Author Topic: TF assignments  (Read 1827 times)

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Offline Haegan2005 (OP)

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TF assignments
« on: April 20, 2008, 11:41:48 PM »
How do I assign units to a new task force in v3.0? Everything is assigned to the original TF and the new TF has no apparent way to assign new or old units to it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Haegan2005 »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2008, 12:13:42 PM »
You can set the task force on the Fleet window. Its in the upper right box. Beware that swapping task forces will reduce your fleet training points by 50% and then if you swap back it will go down 50% more.

Steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Steve Walmsley »
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: TF assignments
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2009, 12:35:14 PM »
A little light bulb went off in my head while I was typing definitions for "task force" etc. in my recent reply for the sub-pulse thread - what's the game-playing motivation for the 50% loss of training points?  Reading the wikipedia page on "Task force" (to try and remember whether force or group is bigger), it mentions that a task force is a temporary formation, i.e. that it's very much a "mix and match" organization.  The current mechanism where changing Fleets causes a 50% cut in training just doesn't feel right - for one thing, if you change back 5 seconds later (due to an "oops") you instantly have a 25% reduction.  I like the the need for an explicit investment in training, however - early on I tend to do a lot of training, until I hit a fuel shortage and training grinds to a halt.  It seems like TF should be able to accrue training benefits while they're deployed as well.  In addition, the need for a flag bridge means that most of my Aurora-TF actually behave like fleets - some Admiral and his staff are parked at Sol while the ships are 5 systems away.  Finally, once a ship in a TF has gained training points, it never loses them, even if it's tied up at the dock for 5 years.  I think the core issue here is that training tends to be "all or nothing" - if the Admiral doesn't have a training bonus, then no points are accumulated, if the TF isn't "on training mission", then no points are accumulated, etc.  I suspect another core issue is having trouble defining "deployed" ships.  I think that the maintenance rules have set things up so that the deployed definition is easy - a ship is deployed if it's not in orbit (i.e. if it's accruing time on its maintainence clock).  How do following suggestions sound?

1)  Training rots, e.g. set things up so that e.g. 50% of a ship's training points will vanish over the course of a year.  This will force training to be an on-going effort, rather than "train up at the beginning, then let them sit".

2)  There's a spectrum of accrual of training points to offset the rot.  Best is explicit training exercises - they should accrue at e.g. 4x the standard rate.  Next best is "on deployment", which means time not spent in orbit (or maybe not spent in orbit of a maintenance facility).  The base "on deployment" accrual should probably be equal to the rot rate when the training level is 50%, to indicate that coordination gets better as the deployment progresses, until it saturates at a steady-state value (50%). Next best is "in orbit" - this should probably offset the rot-rate at e.g. a 25% level.  Worst should be "in overhaul or refit", which should not accrue training points at all (so rot takes over).  The various rates should be balanced so that a 1/3 deployed, 1/3 overhaul, 1/3 working up cycle  results in an equilibrium training level of about 50.

3)  Admirals, staffs, and flag bridges should make accrual more efficient, as opposed to "all or nothing" - let me call Admiral+staff "TF commander"

    A TF commander in another system shouldn't contribute at all.

    A TF commander on a ship without a flag bridge should contribute at a reduced rate (e.g. 25%) - the reduction needs to be pretty severe in order to make flag bridges pay off.  The other option is that any TF without a flag bridge has a severe penalty (e.g. 25% or 50%) to the "effective" training points of all ships, e.g. a ship with a training rating of 96 would be treated as only having a rating of 24 (even though the ship's actual rating would still be 96) - I think I like this second one better.

    A TF commander on a ship with a flag bridge is the best at providing training bonus.

One glitch that I've found is that it's impossible to move TF commands between worlds if you don't have any flag bridges in your navy.  It seems like an admiral should be able to embark on a ship without a flag bridge; it should just impair his command efficiency.

4)  Ships don't lose training points by transferring between TF - instead training points are lost through rot.  This is basically an "avoid micromanagement" suggestion - since it's too hard to track when TF organization changes then changes back (e.g. should all ships in a TF lose 50% when the admiral changes?), simply forget about trying to track it and assume that ships will tend to stay in the same TF anyway in the course of a deployment.  The reason this change is important is that I find the existing behavior pushes me in the direction of treating Aurora TF more like USN fleets than like USN TF - I suspect others feel the same pressure.

