Joining the big leagues

[AL (OP)]

Good point on it being mission-killed, I hadn't thought of that.
I've read a few threads about it, but I'm still somewhat confused - what do you need to make the jump drives work? If you're using commercial jump drives, do you have to be a commercial ship, or only need to use commercial engines?

[amimai]

Why im AGAINST building uber bricks :
my argument simply comes down to the issue of HS/jump drive

1 - 100kt uber brick uses 20% its HS allotment for its jump drive
5 - 20kt battle cruisers use 5% of their total HS for jump drives
10 - 10kt cruisers use 3% of their total HS for jump drive (assuming you have the required Squad size tech)

if you want you can pack the space saved with armor, 15%HS of armor is 9 extra layers of armor even at ion tech
making each 20kt battle cruiser nearly as tough as your whole 100kt brick
also there is something to be said for being able to load 4-10x as many spinal mount lasers on your boat

[AL (OP)]

To be completely fair, the only time (military) jump drives are indispensable are in jump point assaults (I have encountered this situation exactly once so far...), and as TDS mentioned you would most likely want to build a specialised fleet regardless for that circumstance. Every other time it is sufficient to use jump tenders or follow jump gate networks - in other words, jump drives on "uber bricks" are more of a convenience/do everything thing. So this means, if you are optimising your ship for battle and battle only then this is nowhere near as big of a concern as you are making it out to be.

[amimai]

Hmm i was assuming you were putting all of your production capacity to making one big ship rather then mass producing these

[83athom]

Why im AGAINST building uber bricks :
my argument simply comes down to the issue of HS/jump drive

1 - 100kt uber brick uses 20% its HS allotment for its jump drive
5 - 20kt battle cruisers use 5% of their total HS for jump drives
10 - 10kt cruisers use 3% of their total HS for jump drive (assuming you have the required Squad size tech)

You know you can use jump tenders instead of putting a jump drive on every single ship, right?

[amimai]

You know you can use jump tenders instead of putting a jump drive on every single ship, right?

yes that's why the 5x20kt has only 5% of its HS used by jump drive

you do realize you need to build a ship of at least the same size so it can be used as a jump tender?

amusing you are like me, you multipurpose that ship as a tanker/maintenance hauler, but it still needs to be able to keep up with the fleet for it to work

also:

Hmm i was assuming you were putting all of your production capacity to making one big ship rather then mass producing these

[AL (OP)]

I will still build other ships like the usual commercial freighters/transports/fuel harvesters as well as military surveys/system defense frigates/fighters/etc, but I generally tend to limit the number of warships I have in service or things start to become a bit too cumbersome to manage.

Anyway, I've thrown together a 1mt design incorporating (hopefully) infinite deployment time via a recreation module, take a look and tell me if I forgot something important...

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Vindicator class Cruiser    1 000 000 tons     12977 Crew     104975.5999 BP      TCS 20000  TH 75000  EM 60000
3750 km/s    JR 2-25(C)     Armour 12-890     Shields 2000-300     Sensors 180/320/2/2     Damage Control Rating 300     PPV 1250
Maint Life 0.07 Years     MSP 18122    AFR 40000%    IFR 555.6%    1YR 250896    5YR 3763442    Max Repair 4457 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Flight Crew Berths 675   
Flag Bridge    Hangar Deck Capacity 50000 tons     Troop Capacity: 2 Battalions    Magazine 30000    Cryogenic Berths 10000    Cargo Handling Multiplier 50   
Recreational Facilities
Fuel Harvester: 5 modules producing 250000 litres per annum

Trinity Hyperspace Core C-1.035m     Max Ship Size 1035000 tons    Distance 25k km     Squadron Size 2
Hydrani P-Fusion Commercial Sublight Drive (150)    Power 500    Fuel Use 2.65%    Signature 500    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 52 520 000 Litres    Range 356.7 billion km   (1101 days at full power)
Xantheon Reactive Armour (400)   Total Fuel Cost  6 000 Litres per hour  (144 000 per day)

