Author Topic: Are Missiles the Ultimate Meta...  (Read 8794 times)

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Offline xenoscepter

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Re: Are Missiles the Ultimate Meta...
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2019, 08:54:13 AM »
What if we just made the 3HS Gauss Cannon to be 100% Accurate and the 6HS to be 200% Accurate?

After all, Beam FCS imposes a 75% accuracy penalty at just 25% of it's maximum range, so this would balance nicely for both Fighter Beam FCS, which have insane tracking speed, allowing Fighters to mount Gauss at the same tonnage as a railgun but w/o the reactor overhead while the big ships could better take advantage of the fact that railguns cannot be mounted in turrets to capitalize on improved tracking speed, but mounting the big 6HS guns so they can skimp on Beam FCS tonnage with respect to range. Beam FCS range can be set to 25% of the Range for 25% of the weight, while Beam Tracking Speed can only be set to 50% of the tracking speed for 50% of the weight.

This would also allow ships that aren't built for PD to mount some w/o the need for an extra bomb... err... reactor. Useful to missile ships, less so for beam ships which would already have a reactor. Just cap Aurora to 100% accuracy so you don't get weird bugs from negative numbers like the infamous "Nuclear Ghandi" glitch. I believe turret armor weight was fixed in C# as well, making turreted gauss even more attractive since it could have higher HTK along with better tracking speed.
 

Iranon

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Re: Are Missiles the Ultimate Meta...
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2019, 10:07:11 AM »
I also find Gauss weaponry unattractive in most applications. Too high RP requirements for a rather narrow niche. 10cm railguns are generally more cost-effective on slow ships and outright superior on fast ships. Even with heavy focus and ideal application, Gauss usually gets a modest advantage in PD at the cost of being much weaker offensively. Welcome if we stumble across the tech including turrets (Precursors?), but rather poor returns on our own R&D investment.

Having a 3HS Gauss cannon be 100% accurate would make them strictly better than 10cm railguns at medium tech levels, also not good - I prefer if different lines present viable options.
Something interesting would be to only eliminate the one-salvo-per-FC limit for turreted weapons or CIWSs. But while the salvo concept added some interesting considerations, it encouraged a few things that feel a little gamey, I can see why Steve wants to scrap it entirely.
 

Offline Michael Sandy

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Re: Are Missiles the Ultimate Meta...
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2019, 12:43:16 PM »
It really depends on whether you are talking about the AI or players.  And how sleazy you are willing to be.

It is possible to nullify AI enemy missiles completely, IF you know the exact range of their missiles.  And if you want to destroy a fleet that costs ten times as much as yours, you aren't going to be able to do that with missiles.  In one fight, I had two 1,000 ton boats with salvaged beam weaponry and fire controls destroy and disable for boarding approximately 30 times their tonnage.

So it really depends on what challenges you set yourself.

For fighting an equal sized foe in a one-off, especially versus a player, missiles are the most likely to get you victory.  But if you want a truly lopsided victory, against overwhelming AI tonnage, you have to go with beams.
 

Offline xenoscepter

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Re: Are Missiles the Ultimate Meta...
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2019, 02:02:31 PM »
@Iranon

 - It could also be that 3.5HS or 4HS is 100% Accurate, with 5HS being 125% and 6HS being 150% accurate. If 3.5HS is 100% 4HS could be 112% accurate. My pint is more that I think merely tweaking accuracy per HS could fix the problem in VB6.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Are Missiles the Ultimate Meta...
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2019, 03:04:13 PM »
I think there are two problems...

First it is that Gauss is rather expensive to research and that Gauss are not even useful before it can shoot at least four shots.

In order to make Gauss useful I think Gauss should always give 4 shots in the same way that rail-guns do but that they instead get a reduction in weight over time. Combine this with allowing some technology sharing between the two and you might get a good balance between Rail-Guns and Gauss.

I do think that fire-controls should be looked at further to balance the game. there are two things that a fire-control should be limited at more than its range and speed.

A fire-control should have different values for target tracking and weapon control. A single fire-control should have some limitations based on technology in terms of weapons it can control and/or targets it can track and engage.

Two changes like that would reduce the number of loopholes and abuse. You could not fit 20 early tech rail-guns who cost 5 or less BP per gun to a single fire-control.

I think that introducing a "battery" system would be interesting with some rules how different gun systems can be combined and make fire-controls dedicated to batteries.