5)  If there's no Admiral+Staff assigned, then the senior officer among the ship commanders becomes the TF commander.  This is again intended to push TF in the "mix and match" direction - if you're sending a detachment into a system, make an ad hoc TF and assign the ships to it (without paying the 50% penalty) for the time that they're in the system.

So I guess there are three core ideas here:

1)  How well a ship works within a TF doesn't depend on which TF it's in (hmmmm maybe the TF training rate should have multipliers based on a log scale of how many ships are in the TF during training, e.g. 1-4 at 0.5X, 5-8 at 1X, 9-16 at 2X, etc.).

2)  The base training rate of a ship is modified by whether or not there's a Flag bridge in the TF and in-system, and possibly whether there's an actual TF commander present, and possibly by the TF commander's command rating (e.g. 0.5X penalty for no flag bridge, 0.5X penalty for no explicit commander present, i.e. TF commander is senior ship commander, +TF commander's bonus as modifiers)

3)  TF training rating is always gaining due to what the ship is doing and losing due to rot.

John
 

Offline schroeam

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Re: TF assignments
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2009, 05:49:22 PM »
IIRC, a big part of the training was in dealing with task group operations and how well the ships performed during fleet operations (maintaining formations, firing initiatives, responding to orders, etc.)  The deduction when shifting Task Forces (the big admin structure utilizing admirals and staff officers) was basically that the ships needed to train up in their coordination for working together.  If you create a new Task Group within the same Task Force, (Task Group = Ad-Hoc command struture where senior CO is TG commander) the training points don't change due to the fact that the ships are still part of the same TF and they still operate within the same overall guidelines established by the TF Admiral.  I agree that there may be some need to address the percentage drop, and that if a Task Group does not train for several years their training percentange should drop, but on the other hand if a fleet of ships continuously trains together to achieve the >90% training value that means that they are very proficient at working together.  If they are split up to different Task Forces then they will need to train with the new ships to reflect the different tactics and philosophy of their new TF Admiral.  

Something else to consider is the rotation of ship captains and it's affect on crew training as well as relief of TF Admiral and select staff positions (ops, comms, logistics, intel, and fighter ops if applicable).

I also agree with the effect of where the TF commander is with relation to the TG and whether the TG is underway, in orbit around a fleet base, or in the shipyards.  

Something that just came to mind.  How about an order in the TG screen for a ship to picket a jp, planet, moon, whatever, that would automatically change the ship's speed to 1 to reduce it's thermal signature?  It seems there is quite a call for pickets and something that common should have a general order for it.

Thanks,

Adam.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: TF assignments
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2009, 11:28:00 PM »
Quote from: "sloanjh"
So I guess there are three core ideas here:

1)  How well a ship works within a TF doesn't depend on which TF it's in (hmmmm maybe the TF training rate should have multipliers based on a log scale of how many ships are in the TF during training, e.g. 1-4 at 0.5X, 5-8 at 1X, 9-16 at 2X, etc.).
I have to disagree with this one :). The TF training modifier reflects the ability of a ship and crew to work within a particular task force. As an anology, assume you are a decent C++ programmer and start work for Xerox. Your C++ skills (your crew grade) will not change because you started working for Xerox but you will have to start learning how to work within that company's organization and with other employees (your TF Training points). After a few years, you leave and start work for ICL. Your C++ skills (crew grade) will be unaffected by the move to a new company. However, a lot of what you learned about working well within the Xerox organization and with the other employees of Xerox (TF training) will be totally useless to you at ICL. You can perhaps retain some useful things, such as the concept of a structured design methodology and some interpersonal skills, but now you have to learn to adapt to a different methodology and different people, not to mention different organizations, values and ways of doing things. In the same way, the TF Training Points in Aurora reflect your ability to work within a particular organization rather than the ability to fit in into any organization. I agree that the reduction could perhaps be a little less but it could also be argued that changing the TF commander should lower the TF training of every ship in the TF as well so it's swings and roundabouts.

