Author Topic: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP  (Read 7473 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Beersatron (OP)

  • Gold Supporter
  • Rear Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 996
  • Thanked: 7 times
  • Gold Supporter Gold Supporter : Support the forums with a Gold subscription
Towing Asteroids to use as OWP
« on: November 16, 2009, 03:27:24 PM »
I am re-reading the Starfire novel 'Crusade' and am at the part about Asteroids that have been converted into super OWP's. That got me thinking if it would be possible to tow an asteroid within a system to orbit of a planet. From there you could 'Install PDC' or equivalent and then tow it out to the location you wish to deploy it.

I guess there are few things to take into consideration:

1. Not sure if you do this already, but when generating asteroids do you give them a mass and three dimensions? That would mean you could only do this to asteroids that are a certain size - depending on how many PDCs you install.

2. it needs to have maintenance storage and usage but probably give it a highly reduced failure rate?
2.1 possibly allow maintenance facilities so it can act as a harbor for patrol vessels?
2.2 let it be designated as a collier, tanker and supply vessel/station.

3. Allow shields? or just rely on the natural armor of the asteroid used - depending on the (Duranium/Volume-of-asteroid) ratio? When installing the PDC ignore any inherent armor level added to the design.

4. When converted to an OWP remove it from the acceptable list of locations to drop off planetary sensors and mines.

5. Do not allow it to be transferred through a JP, even one with a gate.

6. ensure that any movement by tugs is slow but let multiple tugs pull it - depending on size of the asteroid


Sound feasible?
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

  • Aurora Designer
  • Star Marshal
  • S
  • Posts: 11672
  • Thanked: 20455 times
Re: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2009, 10:38:25 AM »
Quote from: "Beersatron"
I am re-reading the Starfire novel 'Crusade' and am at the part about Asteroids that have been converted into super OWP's. That got me thinking if it would be possible to tow an asteroid within a system to orbit of a planet. From there you could 'Install PDC' or equivalent and then tow it out to the location you wish to deploy it.

I guess there are few things to take into consideration:

1. Not sure if you do this already, but when generating asteroids do you give them a mass and three dimensions? That would mean you could only do this to asteroids that are a certain size - depending on how many PDCs you install.

2. it needs to have maintenance storage and usage but probably give it a highly reduced failure rate?
2.1 possibly allow maintenance facilities so it can act as a harbor for patrol vessels?
2.2 let it be designated as a collier, tanker and supply vessel/station.

3. Allow shields? or just rely on the natural armor of the asteroid used - depending on the (Duranium/Volume-of-asteroid) ratio? When installing the PDC ignore any inherent armor level added to the design.

4. When converted to an OWP remove it from the acceptable list of locations to drop off planetary sensors and mines.

5. Do not allow it to be transferred through a JP, even one with a gate.

6. ensure that any movement by tugs is slow but let multiple tugs pull it - depending on size of the asteroid

Sound feasible?
A fascinating idea. Not sure I can find a way to make it work but still fascinating to look at the possibilities. There are two sides to the question I think. The first is can you 'hollow out' an asteroid and turn it into a floating PDC. The second is can you move asteroids around. The reason to split this into two sections is that either by itself would be cool even if you couldn't do the other. Assuming you could move asteroids, I think the simplest way to approach this would simply be to avoid the complexities of 'hollowing out' and treat the asteroid as any other system body and place several PDCs on it. That allows asteroid fortresses with the minimum modification to the rules.  

Anyway - lets look at moving asteroids first. Asteroids in Aurora do have diameter and mass, just like planets and moons. However all system bodies have been given a minimum mass 0f 0.0001 Earths, so as the first stage of looking at this idea I removed that minimum. Low masses will now be shown on the system view in scientific notiation to two significant figures to allow for realistic asteroid masses.

The formula used by Aurora to determine mass in Earth equivalents is: Mass = ((Radius / 6380) ^ 3) x Density (where Earth is density 1)

So Mars, which has a radius of 3400 km and a density of 0.71 would be Mass = ((3400 / 6380) ^ 3) x 0.71, which is 0.107 Earth masses and matches up with the Wiki entry for Mars
Mercury has a radius of 2440km and a density of 0.98: Mass = ((2440 / 6380) ^ 3) x 0.98, which is 0.055 Earth masses and also matches up with the Wiki
Lets try an asteroid with a radius of 20 kilometers and a density of 1: Mass = ((20 / 6380) ^ 3) x 1, which is 3.08055E-08 Earth masses.