Hydrani-Pattern Shield System (50x10)    Range 1000 km     TS: 32000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit
200mm Flechette Cannon (50x4)    Range 320 000km     TS: 8000 km/s     Power 36-6     RM 6    ROF 30        12 12 12 12 12 12 10 9 8 7
Clayton Long-Range Fire Control (10)    Max Range: 320 000 km   TS: 5000 km/s     97 94 91 88 84 81 78 75 72 69
Tokamak Fusion Core (5)     Total Power Output 320    Armour 0    Exp 5%

150mm Auto-Cannon Mk.II (200)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 5
Standard Torpedo Bay (100)    Missile Size 10    Rate of Fire 250
Cannon Control Centre Mk.III (20)     Range 17.8m km    Resolution 15
King-Lowe Torpedo Guidance Centre (10)     Range 756.0m km    Resolution 100
150mm "Striker" Shell (2000)  Speed: 28 800 km/s   End: 4.8m    Range: 8.2m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 297/178/89
"Perdiot" Torpedo (500)  Speed: 9 600 km/s   End: 1315.5m    Range: 762.7m km   WH: 4    Size: 10    TH: 32/19/9
"Stalker" Torpedo (500)  Speed: 12 800 km/s   End: 1007.2m    Range: 781.1m km   WH: 1    Size: 10    TH: 42/25/12
150mm "Eraser" Shell (18000)  Speed: 48 000 km/s   End: 5.7m    Range: 16.5m km   WH: 4    Size: 1    TH: 288/172/86

Savant Inc Ship Detection Sensor (1)     GPS 24000     Range 768.0m km    Resolution 100
Savant Inc Missile Detection Sensor (1)     GPS 240     Range 76.8m km    MCR 8.4m km    Resolution 1
Talbot SR Scanner Mk.II (1)     GPS 48     Range 15.4m km    MCR 1.7m km    Resolution 1
Savant Inc Missile Detection Net (1)     GPS 480     Range 153.6m km    MCR 16.7m km    Resolution 1
Savant Inc Ship Detection Net (1)     GPS 48000     Range 1 536.0m km    Resolution 100
Thermal Sensor TH10-180 (1)     Sensitivity 180     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  180m km
EM Detection Sensor EM10-320 (1)     Sensitivity 320     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  320m km
Improved Gravitational Sensors (1)   2 Survey Points Per Hour
Improved Geological Sensors (1)   2 Survey Points Per Hour

ECCM-4 (10)         ECM 40
I'm thinking the hangar space will be used for carrying about 100 fighters and an assortment of auxiliary craft. Again, outdated missiles just to get rid of stockpiles.

[amimai]

i keep forgetting you have maintenance turned off 

personally it looks like its a bit light on the armaments section 1100msp worth of firing capacity of a 1million size ship is a bit...

well lets just say 100kt missile ships easily pump out that many missiles and have storage for 10000msp worth of ammo

its probably inductive that this isn't a workable design considering your own shield has a recharge fast enough to withstand everything in your magazines 4x over at the stated fire rates...

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Imperator Maximus class Missile Cruiser    100 000 tons     1537 Crew     22779.8 BP      TCS 2000  TH 1152  EM 4500
3600 km/s     Armour 10-191     Shields 150-300     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 100     PPV 250
Maint Life 1.83 Years     MSP 8543    AFR 1333%    IFR 18.5%    1YR 3222    5YR 48336    Max Repair 1470 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 9 months    Spare Berths 1   
Flag Bridge    Troop Capacity: 2 Companies    Cryo Drop Capacity: 1 Battalion    Magazine 11030    Cargo Handling Multiplier 20   

720 EP Magneto-plasma Drive (10)    Power 720    Fuel Use 19.21%    Signature 115.2    Exp 9%
Fuel Capacity 5 000 000 Litres    Range 46.9 billion km   (150 days at full power)
Epsilon Heavy Shields (50)   Total Fuel Cost  750 Litres per hour  (18 000 per day)

Size 1 Missile Launcher (25% Reduction) (1000)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 600
Missile Fire Control FC743-R40 (10)     Range 743.8m km    Resolution 40
2/12SLR Apocalypso (11030)  Speed: 12 000 km/s   End: 1249.9m    Range: 899.9m km   WH: 2    Size: 1    TH: 40/24/12

Active Search Sensor MR78-R1 (40%) (1)     GPS 560     Range 78.4m km    MCR 8.5m km    Resolution 1
Active Search Sensor MR910-R60 (40%) (1)     GPS 50400     Range 910.9m km    Resolution 60

Compact ECCM-2 (10)         ECM 30

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

[AL (OP)]

In terms of missile alpha-strike, I calculated 1800 points worth of damage from a salvo of size-1's and the mirv's from a salvo of torpedoes, which very nearly tears down the entire strength-2000 shield.

