Aurora 4x

VB6 Aurora => Aurora Suggestions => Topic started by: Father Tim on November 11, 2017, 11:37:13 PM

Title: Bringing Back Mothballing
Post by: Father Tim on November 11, 2017, 11:37:13 PM
I liked mothballing, I do miss it, but I can continue to live without it if it proves to be too much trouble to code.
Title: Re: Bringing Back Mothballing
Post by: QuakeIV on November 12, 2017, 03:48:36 AM
Doesnt the new version already have stuff like this?
Title: Re: Bringing Back Mothballing
Post by: El Pip on November 12, 2017, 11:11:46 AM
Is it being greedy to say I'd like Option 2 and 3 from that list?

Option 2 would be "Send to the Reserve Fleet" (or Standby Squadron, or whatever name you want to give it), ships are decommissioned but still looked after and kept ready to bring back into active service at, say, 1 months notice.

Option 3 is proper Mothballing, sensitive kit taken out so it won't be damaged, filled with foam, airlocks sealed and then left in a stable orbit.

If I had to pick I'd go with Option 2 as I would probably use that more.
Title: Re: Bringing Back Mothballing
Post by: alex_brunius on November 13, 2017, 03:19:46 AM
Both options would be nice to have ( reserve for quick activation and mothball for long ).

But reactivating from mothball should also cost a bit of resources, wealth or supply I think so it's an important decision that can't be done "for free" but there is a tradeoff cost.
Title: Re: Bringing Back Mothballing
Post by: Hazard on November 13, 2017, 04:30:42 AM
Maintaining ships in mothball or reserve should still eat TN materials. At a lower rate than combat ready maintenance, sure, but it would still require materials.
Title: Re: Bringing Back Mothballing
Post by: Seolferwulf on November 13, 2017, 06:07:22 AM
What the heck is mothballing?
I've done a quick search but Google had no satisfactory answer.
Title: Re: Bringing Back Mothballing
Post by: alex_brunius on November 13, 2017, 06:20:40 AM
What the heck is mothballing?
I've done a quick search but Google had no satisfactory answer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mothballing

( Aircraft boneyard and Reserve fleet are relevant entries to this use of the word ).
Title: Re: Bringing Back Mothballing
Post by: Garfunkel on November 14, 2017, 09:14:23 AM
Yeah, having both 2 and 3 would be cool.
Title: Re: Bringing Back Mothballing
Post by: 83athom on November 14, 2017, 12:36:04 PM
The junkyard from Expansion Wars comes to mind where there are literally hundreds of centuries old ships sitting in lunar orbit sitting in mothball.
Title: Re: Bringing Back Mothballing
Post by: obsidian_green on December 03, 2017, 03:45:25 PM
I'll go with option 1.

Ship made of sci-fi materials is parked in a vacuum, not sitting in saltwater or oxidizing in air. Turning it back on is nothing more than pumping air back into it, provisioning it, and crewing it. We're talking about flicking on a light switch. I'm not a big fan TN material evaporation either. If I'm not using a ship, it shouldn't be eating TN minerals to "maintain" it (but should if I am using it, which is why I don't just turn off maintenance---I'll miss the massive PDC hangars). I don't know if hangars  in C# Aurora still protect from TN evaporation, but if they do I guess I'll be building space docks, which will be fun.
Title: Re: Bringing Back Mothballing
Post by: iceball3 on December 03, 2017, 07:14:15 PM
I'll go with option 1.

Ship made of sci-fi materials is parked in a vacuum, not sitting in saltwater or oxidizing in air. Turning it back on is nothing more than pumping air back into it, provisioning it, and crewing it. We're talking about flicking on a light switch. I'm not a big fan TN material evaporation either. If I'm not using a ship, it shouldn't be eating TN minerals to "maintain" it (but should if I am using it, which is why I don't just turn off maintenance---I'll miss the massive PDC hangars). I don't know if hangars  in C# Aurora still protect from TN evaporation, but if they do I guess I'll be building space docks, which will be fun.
They'll require a continuous flow of maintenance supplies, which essentially evaporates TN materials.
Title: Re: Bringing Back Mothballing
Post by: Hazard on December 03, 2017, 07:23:16 PM
Actually, even just leaving a ship in vacuum for, say, a decade or two, causes issues. The specifics are beyond me, but between the cosmic radiation, micrometeor bombardment and quantum shenanigans an otherwise perfectly functional ship can become distressingly non functional. Even in a vacuum.
Title: Re: Bringing Back Mothballing
Post by: vorpal+5 on December 04, 2017, 01:23:25 AM
A lot of internal components are probably not that resistant to near absolute zero... So yes, upkeep! If only for game balance.
Title: Re: Bringing Back Mothballing
Post by: obsidian_green on December 04, 2017, 08:28:54 PM
Folks, if the argument is "game balance" I understand if I don't agree, but the Voyager probes are still working after forty years. They recently test-fired some thrusters that haven't been used since 1980 on one of them.