Now we getting into scientific notation in terms of Earth masses so lets convert to metric tons instead. Earth is approximately 5.9736E+21 metric tons so if we multiply this by the Earth mass equivalent of our 40 km diameter asteroid, we get 1.8402E+14 metric tons or 184 trillion tons. So we won't be moving that then :)

How about an asteroid 1 km in diameter? Mass = ((0.5 / 6380) ^ 3) x 1, which is 4.81336E-13 Earth masses, or about 2.9 billion tons. Starting to get into the type of range we can visualise but still way beyond anything an Aurora tug could move. As we are getting into sizes that don't relate very much to something the size of the Earth, lets just double-check that figure by calculating the mass of a sphere 1 kilometer in diameter with the same density as the Earth (5.5153 g/cm^3)

4/3 x PI x 50,000cm^3 x 5.5153 =2.88781E+15 grams, or 2.88781E+12 kilograms or 2.9 billion metric tons.

How about an asteroid 100 meters in diameter (glossing over the fact there are no tiny asteroids in Aurora). 4/3x PI x 5000cm^3 x 5.5153 =2.88781E+12 grams, 2.9 million metric tons. Hmm, still gynormous but lets start looking whether a tug could move a ship that big. Here is large, expensive tug but certainly possible for a decent size Empire. Lets assume it tried to move a base as large as the asteroid, which would be a size 58,000 hull.

Code: [Select]
Brooklyn class Tug    27200 tons     2630 Crew     3465.8 BP      TCS 544  TH 6000  EM 0
11029 km/s     Armour 1-80     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 0
Annual Failure Rate: 5918%    IFR: 82.2%    Maintenance Capacity 80 MSP    Max Repair 100 MSP
Tractor Beam    

Ion Engine (100)    Power 60    Fuel Use 70%    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 500,000 Litres    Range 47.3 billion km   (49 days at full power)
The ship has 6000 engine power and the combined size of the ship and asteroid is 58,544. Towing speed is equal to Int((Engine Power/ Total Size) * 1000), which is Int(6000/58544)*1000) = 102 km/s

So to my surprise, this is starting to look possible for small asteroids. Bear im mind they are usually less dense than Earth as well so the actual towing speed would likely be slighty higher. If you can accept even slower towing speeds, the above ship could move a 200 meter asteroid (23 million tons) at 13 km/s. As I said earlier, there are no asteroids this small in Aurora. Adding them would be very straightforward though. They wouldn't contain minerals but they would be available to convert into some type of base, probably by building a PDC on them. The easiest way would be to ship in the parts then use engineers to assemble the PDC. Add some tracking stations and perhaps some troops and you have a semi-mobile base, probably with some serious armour protection. If it was handled that way, the only thing I would need to change would be the addition of small asteroids, the ability to tow them and perhaps some type of stationkeeping system so they could be deployed near jump points.

Steve
 

Offline ShadoCat

  • Commander
  • *********
  • Posts: 327
  • Thanked: 1 times
    • http://www.assistsolar.com
Re: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2009, 06:48:27 PM »
Steve,

If you get involved in moving asteroids, you're going to have to answer one question that I don't think this game needs an answer to:

How much damage does an asteroid do when it falls on a planet?

Offline James Patten

  • Lt. Commander
  • ********
  • J
  • Posts: 257
  • Thanked: 2 times
Re: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2009, 06:15:30 AM »
Quote from: "ShadoCat"
How much damage does an asteroid do when it falls on a planet?

I think the hand-wavium aspect of trans-newtonian materials eliminates that problem.  I notice that in the game if your ship's engines are destroyed that your movement stops, even relative to the sun.  So I think you'd be able to tow an asteroid to a planet but it won't crash.

Something I've always wanted to do is have a mass driver receiving minerals at a spot somewhere near a jump point, especially in those systems where the jump point is far out on the perimeter of the system.  That way your freighter doesn't need to make the long trip in-system.
 