In terms of sustained fire, there are 200 size-1's * 4 damage apiece = 800 damage every 5 seconds.
If the engagement moves within beam range, there is also another 50 railguns * 4 shots each * best case 12 damage a shot = 2400 damage every 30 seconds, which is about 400 damage per 5 seconds. All up, expect approximately 1200 damage per 5 seconds on average.
Compare that to the shield recharge rate on the ship: 2000 points recharges every 300 seconds = 6.67 points per second = 33.33 points per 5 second increment. Even if the engagement is completely outside of beam range, that isn't even 5% of the size-1 missile damage output.

I don't see where the problem is?

[amimai]

the problem is that 0,5% PD of a comparable tonnage of ship will easily tear apart 100+ missiles with just final fire mode AMS systems

your salvo density is simply not enough to harm anything

[MarcAFK]

You guys need to take it outside and fight, er I mean, go Ingame and do some skirmishes.

[AL (OP)]

Unless I'm doing something wrong, 0.5% of 1mt is "only" 5000 tons. If this is invested completely in CIWS I expect to lose ~70 of 200 missiles assuming equal tech level, so around 500 points worth of damage still gets through. Good point though, I did forget to take into account pd in my previous calculations.

The issue of salvo density did get brought up before and I think the main response was sure, a highly specialised fleet of equal mass will most likely be superior to my single design. This is the price paid for being a generalist. The design decisions/features were focussed on giving the ship strategic value in the forms of long range, self-jump capability, and infinite deployment time. This consumes around 40-60% of the total mass depending on how you want to count it up. Obviously if you try to compare this to a ship optimised entirely for battle it will not hold up too well. Even so, saying it will not harm anything is going a bit far.

You are also forgetting to take into account the fighter loadout the ship carries. Seeing how salvo density is the issue, suppose I take a 100% bomber loadout. With my current bomber design of 10 launchers on a 250 ton craft I will have a fighter missile strike of 50000/250*10 = 2000 missiles. Further calculations show you need about 20% (200 000 tons) of your 1mt ship/fleet dedicated to CIWS to repel that attack. I'm not sure I've faced more than 2 NPR fleets which total at least 200 000 tons, let alone one with that amount of mass dedicated to pd.

You guys need to take it outside and fight, er I mean, go Ingame and do some skirmishes.

Perhaps I am coming off somewhat argumentative (for lack of a better word), but it is sometimes too easy to have the original intention of a message be misinterpreted over the written medium. Maybe judicious use of emoticons would resolve this, but it's just not my style. amimai, you have my apologies if I seemed way too confrontational about this (there's the word I was looking for!).

In any case, I will take a step back and acknowledge that the number of launchers is actually quite low now that I think about it some more. However, now that I've put everything together on the ship I don't quite want to remove anything to make room for more launchers. Perhaps it is worth trading off some magazine space for the launchers?

[sneer]

pure theorycrafting , at this stage it is better to actualy go ingame and kill some stuff
1mt non overhauling military ships with fuel harvester is past my imagination
she needs 40 ! ingame years to fill tanks what is possibly on average how long many people have their games running
what is mineral cost + building time ? how long to expand shipyards and with what mineral costs ?

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Oh, I forgot to reply to a point!

I think the main problem with that idea [of using an Orbital Habitat] would be the insane-huge (military) shipyard that I would need to have in order  to build it...

Any ship tagged as an Orbital Habitat can be built with planetary industry, regardless if its military or commercial!

No shipyard required, though it does tie up your construction factories something fierce.

Anyhoo, I thought I'd post my largest military design so far. None have actually been built, mostly because I wanted to use shiny new features in newer patches.