A missile fire-control would have limitations on missiles fired per turn and number of missiles it can control in total. That would give some limitation and cost to how ships are setup in terms of salvo sizes and total salvo sizes. A really large salvo would need fire-controls specifically designed and if you have a huge number of really small missiles then the fire-controls become quite expensive. It also would be a nudge in favour of larger missiles of higher quality.

On most blue navy ships sensors and fire-controls are the most costly and complicated thing on the ships in conjunction with the computers needed to coordinate it all. I imagine this are still going to be more or less true in the Aurora 4x universe.

I would not want Steve to do anything about this until after C# is released, but having some look into the sensor, fire-control and electronic warfare system would be interesting.
 

Offline Father Tim

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Re: Are Missiles the Ultimate Meta...
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2019, 08:55:40 PM »
I don't think I've ever actually used a 100% Gauss Cannon -- certainly not a turretted one.

I started messing around with GC becasue I was trying to build a '74' and the only way to get seventy-four of any weapon on a ship of reasonable size was to use 17% or smaller GCs.  (This was before 'reduced-size' lasers were added.)

Since I had the GCs, I started experimenting with them.  I rapidly realized 100% GC were a trap, since the 'crew exp' bonus 'to hit' was added to the base chance, rather than multiplied.  So a 100% GC with +10% bonus made one shot at 110%, whereas ten 10% GC made ten shots at 20%.

Massed smaller GCs also lessen the effect of the RNG, as total damage is a bell curve, and "at least X damage (a.k.a. missile kills) per salvo" is much higher.

- - - - -

I would be unhappy with a new 'max weapons per fire control' mechanic, as my 74s will continue to mount seventy-four guns and two fire controls (port and starboard).  But I would treat such a technology the same way I currently treat Fuel Efficiency (since sailing ships don't run out of fuel) -- I would SM increase it to the level necessary for my fiction.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2019, 04:05:04 AM by Father Tim »
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Are Missiles the Ultimate Meta...
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2019, 02:47:34 AM »
I don't think I've ever actually used a 100% Gauss Cannon -- certainly not a turretted one.

I started messing around with GC becasue I was trying to build a '74' and the only way to get seventy-four of any weapon on a ship of reasonable size was to use 17% or smaller GCs.  (This was before 'reduced-size' lasers were added.)

Since I had the GCs, I started expermineting with them.  I rapidly realized 100% GC were a trap, since the 'crew exp' bonus 'to hit' was added to the base chance, rather than multiplied.  So a 100% GC with +10% bonus made one shot at 110%, whereas ten 10% GC made ten shots at 20%.

Massed smaller GCs also lessen the effect of the RNG, as total damage is a bell curve, and "at least X damage (a.k.a. missile kills) per salvo" is much higher.

- - - - -

I would be unhappy with a new 'max weapons per fire control' mechanic, as my 74s will continue to mount seventy-four guns and two fire controls (port and starboard).  But I would treat such a technology the same way I currently treat Fuel Efficiency (since sailing ships don't run out of fuel) -- I would SM increase it to the level necessary for my fiction.

I just tested how the game calculated the to hit chance because that is not how I remembered it working and it is not.

Lets say you have 12% grade bonus...
*'
Let's say 88% base chance to hit with the fire-control this gives a base chance to hit at 112*0.88 at roughly 98% chance to hit.

This is then modified with TRACKING_SPEED/TARGET_SPEED and then modified with the weapon accuracy.

TARGET_SPEED = 32000
TRACKING_SPEED = 20000
WEAPON_ACCURACY = 50%

(112*0.88)*(20000/32000)*0.5 = 30.8  for a 50% Gauss

(112*0.88)*(20000/32000)*1 = 61.6  for a 100% Gauss

It is always better to have a high accuracy low shot weapon than a low accuracy high shot weapon unless the modified to hit are more than 100% which is very rare due to target speeds and fire control to hit ratios.

Imagine it this way... I have 4 shots at 100%... I will always hit 4 times against 4 incoming missiles. If I have 8 shots at 50% there is always a chance I do less than 4 hits, the chance is actually pretty high that I do. But hitting more than 4 times is a waste and do me no good.
They will both hit on average the same number of incoming missiles but only if incoming missiles are 8 or more.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2019, 02:52:32 AM by Jorgen_CAB »
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Are Missiles the Ultimate Meta...
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2019, 07:44:01 AM »
When you say you can use SpaceMaster to alter that game to your liking, does that mean you can give beam weapons unlimited range like they would have in real life in space?
No, that is hardcode and cannot be modified by SM.