Offline Beersatron (OP)

  • Gold Supporter
  • Rear Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 996
  • Thanked: 7 times
  • Gold Supporter Gold Supporter : Support the forums with a Gold subscription
Re: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2009, 09:44:12 AM »
I never thought about the real world size of an asteroid and how much mass that would be!

I'm glad you think it could be workable though, should open up some possibilities, especially like what James mentioned in terms of using them as a mineral way station. Although you would get to the point were how much mineral storage capacity would a 'small' asteroid have that already has been hollowed out to fit a PDC or 3!
 

Offline Laurence

  • Warrant Officer, Class 1
  • *****
  • L
  • Posts: 92
  • Thanked: 15 times
Re: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2009, 01:53:53 PM »
Quote from: "James Patten"
Something I've always wanted to do is have a mass driver receiving minerals at a spot somewhere near a jump point, especially in those systems where the jump point is far out on the perimeter of the system.  That way your freighter doesn't need to make the long trip in-system.

What a fantastic idea!  You could even station a freighter at the JP and just have it go back and forth, dumping minerals on another asteroid in the second system, which could them mass driver it on to a planet (or another asteroid at a second JP).
 

Offline ShadoCat

  • Commander
  • *********
  • Posts: 327
  • Thanked: 1 times
    • http://www.assistsolar.com
Re: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2009, 08:00:46 PM »
Quote from: "Laurence"
What a fantastic idea!  You could even station a freighter at the JP and just have it go back and forth, dumping minerals on another asteroid in the second system, which could them mass driver it on to a planet (or another asteroid at a second JP).

I agree.  

Hmmm,  :twisted: Steve, can you use a mass driver through a jump gate?

You could have a mineral transport system like Starfire's old ICN system.

Oh, Beer, you can store as great a quantity of minerals as you like.  It's not like a small asteroid has a huge gravity well, just set them down gently enough that thy don't bounce off and continue to pile.  As you pile more, the asteroids gravity will increase by a slight amount and make stacking easier.  Having "too many" minerals stacked simply means that you now have an asteroid resting on a pile of minerals.

Offline Steve Walmsley

  • Aurora Designer
  • Star Marshal
  • S
  • Posts: 11672
  • Thanked: 20455 times
Re: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2009, 10:02:24 AM »
Quote from: "Beersatron"
I never thought about the real world size of an asteroid and how much mass that would be!

I'm glad you think it could be workable though, should open up some possibilities, especially like what James mentioned in terms of using them as a mineral way station. Although you would get to the point were how much mineral storage capacity would a 'small' asteroid have that already has been hollowed out to fit a PDC or 3!
Well if the original asteroid weighs a couple of million tons, then you could stack a lot of minerals on it :)

Steve
 

Offline Randy

  • Sub-Lieutenant
  • ******
  • Posts: 146
  • Thanked: 1 times
Re: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2009, 05:31:20 PM »
Umm...

  Next logical question: Why not build a "PDC" with engines on it to push the asteroid around?   :mrgreen:
 

Offline waresky

  • Registered
  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 1486
  • Thanked: 8 times
  • Alpine Mountaineer..ohh Yeah!
Re: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2009, 04:50:47 AM »
this is my answer to Imperial pressure on War Effort demand:

Code: [Select]
FNE BattleSky class Orbital Weapon Platform    339900 tons     26724 Crew     86047.4001 BP      TCS 6798  TH 504  EM 1800
98 km/s     Armour 15-433     Shields 60-240     Sensors 160/1200/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1641     PPV 468
Annual Failure Rate: 887%    IFR: 12.3%    Maintenance Capacity 164716 MSP    Max Repair 4200 MSP
Flag Bridge    Hangar Deck Capacity 20000 tons     Troop Capacity: 1.6 Battalions    Magazine 21238    
Fuel Harvester: 10 modules producing 400000 litres per annum
Maintenance Modules: 2 module(s) capable of supporting ships of 400 tons

GECiv Ion Engine E0.2 (6)    Power 112    Fuel Use 2%    Signature 84    Armour 0    Exp 0%
Fuel Capacity 12,000,000 Litres    Range 3150.0 billion km   (372023 days at full power)
Gamma R240/8 Shields (30)   Total Fuel Cost  240 Litres per day