TN material evaporation takes place at the rate of tons per year for ships made of SF materials that allow them to stay intact when nuked or lased ... and this happens when they are simply parked in a vacuum. I think I lose more TN minerals having them parked than I do by their using maintenance supplies when deployed.
Title: Re: Bringing Back Mothballing
Post by: TheDeadlyShoe on December 05, 2017, 10:59:51 AM
You could just as easily argue that maintenance costs should be eliminated completely with that example.

MSP and maintenance costs are not the same thing.  Maintenance only applies to your maintenance clock.  You lose all the minerals you 'saved' by being deployed if and when you rewind your maintenance clock.  MSP only serves to stave off breakdowns and conduct repairs.  You could never pay maintenance at all if you build ships with sufficiently long lifetimes and retire them rather then overhaul them.

One way to mothball currently is to retrofit a lot of engineering spaces onto a design and then just sit it in orbit somewhere without maintenance facilities. It will decay only slowly. 
Title: Re: Bringing Back Mothballing
Post by: TCD on December 05, 2017, 11:48:27 AM
Folks, if the argument is "game balance" I understand if I don't agree, but the Voyager probes are still working after forty years. They recently test-fired some thrusters that haven't been used since 1980 on one of them.

TN material evaporation takes place at the rate of tons per year for ships made of SF materials that allow them to stay intact when nuked or lased ... and this happens when they are simply parked in a vacuum. I think I lose more TN minerals having them parked than I do by their using maintenance supplies when deployed.
Is there any reason for us to think TN materials are stable? Maybe TN-space is actually highly corrosive to TN materials, and ship maintenance is more about fighting an endless battle against the TN winds wearing down the hull, and against the TN corrosium particles that accumulate in the fuel tanks? Maybe TN materials are mildly radioactive and all decay to Duranium over time.
Title: Re: Bringing Back Mothballing
Post by: MagusXIX on December 05, 2017, 03:44:15 PM
One way to mothball currently is to retrofit a lot of engineering spaces onto a design and then just sit it in orbit somewhere without maintenance facilities. It will decay only slowly.

sensibleChuckle.gif

In most cases, this method would mean that a 'mothballed' ship requires *more* personnel than an active-duty one.
Title: Re: Bringing Back Mothballing
Post by: obsidian_green on December 05, 2017, 09:12:16 PM
You could just as easily argue that maintenance costs should be eliminated completely with that example.

I think TN mineral evaporation should be eliminated if my ships are parked over a world with sufficient maintenance facilities, but I want maintenance clocks for operating ships. As it now stands, I use huge hangars to prevent TN evaporation (which is fun, don't mind the capital investment at all) with the added side benefit of automatic overhauls (that still use TN minerals, which I want---really just saves a lot of clicking on the shipyard tab that I might otherwise forget). Role-play-wise, we can assume maintenance facilities allow for the recycling of TN minerals that can't take place on a deployed warship (since none of this matters for commercial vessels).

MSP and maintenance costs are not the same thing.  Maintenance only applies to your maintenance clock.  You lose all the minerals you 'saved' by being deployed if and when you rewind your maintenance clock.  MSP only serves to stave off breakdowns and conduct repairs.  You could never pay maintenance at all if you build ships with sufficiently long lifetimes and retire them rather then overhaul them.