It's there for two reasons:
1) if beam weapons could have a longer range than Light Speed * 5 seconds, Aurora would need to show them on the map, in the same vein as missile salvos are. They would also wonkily "follow" target ships if you make them roll for a hit only when they arrive at the target, or they would always miss if the target manages to move at all.

2) Steve wanted there to be a clear difference between missiles and beam weapons, in how they are used, how they affect the battlespace and what effect they have on ships and tactics.

So this is extremely unlikely to change.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Are Missiles the Ultimate Meta...
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2019, 08:53:09 AM »
When you say you can use SpaceMaster to alter that game to your liking, does that mean you can give beam weapons unlimited range like they would have in real life in space?
No, that is hardcode and cannot be modified by SM.

It's there for two reasons:
1) if beam weapons could have a longer range than Light Speed * 5 seconds, Aurora would need to show them on the map, in the same vein as missile salvos are. They would also wonkily "follow" target ships if you make them roll for a hit only when they arrive at the target, or they would always miss if the target manages to move at all.

2) Steve wanted there to be a clear difference between missiles and beam weapons, in how they are used, how they affect the battlespace and what effect they have on ships and tactics.

So this is extremely unlikely to change.

I would also add that weapons in the game probably do have unlimited range, they just can't hit anything at an unlimited range and most beam weapons will have diminished effect at range to the point they do no damage. Kinetic weapons should of course not have diminished damage over range at all but should instead be incredibly short range due to their speed thus reducing accuracy to such a degree they are practically worthless.
 

Offline Desdinova

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Re: Are Missiles the Ultimate Meta...
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2019, 09:41:22 AM »
Energy weapons like lasers would not have unlimited range in real life because the beam disperses at range. A beam a few cm wide at close range would be meters wide at long range, which means destructive power falls off as range increases. You can see this in action with an off-the-shelf laser pointer. haven't done the math but I'm pretty sure Aurora lasers already far exceed the performance of any possible real life lasers in this respect.
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Are Missiles the Ultimate Meta...
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2019, 12:11:10 PM »
And yeah, I also want to echo the others who have said that missiles are not the ultimate weapon that trumps all else. It is very much possible to create Point Defence thick enough that missiles cannot penetrate it in any reasonable scenario. Over in the Ship Bureau, there are designs for the so-called FlaK barges, which are cheap railgun platforms that can be built by the dozens and will. That's just one example. In the Fiction sub-forum, you can find tales of how human PD defeats all incoming NPR missile salvos.

 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Are Missiles the Ultimate Meta...
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2019, 01:17:47 PM »
And yeah, I also want to echo the others who have said that missiles are not the ultimate weapon that trumps all else. It is very much possible to create Point Defence thick enough that missiles cannot penetrate it in any reasonable scenario. Over in the Ship Bureau, there are designs for the so-called FlaK barges, which are cheap railgun platforms that can be built by the dozens and will. That's just one example. In the Fiction sub-forum, you can find tales of how human PD defeats all incoming NPR missile salvos.

Yes, PD are very effective against regular sized missiles fired from normal sized launchers. NPR almost exclusively use that on normal ships and mostly use box launched ones on FAC and fighters only. When you play in games where the designs are created by human hand on both sides it becomes a bit more tricky as you might face a combination of box launches, reduced size launchers and regular launchers so it is harder to tailor the PD to a specific type. In VB6 there also are the issue with fire-controls which can be abused as well.

Now... I don't think that we should encourage highly abusive tactics either. Using 3BP rail-guns as PD are probably as abusive as using fire-controls or different missiles in one fire-control to get multiple salvos from one fire-control. Another way to completely abuse missiles are to create a missile (MIRV) who have the same speed as your ship, collect all missiles in the inventory in one giant salvo, completely horrible abuse of the mechanics. There are also ways you can trick PD firing at armoured missiles before none armoured as there is a strict order missiles are engaged by PD, don't remember exactly what though.
When we look at the balance I think we need to cut the extremes on either side as anomalies as most players probably house rule against most of them anyway.

When you look at roughly same level technology and you don't abuse either beam or missile mechanics then beam weapons can for the most part deal with normal sized launchers quite effectively and will struggle quite severely against box launched or reduced sized launchers. But if you then combine the PD with Shields you can make missiles quite expensive, throw in decent AMM and it is even better, but now you also invested allot into missile defence... in an environment where there is a human designing ships on several sides then designs are usually built and formed along what the enemy has so you can't blindly rely on either missiles or beams as it depends on what the enemy has.

