Poll: Favoured technology for beam point defence.

[amimai]

100 amm even fast ones can be beaten by 30-40 quad gauss turrets
with 1 per 5-8kt of fleet tonnage such PD can be mounted on 200kt fleet

true, but what about the enemy 200kt fleet that has 50% missile ships(20%LRmsl 20%AMM 10%mag 25%eng 25%misc)?

that works out to 96 size 1 AMM and 72 size 6 LRM or 240 size 1 AMM per volley.   .   .   
and your quad Gauss are probably taking up 1/5th of your hull space that could be used for things that actually shoot enemy boats 

Ive always found what a 30hs Gauss battery can do a 10xAMM battery with a 300 round magazine can do better
at least until you start meeting 100000km/s++ missiles, at that point its a game of "who has the bigger coiler" and my laser fighters start paying dividends since they can hand out 1. 4m km from the main group and shred anything that crosses their 2. 8m km range diameter

[Vandermeer]

To add to that: You only need a 30kt specialized amm or mini-asm ship to come up with said 100 salvo and still have around double the magazine endurance of classical missile ships. If the enemy wants to spend 200kt fleet to counter that, please, I have Admiral posts who get paid in shiny medals for luring enemies into crippling military spending like this.

In the case of 100 amms, you are better of investing in a 6k shield vehicle for 100 regeneration total immunity (requiring, depending on tech, 30-75kt mission tonnage usually), which would still not be effective, but surely better than a pd fleet here. PD's job is to counter 'legitimate' missiles, and they are great with that, but clouds of tiny meteors require tanking, or simply outgunning.(or praying)

[sneer]

You have really never met really nasty spoilers ....
I witnessed 10k+ od amm missiles shot at me
what kind of amm ship can help you survive anything like this
only size + shields + PD can do this
 

[Vandermeer]

That is what was meant, nothing survives size-1 missile weaponry when done seriously. Just theoretically speaking, if you have a certain target of a certain predicted firing volume, like those 100 amm (could be pdc fortification you want to get through), then probably shields or armor (for normal sized ships) are your best investment. Still bad, but better than PD, so the best amongst losers.

Only other option is to trick the ai into wasting its amm on worthless targets or ones it cannot hit, but that is cheap.

[amimai]

  100 AMM at later tech levels is a 400-900 damage instadeath volley

[sneer]

the only thing in your arsenal helping you vs amm is reasonable amount of gauss turrets
either you have or you are dead
but you also need good shields tech and deep armor on relatively big ships
AI tend to underestimate amount of salvos needed to kill

nevertheless I survvived with most of my TF such situation twice
having many ships damaged and 1-2 crippled
with amm focus it would be impossible

[amimai]

but where do you even fit the guns on your ship if you use gauss turrets big enough to shut down AMS barrages?

its not that I am against Gauss as an AMS system, Gauss are great AMS guns, but they are ONLY AMS guns.

if for your theoretical 10kt of ship you are putting a decent quad Gauss and Targeting system that's 10-15% of the HS down the drain that could be loaded with things that would actually be useful in a fight down the drain, thats my main issue with using gauss.

is you are using less then 10%, its not nearly effective enough to stop anything at all until the later tech levels

[alex_brunius]

if for your theoretical 10kt of ship you are putting a decent quad Gauss and Targeting system that's 10-15% of the HS down the drain that could be loaded with things that would actually be useful in a fight down the drain, thats my main issue with using gauss.

is you are using less then 10%, its not nearly effective enough to stop anything at all until the later tech levels

That is a very.... aggressive   design philosophy you have there 

Do you also consider all other defensive measures like Shields and armor to be "hullsize down the drain"??

Yes AMMs and Laser PD for example can be a bit more dual-purpose and have decent uses against close range enemies too, but much less so then a dedicated anti-ship system that don't have excessive fire-controls, targeting speeds, over-specced sensors to detect size 1 targets and so on...


Myself I like using alot of my HS for defensive systems even if it means a big logistical strain to carry around. Since in my experience when going up against an enemy of similar capabilities it often means the difference between a badly mauled/blown up fleet and an untouched fleet.


In my experience relying on AMMs only is to unreliable early game and to expensive logistics and Industry wise lategame.

[sneer]

I have posted design and philosophy in ship design thread - "joining the big leagues" also in aurora chat " battlefiled thread" there is small coverage of operation vs spoilers with weaponery total data
I dont want to spam thread with my ships  design details
with very heavy and dense missile salvo + good speed my designs need to survive long enough to deliver a blow to enemy so I try to have defensive abilities as high as possible
and amm spam is often enough to think about as a normal combat situation

for fortification amm breaking ..... prepare civilian ship - 20 layers of armor - throw 50 ciws on top - let them shoot - build another magnet after battle
cheap and effective but needs some precise calculation in tactical use

[amimai]

That is a very.  .  .  .   aggressive   design philosophy you have there 

Do you also consider all other defensive measures like Shields and armor to be "hullsize down the drain"??