I still use minerals to build maintenance supplies, but you're almost certainly right that I'm not getting the "savings" I thought I was. That's not what I want, however; I just want parked ships (ships in orbit of worlds with sufficient maintenance facilities simulates this) to stop eating thousands of tons of minerals. Really, I'm fine with how it currently works because I can build PDC hangars (hopefully space docks in the PDC-free future) to get the effect I'm looking for, while others can skip it.
Title: Re: Bringing Back Mothballing
Post by: sloanjh on December 06, 2017, 07:22:29 AM
I think TN mineral evaporation should be eliminated if [SNIP]

It sounds like there's an idea going around that the TN minerals are mysteriously vanishing.  My recollection is that this mechanism was put in to abstract away having to cycle active ships in and out of overhaul if they were in orbit around a location that could do overhauls.  So the TN minerals aren't "actually" evaporating - they're simply feeding an abstract process that uses them to produce parts that are used to counteract the general wear and tear that's represented by advancing the maintenance clock (by freezing the clock).

So there's no need here to infer weird TN physics/properties.

John
Title: Re: Bringing Back Mothballing
Post by: obsidian_green on December 07, 2017, 01:31:03 AM
So the TN minerals aren't "actually" evaporating - they're simply feeding an abstract process that uses them to produce parts that are used to counteract the general wear and tear that's represented by advancing the maintenance clock (by freezing the clock).

And my point is that a ship parked in orbit with a standby crew isn't/shouldn't be wearing out parts when the ship isn't doing anything except sitting in a vacuum. Really, what "wear and tear" are we talking about? The Voyager probes are still in great shape, but a super fancy SF space ship that stays intact when hit by nuclear warheads needs hundreds of tons to maintain itself while it does nothing? Thermal expansion, micrometeorite impacts, and cosmic rays just don't seem like they should be as corrosive as the game implies. As it now stands, the double-cost of repairing a component knocked out in combat seems less than the cost of a ship simply orbiting the friendly environs of its own port.

I want the maintenance clock running when the ship is actually doing something or when it's on station (I count that as doing something and it's why I make a distinction between worlds with maintenance facilities and those without). I don't see the logic of why the clock would be running when the ship is simply parked---I'd be paying the crew and provisioning them of course, but its super-spatial minerals that are being devoured, not food or money. "Evaporation" is just my derisive way of putting it.  :)
Title: Re: Bringing Back Mothballing
Post by: TheDeadlyShoe on December 07, 2017, 12:34:23 PM
high energy systems, tanks of chemicals, thousands of nuclear warheads....   just turn maintenance off if it bothers you...  the entire system is designed to be a mineral guzzler
Title: Re: Bringing Back Mothballing
Post by: Whitecold on December 09, 2017, 05:33:22 AM
high energy systems, tanks of chemicals, thousands of nuclear warheads....   just turn maintenance off if it bothers you...  the entire system is designed to be a mineral guzzler
I see a nuance here. I like the part of maintenance as in allocating engineering spaces to ships, and having to keep track of their deployment times. What I don't like is the amount of minerals this evaporates.You should be able to recycle your defective equipment for raw resources, and while this can be expensive, it would absolutely be worthwhile if you run out of a mineral.
Title: Re: Bringing Back Mothballing
Post by: sloanjh on December 09, 2017, 08:53:36 AM
And my point is that a ship parked in orbit with a standby crew isn't/shouldn't be wearing out parts when the ship isn't doing anything except sitting in a vacuum.  [SNIP] "Evaporation" is just my derisive way of putting it.  :)

Thanks for the clarification.  I was trying to make sure that everyone was aware that "evaporation" was being used as a derisive term for an abstraction of the overhaul process on ships that are not mothballed, rather than a "physical" effect that is part of current game mechanics for mothballed ships.  My point was that the latter (a physical effect) cannot be the case because mothballing was removed from Aurora years ago (hence the "bring back" in the title of the thread).  I had seen at least one post where people were trying to ascribe weird evaporative properties to TN materials because of what I perceived as a misunderstanding of the usage of evaporation.

I'm not advocating one way or another as to whether Steve should or should not bring back mothballing; from my point of view the logic rationale (that you're espousing) makes sense, so it's a question of the feature's effect on gameplay (including micromanagement issues), coding effort on the part of Steve, and how much Steve cares about doing it.  What I was trying to head off is a spurious argument about TN properties based on a misunderstanding of the current maintenance mechanisms.