Quad 300mm C10 Extreme X-ray Laser Turret (5x4)    Range 600,000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 96-40     RM 9    ROF 15        24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 21
CIWS-320 ECCM-2 (20x10)    Range 1000 km     TS: 32000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit
GB Fire Control S05 300-10000 H40 (5)    Max Range: 600,000 km   TS: 10000 km/s     98 97 95 93 92 90 88 87 85 83
Gas-Cooled Fast Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (30)     Total Power Output 675    Armour 0    Exp 5%

RGM Size 10 Missile Launcher (10)    Missile Size 10    Rate of Fire 40
RGM Size 6 Missile Launcher (12)    Missile Size 6    Rate of Fire 25
RGM Size 2 Missile Launcher (12)    Missile Size 2    Rate of Fire 10
RIM Size 1 Missile Launcher (24)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 5
RGM Size 24 Missile Launcher (2)    Missile Size 24    Rate of Fire 90
A-Boat Missile Fire Control FC2016-R18 (40%) (2)     Range 1,088.6m km    Resolution 18
RIM Missile Fire Control FC240-R1 (40%) (8)     Range 7.2m km    Resolution 1
A-Ship 5k Missile Fire Control FC288-R100 (40%) (2)     Range 864.0m km    Resolution 100
A-Boat Missile Fire Control FC384-R18 (40%) (2)     Range 207.4m km    Resolution 18
A-Fighter Missile Fire Control FC480-R4 (40%) (2)     Range 57.6m km    Resolution 4
RIM-1 Guardian 167 (4000)  Speed: 33,600 km/s   End: 1.5m    Range: 3m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 537 / 322 / 161
RGM-10 Maverick-T 167 (700)  Speed: 19,200 km/s   End: 85.9m    Range: 99m km   WH: 24    Size: 10    TH: 134 / 80 / 40
ThermalBuoy-T 32 45 (14)  Speed: 0 km/s   End: 1350d    Range: 0m km   WH: 0    Size: 12    TH: 0 / 0 / 0
RBM-2 SiegeArrow T 167 (900)  Speed: 18,700 km/s   End: 2.7m    Range: 3m km   WH: 12    Size: 2    TH: 162 / 97 / 48
RGM-6 Arrowhead T 169 (1400)  Speed: 16,000 km/s   End: 125m    Range: 120m km   WH: 12    Size: 6    TH: 122 / 73 / 36

AF 36 Active Search Sensor S1728-R5 (40%) (1)     GPS 8640     Range 86.4m km    Resolution 5
AS 36 Active Search Sensor S1728-R20 (40%) (1)     GPS 34560     Range 345.6m km    Resolution 20
BattleArea AS 50 Active Search Sensor S2400-R20 (40%) (1)     GPS 48000     Range 480.0m km    Resolution 20
XSEH 26 Active Search Sensor S1248-R1 (40%) (1)     GPS 1248     Range 12.5m km    Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH5-160 (40%) (1)     Sensitivity 160     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  160m km
BattleArea 8XL EM Detection Sensor EM50-1200 (40%) (1)     Sensitivity 1200     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  1200m km

ECCM-2 (5)         ECM 20

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes

 :twisted:

ive all ready to build this real monster..but my Emperor..r little..curious to know our "Mates" Naval Designer here..BEFORE send ALL at Mars..vacancy holydays Inn
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

  • Aurora Designer
  • Star Marshal
  • S
  • Posts: 11672
  • Thanked: 20455 times
Re: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2009, 03:38:56 PM »
Quote from: "Randy"
Umm...

  Next logical question: Why not build a "PDC" with engines on it to push the asteroid around?   :)

Steve
 

Offline Kurt

  • Gold Supporter
  • Vice Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1766
  • Thanked: 3389 times
  • 2021 Supporter 2021 Supporter : Donate for 2021
    Gold Supporter Gold Supporter : Support the forums with a Gold subscription
    2022 Supporter 2022 Supporter : Donate for 2022
    2023 Supporter 2023 Supporter : Donate for 2023
Re: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2009, 09:21:01 PM »
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "Randy"
Umm...

  Next logical question: Why not build a "PDC" with engines on it to push the asteroid around?   :)

Steve

I’ve been thinking about the concepts raised in this thread, as they have re-awakened the B-5 fan in me <G>.