But with that said, missiles are king at deliver high damage from great range.

You can build impenetrable fortresses around a planet with cheap PD but I have never found that to be a sound strategy in my multi-faction campaigns as planets are immobile and there are no real point attacking a planet or colony from long range, most often I don't want to radiate the planet with them either. The best solution is to bring a fleet strong enough to weather any missiles on the colony and destroy it with overwhelming beam weapons and/or bombs. That is why a very strong beam defence is more important on planets and probably even more so in C# I believe, beam defences are allot more costly and those cheap PD stations are pretty much useless in that scenario. In VB6 you start dropping "bombs" at point blank range on PDCs, bombs also are allot cheaper than regular missiles.

This is why I think that the whole discussion about missiles and beams are pointless. Just because missiles in general are king at ranged combat and therefore space superiority does not mean that you don't need beam weapons, you do as missiles can run out... can be costly to replace and upgrade and are not good in all situations.

I just don't understand why it is so hard to accept that missiles are better at some things and beams at others. A fleet that uses a wide variety of weapons and defences also utilise resources and mining production more efficiently, that should not be underestimated. A fleet that is purely focused on missiles will heavily tax an industry in a really bad way as one example, the same with an industry that rely on one type of Beam weapons.

There is nothing wrong with focusing a fleet on one weapon system, especially if it could neutralise an enemies strength a great deal. You also do it for role-play reasons as factions have limited research capacities or just favour a specific system for one or another reasons... perhaps based on previous experiences and so on. I for one try to play all factions somewhat differently and base their wants and needs based on experience and not my knowledge of the gaming system, so they have to learn the hard way.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2019, 02:16:30 PM by Jorgen_CAB »
 

Offline Borealis4x (OP)

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Re: Are Missiles the Ultimate Meta...
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2019, 08:06:35 PM »
So missiles could be best described as artillery in space. Vital to any engagement and devastating when employed correctly but requires other weapons to back it up and can be limited in how much you can use it.
 

Offline Panopticon

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Re: Are Missiles the Ultimate Meta...
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2019, 01:38:42 AM »
Even if you don't use them, missiles are probably the most important weapon in terms of their influence on ship design and tactics, try running an all energy weapon fleet that only assumes it will meet other similarly armed fleets and you are gonna get wrecked. A general knowledge of how missiles work is needed to design appropriate defenses at least.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Are Missiles the Ultimate Meta...
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2019, 01:53:44 AM »
So missiles could be best described as artillery in space. Vital to any engagement and devastating when employed correctly but requires other weapons to back it up and can be limited in how much you can use it.

That is a pretty good and short description of how they work, the emphasis is on limited and costly ammunition. If you can make it cost more than it is worth you can neutralise it.

The thing is that range is also a good defensive posture. If you find the enemy, launch a missile barrage and they easily deflect it you may disengage and save your ships. If on the other hand you are able to overwhelm the enemy defences it is very difficult to outrun missiles in general. The problem with beams is that once you engage it can sometimes be difficult to disengage if things go sideways.

That is why missiles is such a strong tactical tool but strategically quite expensive.

We also have to understand that AI NPR will never change their designs based on a players designs. In C# the AI will at least include more or less escort such a missile defence ships if they are engaged with lots of missiles for example, but they will not match sensors or fire-controls to your designs or their missiles to your main ships speeds or their range to outrange your missiles or anything like that.

I would also recommend to refrain from using the more abusive tactics in terms of game mechanics. Aurora are meant to be more of a role-play oriented game so do whatever feels the most fun. If you want to run with only beam weapons then do so and live the with consequences and drawbacks of that. Or why not a missile crazy species that refuse to touch beam weapons and feel the Tritanium shortages that will follow. It is also fun to Challenge yourself to some degree with none optimal solutions.

I also mostly play my games as each faction are pretty dumb and have to learn from their own mistakes and experiences, that is more fun than exploit the game mechanics or my own knowledge of the gaming systems. Most of the times if I for example play a traditional game I would not even have any military ships until I run into something that might be dangerous. Why would a stellar society that enters into space even create a space military when they don't expect to even find an alien advanced enough to venture to space, that seem a bit like waste of resources. But you can fit the narrative to whatever you wish.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 02:10:06 AM by Jorgen_CAB »