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Expansion class Command Carrier    128 200 tons     2404 Crew     13743.6 BP      TCS 2564  TH 3300  EM 0
1716 km/s    JR 2-25(C)     Armour 6-226     Shields 0-0     Sensors 80/110/0/0     Damage Control Rating 213     PPV 54
Maint Life 5.03 Years     MSP 14272    AFR 617%    IFR 8.6%    1YR 942    5YR 14128    Max Repair 315 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 48 months    Flight Crew Berths 347   
Flag Bridge    Hangar Deck Capacity 26000 tons     Magazine 1584    Cryogenic Berths 1000    Cargo Handling Multiplier 25   

Ispartan Drive XXL     Max Ship Size 129000 tons    Distance 25k km     Squadron Size 2
Mk XIII Military Booster (11)    Power 400    Fuel Use 6.19%    Signature 300    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 7 000 000 Litres    Range 158.8 billion km   (1070 days at full power)

Pilum Heavy Laser Turret (6x1)    Range 320 000km     TS: 6250 km/s     Power 16-4     RM 4    ROF 20        16 16 16 16 12 10 9 8 7 6
Gauss Defense Grid (12x6)    Range 1000 km     TS: 16000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit
Dalian M14 Capital Targeter (2)    Max Range: 320 000 km   TS: 6000 km/s     97 94 91 88 84 81 78 75 72 69
Stellarator Fusion Reactor (4)     Total Power Output 24    Armour 0    Exp 5%

T-122 (144)  Speed: 32 000 km/s   End: 34.7m    Range: 66.7m km   WH: 9    Size: 6    TH: 117/70/35
K-125 (30)  Speed: 32 000 km/s   End: 48.2m    Range: 92.6m km   WH: 25    Size: 24    TH: 117/70/35

Dalian Torpedo Detector X1 (2)     GPS 210     Range 23.1m km    MCR 2.5m km    Resolution 1
Area Search System (1)     GPS 50400     Range 438.3m km    Resolution 160
Surveillance Telescope (1)     Sensitivity 80     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  80m km
Surveillance Grid (2)     Sensitivity 110     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  110m km

ECCM-1 (2)         ECM 10
Note: The sensors are placeholders, as the new generation sensor systems are currently under development. Effective search range is expected to double given increases in size and improvements in technology.

Expansion-class vessels represent a significant departure from previous command carrier designs as they are built from the ground up as an exploration mothership.  The 'Probe'-class variant of the standard command carriers had never been truely satisfactory, being reliant on jumpgates and constant refueling.  The Expansion class is 30% larger than the current Obsidian-class battle carrier but costs about the same to manufacture (and is 100% larger than the Probe class).  The new high-efficiency engines and most importantly the built-in jumpdrive give it drastically more flexibility and reach.  The jump drive is also capable of jumping standard heavy freighter, cryo-vessel, and troop transport designs, so an Expansion class can easily lead a convoy to establish a forward base or small colony.

Although a powerful vessel in its own right, the Expansion's primary asset is its array of parasite warships. Standard complement is projected to be

-1 squadron of 12 Troll-class multirole Strikers (12x480tons.  12x pulse laser, 24x T-115 torpedo)
-1 Ogryn squadron, consisting of 5 Ogryn Marauders and 1 Ogryn-Magi sensor/command Marauder (6x2,000tons.  10x SR pulse laser, 10x K-125 shipkiller)
-1 Ice Hawk dropship, utilizing cryogenic technology to keep 1 Genetic Legionnaire battalion available for deployment (2,000tons)
-1 survey squadron, consisting of a TBD mix of 6 geo- and grav- survey corvettes. (6x1000 tons)

The Ogryn squadron is experimental at this point. Although generally weaker than 2 additional squadrons of strikers, the Ogryn squadron is far more capable of independent operations, up to and including missile defence and target acquisition. I anticipate being able to use them for colonial defence. They have enough maintenance capability to be left on their own for years as long as there is a colony.  By the time it becomes a problem, either a carrier should be able to reach them or a maintenance base installed. 