I have always wanted to be able to do something along the lines of B-5 in both Starfire and Aurora, and to have it make economic sense.  The problem with the “towing asteroids” concept raised in this thread is that Aurora prohibits the establishment of manned colonies on bodies smaller than moons, at least for most races.  To stay within that boundary and still be able to make a B-5 type station, I propose the introduction of a “Space Station”, which is a mega-project, in essence.

As I envision it, a Space Station is a civilian structure primarily and has two basic components, Structure and Modules.  Structure contains connection points for modules, and also contains station crew, power, and maintenance areas.  Modules are the reason for the existence of the station in the first place.  While I suppose they could be built anywhere, it might make sense to limit them to locations close to warp points to justify the economic bonuses discussed below.  So far I have thought of the following modules:

Population Module (PM): A PM holds living and work spaces for population, perhaps the same amount that can be transported in a cryo-transport module.  Perhaps more, as this is supposed to be big.  If it isn’t doing anything else, population on a station generates income at, say, five or even ten times what a standard planetary population would generate.  This is due to a “Way-station” trade bonus.

Cargo Module (CM): A CM is exactly like the cargo modules used for freighters.  They can be the same size, or as with PM’s they can be larger.  Anything that can be transported in a freighter’s hold can be stored in a CM.

Mass Driver (MD):  An MD is the same as a planetary mass driver.  A station with an MD can either receive minerals or send them to another location within a system.  

Troop Module (TM): Exactly like the PDC’s troop capacity.  

Military Module (MM): This can mount offensive and defensive weapons.  While its active defenses can cover the entire station, its armor covers only the module and it either cannot have shields, or the shields will attenuate if they have to cover the entire station.  

There are other possibilities.  Fuel refineries, research labs, shipyards, maintenance facilities, all are possible.  

As I envision it, construction ships would be used to build the station’s structure, which would have to be built in place, while the modules could either be built (slowly) in place by construction ships or at planets by industry and then towed to their final destination and installed by construction ships once they arrive.

I’m sure there are other modules and ideas.  I am not sure if the military modules are a good idea.  These structures should be vulnerable, not mega-fortresses sitting on warp points, unless everyone thinks that that is a good way to go.

What does everyone think?
 

Offline sloanjh

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral of the Fleet
  • *****
  • Posts: 2805
  • Thanked: 112 times
  • 2020 Supporter 2020 Supporter : Donate for 2020
    2021 Supporter 2021 Supporter : Donate for 2021
Re: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2009, 09:43:31 PM »
Quote from: "Kurt"
What does everyone think?

Don't forget the beanstalk :-)

Seriously, if your station anchored the top of a beanstalk, then you could have trade/loading/... advantages, at least comparable to the commercial spaceport.  In fact that might be a cool civilian installation to be able to build one or more of for economic benefit - "beanstalk" (they'd have to be REALLY expensive).

John
 

Offline James Patten

  • Lt. Commander
  • ********
  • J
  • Posts: 257
  • Thanked: 2 times
Re: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2009, 06:36:25 AM »
I think the Trans-Newtonian materials eliminates the need to worry about gravity, which is why you'd have a bean stalk in the first place so that you could get out of your gravity well.

The Babylon station concept was originally intended to serve as an interplanetary meeting place, IIRC.  Not hard to do when everyone has hyperspacial travel and can get to it from pretty much anywhere.  Not so easy when everyone has to travel through jump points and "invade" someone's space to get to it.
 

Offline ShadoCat

  • Commander
  • *********
  • Posts: 327
  • Thanked: 1 times
    • http://www.assistsolar.com
Re: Towing Asteroids to use as OWP
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2009, 12:03:28 AM »
Quote from: "Kurt"
I have always wanted to be able to do something along the lines of B-5 in both Starfire and Aurora, and to have it make economic sense.  The problem with the “towing asteroids” concept raised in this thread is that Aurora prohibits the establishment of manned colonies on bodies smaller than moons, at least for most races.  To stay within that boundary and still be able to make a B-5 type station, I propose the introduction of a “Space Station”, which is a mega-project, in essence.

...

What does everyone think?

I've always assumed that when we get into space permanently that planets will be less likely to hold people than space stations.