ruins and a nearly habitable world (0.67 colony cost), but there are closer systems that are highly useful as well and I don't want to build half a dozen smaller sector commands to cover all of the systems.

The problem? Said planet is sitting on a colony cost of 24.31, a surface temp of 578C, and a pressure of 14.2, of which is 98% carbon dioxide. In other words, were it not for the 3.0 cap on the greenhouse effect, I'd be looking at a value of over 16. This is why I'm asking the original question. If the AGG is a separate modifier, I'd be able to get the colony cost down to a more reasonable level quickly and start shipping colonists within a few years. If it's included in the original equation, ie before the artificial cap is put into place, I'm pretty much frakked on the terraforming front and will have to divert industry to produce orbital habitats, if I decide to go through with the plan at all.
 

Offline ardem

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Re: What's the interaction between greenhouse and anti-greenhouse?
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2011, 01:00:04 AM »
Pressure of 14.2 is high, and most of it is carbon dioxide, what i would be do is reducing the carbon dioxide gases which is creating the greenhouse effect. With a pressure that high you might find you just need to reduce it to the point where it is livable.

 

Offline Ashery (OP)

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Re: What's the interaction between greenhouse and anti-greenhouse?
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2011, 01:22:11 AM »
And it's because the pressure is so high that it'd take decades to make *any* change due to the fact that the greenhouse effect caps at 3.0, while the current "effective" amount is above 16. I'd have to vent over 12atm worth of carbon dioxide before the temperature even begins to decrease.

However, if the anti-greenhouse value influences things outside of the capped equation, I could pump 1-2atm of AGG into the atmosphere, drop the colony cost to a more reasonable level, and then leave my terraformers to do their decades long work while construction goes on on the surface.

Even if it the AGG is taken into account before the cap is put into effect, it still might be worthwhile to pump in some AGG to get that temperature reduction sooner, but I need to know the exact equation to make that determination.
 

Offline Klapaucius87

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Re: What's the interaction between greenhouse and anti-greenhouse?
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2011, 07:45:39 AM »
Anti greenhouse gases work as the opposite of greenhouse. 1 atm of greenhouse add 1 to the greenhouse factor, 1 atm of anti greenhouse will subtract 1.
In that case u would need 14 atm of anti greenhouse to neutralize the carbon dioxine, that is a greenhouse gas. Over that adding gases to atmosphere increase pressure, that increase the greenhouse factor even more.
In the end if u want to terraform it is better remove the carbon dioxine.
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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Re: What's the interaction between greenhouse and anti-greenhouse?
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2011, 09:18:00 AM »
Sounds like your better off with orbital habitats instead of terraforming.
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley
 

Offline voknaar

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Re: What's the interaction between greenhouse and anti-greenhouse?
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2011, 02:06:15 PM »
Adding 14 Atm of anti greenhouse gas will not lower costs anyway. Instead its cost will be about 28 because of the pressure factor.
 

Offline Ashery (OP)

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Re: What's the interaction between greenhouse and anti-greenhouse?
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2011, 03:35:16 PM »
Yea, looks to be that way.

I was simply hoping that the AGG wasn't in an additive relationship with the GG.

What's funny is that the AGG can bring down any planet to absolute zero with a mere 1.11atm, but only when that planet is starting with no atmosphere.

Oh, and adding the 14atm of AGG would bring the pressure cost to 7, but at that point I'd be better off simply venting the 14atm of GG.
 

Offline voknaar

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Re: What's the interaction between greenhouse and anti-greenhouse?
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2011, 04:20:55 PM »
Yea, looks to be that way.

I was simply hoping that the AGG wasn't in an additive relationship with the GG.

What's funny is that the AGG can bring down any planet to absolute zero with a mere 1.11atm, but only when that planet is starting with no atmosphere.

Oh, and adding the 14atm of AGG would bring the pressure cost to 7, but at that point I'd be better off simply venting the 14atm of GG.

I was talking about the total pressure of the planet which is what determins the cost as far as pressure goes. If it's outside the Min/Max tollerence then you will have a colony cost of 2.

Edit: Adding 14 ATM of AGG won't lower presure at all. Only subtraction can lower this value.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 04:25:24 PM by voknaar »
 

Offline Thiosk

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Re: What's the interaction between greenhouse and anti-greenhouse?
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2011, 04:47:35 PM »
Yeah, AGG is a little too effective overall methinks-- i brain it as an inert carrier gas and installed solar reflectors and then just ignore it.
 

Offline Ashery (OP)

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Re: What's the interaction between greenhouse and anti-greenhouse?
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2011, 06:11:21 PM »
I was talking about the total pressure of the planet which is what determins the cost as far as pressure goes. If it's outside the Min/Max tollerence then you will have a colony cost of 2.

Edit: Adding 14 ATM of AGG won't lower presure at all. Only subtraction can lower this value.

Err?

The colony cost from pressure, at least for the standard humans, is as follows: Between 1-3x base tolerance (4-12atm for humans) has a cost of 2, while anything above that has a colony cost of (pressure)/(base tolerance).

I'm well aware that adding AGG won't decrease the pressure, but depending on how the modified temperature was calculated, I may have been able to reduce the temperature (Which has a substantially higher value on the planet I'm wanting to build on) more quickly by adding some AGG. My final comment in my previous post was that the pressure *cost* would be 7, ie the total pressure 28.

While playing around in SM mode, I noticed that the greenhouse factor equation doesn't have a lower limit. So not only can you bring the temperature of a planet below absolute zero, but you can continue reducing the temperature indefinitely, heh.
 

Offline voknaar

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Re: What's the interaction between greenhouse and anti-greenhouse?
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2011, 11:26:57 PM »
The colony cost from pressure, at least for the standard humans, is as follows: Between 1-3x base tolerance (4-12ATM for humans) has a cost of 2, while anything above that has a colony cost of (pressure)/(base tolerance).

I'm well aware that adding AGG won't decrease the pressure, but depending on how the modified temperature was calculated, I may have been able to reduce the temperature (Which has a substantially higher value on the planet I'm wanting to build on) more quickly by adding some AGG. My final comment in my previous post was that the pressure *cost* would be 7, IE the total pressure 28.

Are you certain that's how it works for calculating pressure costs, because I was certain that default human values is 1-4 base pressure once over that it is a one to one ratio of ATM to colony costs so a total pressure of 28 would be about colony cost 24. When I get home I'll have to make a test game to check this. But I am certain that I am right though.


Edit: Proved myself massively wrong but tests on Mars showed you needed as much AGG as carbon dioxide to start lowering the greenhouse factor.. But you were right about the pressure. Mathematics isn't my strong subject.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 11:58:33 PM by voknaar »
 

Offline Ashery (OP)

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Re: What's the interaction between greenhouse and anti-greenhouse?
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2011, 03:54:38 PM »
Heh, ended up doing the same thing myself and just fooled around with the numbers in SM mode (That's how I ended up figuring out the exact numbers for pressure costs as I originally thought it was simply pressure/max tolerance. I just happened to have the luxury of being able to double check at the moment of posting).

I'm starting to wonder if I should just go for massed engineers for construction purposes on the planet. I'll likely still have some orbital habitats, but they'll primarily be a vehicle for terraforming modules and their small workforce contribution will just be an added benefit rather than their main purpose.