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2)  The base training rate of a ship is modified by whether or not there's a Flag bridge in the TF and in-system, and possibly whether there's an actual TF commander present, and possibly by the TF commander's command rating (e.g. 0.5X penalty for no flag bridge, 0.5X penalty for no explicit commander present, i.e. TF commander is senior ship commander, +TF commander's bonus as modifiers)
At the moment, the TF bonuses only apply if the TF commander is in the same system and either on a planet or in a flag bridge. I don't think I want to make it any more complex than that. However, I can understand why you would want the ability to transport the TF staff on a ship without a flag bridge if one isn't handy so I will look at that.

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3)  TF training rating is always gaining due to what the ship is doing and losing due to rot.
I like the concept that the TF training rate should drop over time. I also like the suggestion that it would drop less if the fleet wasn't sat in port and that it would move toward 50% during active operations (from either direction). On the downside, keeping ships trained up would use up a lot of fuel so that may be unbalancing to the status quo. My other concern is the micromanagement aspect. At the moment, you have to get new ships training up, which is a task to consider but a finite one. If you have to keep on eye on all the TF training for all warships on an ongoing basis, it might reach a point where the gameplay benefit was outweighed by the micromanagement. I'll have to give the whole thing some thought.

Steve
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: TF assignments
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2009, 11:29:23 PM »
Quote from: "adradjool"
Something that just came to mind.  How about an order in the TG screen for a ship to picket a jp, planet, moon, whatever, that would automatically change the ship's speed to 1 to reduce it's thermal signature?  It seems there is quite a call for pickets and something that common should have a general order for it.
Yes, that's a good idea. I'll try to add that for v4.1

Steve
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: TF assignments
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2009, 12:31:26 AM »
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "sloanjh"
So I guess there are three core ideas here:

1)  How well a ship works within a TF doesn't depend on which TF it's in (hmmmm maybe the TF training rate should have multipliers based on a log scale of how many ships are in the TF during training, e.g. 1-4 at 0.5X, 5-8 at 1X, 9-16 at 2X, etc.).
I have to disagree with this one :-) :-)  The issue that I'm trying to raise is that the current system doesn't lead me to train my units together because (I think) of the following reasons:

1)  High cost (mostly fuel; partially maint) of training
2)  High cost (both research and space) of flag bridge.
3)  Big penalty to switch, which means that all that investment from #1 is lost if you send e.g. a destroyer on TDY for a few days.  

My suggestion was a "gameplay over realism" idea.  How about this for a different idea - keep multiple training numbers per ship in the DB, so that you don't lose 50% of your training when you switch - you lose 100%!!  The difference is that, if you switch back, your training magically goes back up.  This was the main thing the suggestion was intended to try to fix - the risk associated with doing a lot of training in one TF and then losing it when switching.

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2)  The base training rate of a ship is modified by whether or not there's a Flag bridge in the TF and in-system, and possibly whether there's an actual TF commander present, and possibly by the TF commander's command rating (e.g. 0.5X penalty for no flag bridge, 0.5X penalty for no explicit commander present, i.e. TF commander is senior ship commander, +TF commander's bonus as modifiers)
At the moment, the TF bonuses only apply if the TF commander is in the same system and either on a planet or in a flag bridge. I don't think I want to make it any more complex than that. However, I can understand why you would want the ability to transport the TF staff on a ship without a flag bridge if one isn't handy so I will look at that.

Quote
3)  TF training rating is always gaining due to what the ship is doing and losing due to rot.
I like the concept that the TF training rate should drop over time. I also like the suggestion that it would drop less if the fleet wasn't sat in port and that it would move toward 50% during active operations (from either direction). On the downside, keeping ships trained up would use up a lot of fuel so that may be unbalancing to the status quo. My other concern is the micromanagement aspect. At the moment, you have to get new ships training up, which is a task to consider but a finite one. If you have to keep on eye on all the TF training for all warships on an ongoing basis, it might reach a point where the gameplay benefit was outweighed by the micromanagement. I'll have to give the whole thing some thought.

This (less micromanagement) is actually what I was going for.  My thought was "the way to get TF training up is to put good officers in charge of large TF that are deployed".  In other words, the (expensive) "working up time" is intended to get ships trained up quickly at the start of a deployment - even if a ship doesn't work up it should still have its training numbers increase as a result of working with the other ships in the group.  I actually find the current training mechanism to involve a lot of micromanagement, since I'm constantly having to look at fuel levels and cycle the ships through overhaul.

John