FAUX EDIT:

Upon a little thought, I realized the chassis is easily adaptable for utility designs. The high build cost of the command carrier version means that almost any commercial design in the same tonnage range can be built from the same tooling.  For example:

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Expansion - Copy class Command Carrier    128 150 tons     2069 Crew     8870.4 BP      TCS 2563  TH 3300  EM 0
1716 km/s    JR 2-25(C)     Armour 6-226     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 213     PPV 0
MSP 9215    Max Repair 218 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Spare Berths 1   
Cryogenic Berths 1000    Cargo Handling Multiplier 25   
Maintenance Modules: 10 module(s) capable of supporting ships of 2000 tons

Ispartan Drive XXL     Max Ship Size 129000 tons    Distance 25k km     Squadron Size 2
Mk XIII Military Booster (11)    Power 400    Fuel Use 6.19%    Signature 300    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 3 000 000 Litres    Range 68.0 billion km   (458 days at full power)

Gauss Defense Grid (11x6)    Range 1000 km     TS: 16000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit
This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposesA ready-to-go maintenance base design, capable of supporting the Ogryn-class Marauders

[amimai]

i decided to continue the series:

The Demonslayer class Battlecruiser
it lives to make low the strong and slaughter the weak

32x 12cm PD laser (rof5)
16x 25cm DP laser (rof20)
1x 38cm Primary laser (rof40)

16x Meson Cannon (rof5) (PD/Anti Armor)
5x Microwave cannon (rof5) (Shield Killer/Anti-electronics)

33% internal armor
10x Backup radars (this is another thing you forgot on your massive 1mt floating deathtrap)

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Demonslayer class Battlecruiser    100 000 tons     2677 Crew     30848.6 BP      TCS 2000  TH 1971.2  EM 6750
6160 km/s     Armour 12-191     Shields 225-300     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 96     PPV 446.2
Maint Life 1.19 Years     MSP 10894    AFR 1415%    IFR 19.7%    1YR 7951    5YR 119266    Max Repair 1008 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 9 months    Spare Berths 0   
Troop Capacity: 2 Companies    Cryo Drop Capacity: 1 Battalion    Magazine 440    Cargo Handling Multiplier 20   

880 EP Magneto-plasma Drive (14)    Power 880    Fuel Use 31.73%    Signature 140.8    Exp 11%
Fuel Capacity 10 000 000 Litres    Range 56.7 billion km   (106 days at full power)
Epsilon Heavy Shields (75)   Total Fuel Cost  1 125 Litres per hour  (27 000 per day)

Twin 12cm PD Autolaser Turret (16x2)    Range 200 000km     TS: 20000 km/s     Power 8-10     RM 5    ROF 5        4 4 4 4 4 3 2 2 2 2
38cm Primary Laser (1)    Range 384 000km     TS: 6160 km/s     Power 38-5     RM 5    ROF 40        38 38 38 38 38 31 27 23 21 19
Quad Heavy Autolaser Turret (4x4)    Range 384 000km     TS: 20000 km/s     Power 64-20     RM 5    ROF 20        16 16 16 16 16 13 11 10 8 8
Quad R8/C5 Meson Cannon Turret (4x4)    Range 80 000km     TS: 20000 km/s     Power 16-20     RM 8    ROF 5        1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0
R8/C5 High Power Microwave (5)    Range 80 000km     TS: 6160 km/s     Power 4-5     RM 8    ROF 5        1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0
Meson FCS (2)    Max Range: 192 000 km   TS: 20000 km/s     95 90 84 79 74 69 64 58 53 48
PD Autolaser Controlls (4)    Max Range: 288 000 km   TS: 20000 km/s     97 93 90 86 83 79 76 72 69 65
H8 FCS (1)    Max Range: 384 000 km   TS: 20000 km/s     97 95 92 90 87 84 82 79 77 74
5c Tokamak Fusion Reactor (80)     Total Power Output 400    Armour 0    Exp 20%

T9 Fast SRT  (100)  Speed: 39 700 km/s   End: 0.8m    Range: 1.9m km   WH: 9    Size: 3    TH: 132/79/39

Active Search Sensor MR78-R1 (40%) (1)     GPS 560     Range 78.4m km    MCR 8.5m km    Resolution 1
Backup Sensor (10)     GPS 28     Range 3.9m km    MCR 427k km    Resolution 1

Compact ECCM-2 (7)         ECM 30