Thanks,
John

PS - Because of the potential for confusion and misunderstanding on the part of people not familiar with the nuances of this discussion (which I think has already happened), I would also be happier if people stopped using this term to describe the current mechanics, or at least say something like "the evaporation abstraction" when describing the current mechanism.  Maybe "consumption" instead of "evaporation"?




Title: Re: Bringing Back Mothballing
Post by: TheDeadlyShoe on December 09, 2017, 02:09:55 PM
I see a nuance here. I like the part of maintenance as in allocating engineering spaces to ships, and having to keep track of their deployment times. What I don't like is the amount of minerals this evaporates.You should be able to recycle your defective equipment for raw resources, and while this can be expensive, it would absolutely be worthwhile if you run out of a mineral.
Right. Just turn maintenance off but still include lots of engineering spaces.  Plus side: no more component repair events to stop your turns.
Title: Re: Bringing Back Mothballing
Post by: obsidian_green on December 09, 2017, 11:43:52 PM
PS - Because of the potential for confusion and misunderstanding on the part of people not familiar with the nuances of this discussion (which I think has already happened), I would also be happier if people stopped using this term to describe the current mechanics, or at least say something like "the evaporation abstraction" when describing the current mechanism.  Maybe "consumption" instead of "evaporation"?

Very fair and very considerate, so I'll give up my witty (well, I thought so anyway, lol) term if I continue with the discussion, but I've probably already said my piece and you've cleared up any misunderstanding for which I might be responsible.
Title: Re: Bringing Back Mothballing
Post by: Lamandier on January 22, 2018, 03:04:08 PM
Sorry to dig up an old(ish) thread but I was wondering whether or not there's a definitive answer to the question of whether mothballing will be making a comeback. Forum search turns up a debate or two like the one in this thread, but no conclusive yes or no that I can find.

I'm all in favor of it; it's a feature I've wanted for a long time, in fact. I voted for option 2 in the poll though I wouldn't complain about Option 3 either.
Title: Re: Bringing Back Mothballing
Post by: Steve Walmsley on January 22, 2018, 06:01:31 PM
Sorry to dig up an old(ish) thread but I was wondering whether or not there's a definitive answer to the question of whether mothballing will be making a comeback. Forum search turns up a debate or two like the one in this thread, but no conclusive yes or no that I can find.

I'm all in favor of it; it's a feature I've wanted for a long time, in fact. I voted for option 2 in the poll though I wouldn't complain about Option 3 either.

You can create a mothballing effect with the new maintenance system in C# Aurora.

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg101959#msg101959

The key quote is:

7)   Ships can enter overhaul in the same way as they do now, except they can also do this at a deep space Maintenance Location as well as at a population. Overhauls will proceed at a slower rate (and use fewer MSP) if the total tonnage of the ships being maintained exceeds the Total Maintenance Capacity. However, ships undergoing overhaul will not suffer maintenance failures in this situation.

In other words, by having a lot of tonnage and minimal maintenance facilities you can create a situation where the ship remains in permanent state of overhaul and incurs no maintenance failures, while using far less MSP than even normal operations. However, the clock will advance (based on the effective maintenance rate) so if you want to use the ship in the future you would either have to speed up the overhaul, or abandon early and accept higher failures rate. So available quickly, but with problems, or slower with full preparation. Or you can eventually scrap with no issues.  You can control just how deep in 'mothballs' you want the ships by adjusting the balance between tonnage and maintenance facilities.
Title: Re: Bringing Back Mothballing
Post by: Whitecold on January 24, 2018, 04:07:13 PM
In other words, by having a lot of tonnage and minimal maintenance facilities you can create a situation where the ship remains in permanent state of overhaul and incurs no maintenance failures, while using far less MSP than even normal operations. However, the clock will advance (based on the effective maintenance rate) so if you want to use the ship in the future you would either have to speed up the overhaul, or abandon early and accept higher failures rate. So available quickly, but with problems, or slower with full preparation. Or you can eventually scrap with no issues.  You can control just how deep in 'mothballs' you want the ships by adjusting the balance between tonnage and maintenance facilities.
Can we get a slider with which we can adjust which ship gets how much maintenance, or how to starve ships deliberately of maintenance, without having to move maintenance facilities? I might want to get a single ship out while leaving the others in mothballs, or have enough maintenance facilities around to pull all ships out of mothballs in an emergency, while not actually using those.