I dont understand the question, how can you not enjoy more Dakka

Code: [Select]

Lotsa Dakka Battlekroozer class Cruiser    49,550 tons     936 Crew     12501.2001 BP      TCS 991  TH 422.4  EM 4500
2663 km/s     Armour 10-120     Shields 150-300     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 100     PPV 420
Maint Life 7.48 Years     MSP 15768    AFR 196%    IFR 2.7%    1YR 495    5YR 7425    Max Repair 1400 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Spare Berths 3   
Magazine 2800   

880 EP Magneto-plasma Drive (3)    Power 880    Fuel Use 31.73%    Signature 140.8    Exp 11%
Fuel Capacity 1,000,000 Litres    Range 11.4 billion km   (49 days at full power)
Epsilon Heavy Shields (50)   Total Fuel Cost  750 Litres per hour  (18,000 per day)

Size 4 More Dakka (700)    Missile Size 4    Hangar Reload 30 minutes    MF Reload 5 hours
Dakka Targeter (1)     Range 588.0m km    Resolution 1

Dakka Spotter (1)     GPS 7000     Range 438.3m km    Resolution 5

ECCM-3 (1)         ECM 30
but in all seriousness, outside of RP reasons and personal rules I dont use gauss early, even if you win the missile->empty magazine phase by taking out maybe 1-2 more missiles per wave then my laser armed Beamhound AMS fighters, they would would mince you in short order from well outside your gauss firing range ( 1 hanger bay for 2 heavy fighters costs the same as a gauss gun space wise)

at magneto-plasma (which is my favorite era to play around in) a 20hs quad gauss defense system will at most kill 5 unarmored missiles, while for 20hs I can have 7 size 4's or sandblast you with 14 size 1's for 10 volleys

[sneer]

the bigger the military ships go through the game the less specialized I try to do them
I lost battle recently only because AI targeted most important ships 1st ,bad luck -1 fleet
but it was 1st generation with relatively small hulls so it was heavily specialized
once I cross 15-20kt with level 3-4 techs I start to build a round up ships
so loosing 1-2 of 10 does not break my ablilities
and yes - box  launchers are basis of my offensive doctrine as well
however 1 FC per 700 missiles seems too few
and range is awful - looks like colony planetary defence gunboat

p.s. gauss PD is 17% size on last design
p.p.s. like it was stated earlier in this thread the more advanced gauss the more it shines vs everything else

[Iranon]

There is no adequate defence against small missile spam.

One 4x-tracking Gauss barrel weighs in at around 8HS. Even in the best possible case with maxed-out rate of fire and no misses... it hardly matters if we shoot down 6 out of 53 incoming missiles (that's how many size-1 box launchers we can fit on equal tonnage. It gets worse when we take into account fire control and crew requirements).

Beam PD isn't enough. Ton for ton, shields and armour aren't either. AMMs don't work as we'd need to expend several times as much ordnance and still take damage, we'd be better off using AMMs offensively. The only thing that helps is an alpha strike with our own missiles that are too small to be worth intercepting.

*

However, the strategy that's uncounterable in equal-resource duels may be terrible in many realistic situations. Most engagements are asymmetrical, economy and logistics matter. If beams can handle realistic threats cleanly, they have a major advantage over missiles.

[sneer]

amm defence works only as long as you have magazines full
amm vs amm is not good or efficient idea as well

[amimai]

Ive worked it out, the best AMS system vs AMM swarms is (drumroll PLEASE!): Shields (surprise )

how I got to this conclusion (my math may be wrong a bit but meh)->

Gauss:
,75 HS Gauss is 8 shots at 12,5% = 1hit -> in a max speed turret (100km/s) its 4,08 HS for 4 hits
since a missile travels at 290km that's a 1/3 hit chance  +100% tracking time bonus -> 1/1,5
1/1,5 * 4 = 2,6 potential missile kills
2,6 * 9(damage per missile) = 23. 4 damage avoided
23. 4 / 4 = 5,8 damage avoidance per HS

shields (once charged) have 10hp per HS ditto

*this assumes that the enemy is lobbing all their LR AMMS at you in single slow reloading volleys
*in case where enemy is using real missiles - other rules apply
*in case where enemy is lobbing a continuous stream of missile fire 1hs point defense per 1-3 shields is your best

TL|DR : shield are your friend

[83athom]

I voted in the "None. Missiles or RAMMING SPEED." category, and while yes that is my main way of missile defense (shields are a part of this), I also use gauss cannons a lot. While most of you are using specialized smaller craft to counter missiles, those of us who use the larger craft are not so limited with our options. My standard cruiser is in the 100kt to 200kt range. That allows me to put a lot of defensive systems on it to block most of the damage. I can have many  small defensive weaponry as well as a lot of armor and shield all to increase survivability against those ASM/AMM spams. And once you have fleets that have a dozen or so of ships around that size (and role), very little of what your defending against can actually harm you.