Author Topic: Part 11: Summary of Beam Weapons and CIWS  (Read 11425 times)

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Offline Mor

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Re: Part 11: Summary of Beam Weapons and CIWS
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2016, 12:24:47 PM »
1. Exactly, that why I am surprised that a turret FC base size is twice of a standard 4x FC size (either that or its assumed that CIWS would need an FC per gun, which doesn't make sense to me)
3. Not if its a back up. For example if I put it on reconnaissance cruiser, obviously it should make a difference if its making full speed maneuvers or parked as support for JP defense.

4. Any idea what is the full hit chance formula? (i.e. how missile speed, crew grade and electronic warfare comes to play)
 

Offline iceball3

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Re: Part 11: Summary of Beam Weapons and CIWS
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2016, 12:50:34 PM »
Interestingly, turrets with a designed tracking speed of 0 end up behaving like unturreted weapons.
Theoretically useful if you don't need additional tracking speed but you do want to armour your weapons.
Oh, does it? That's a relief. I was worried about trying to find a way to defend myself against mesons, and I was worried that I couldn't internally armor turrets without having to use a bunch of gear just to match the speed of my ship.
 

Offline sublight

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Re: Part 11: Summary of Beam Weapons and CIWS
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2016, 01:15:42 PM »
1. Exactly, that why I am surprised that a turret FC base size is twice of a standard 4x FC size (either that or its assumed that CIWS would need an FC per gun, which doesn't make sense to me)
3. Not if its a back up. For example if I put it on reconnaissance cruiser, obviously it should make a difference if its making full speed maneuvers or parked as support for JP defense.

4. Any idea what is the full hit chance formula? (i.e. how missile speed, crew grade and electronic warfare comes to play)

1. If true then CIWS would still be using the old base BFC base size of 1 HS rather than the current 0.5 HS base size. (Bug)

4. Something like: Base * min(1, Track_speed / target_speed) * crewgrade * moral * R

Base is normally 100%, can be lower for reduced size gauss.
R = 1 - fire_range/(max_range * (100% - max(0%, ECM - ECCM)))
R (CIWS) = 1 since CIWS fire at point blank range

Not included: Officer fighter bonus when applicable.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 04:58:30 PM by sublight »
 
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Offline Mor

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Re: Part 11: Summary of Beam Weapons and CIWS
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2016, 01:38:55 PM »
Base * min(1, Track_speed / target_speed) * crewgrade * moral * R

Base is normally 100%, can be lower for reduced size gauss.
R = 1 - fire_range/(max_range * (100% - max(0%, ECM - ECCM)))
R (CIWS) = 1 since CIWS fire at point blank range

Not included: Officer fighter bonus when applicable.
That is very helpful, but it also suggest that your max hit rate is equal to your base rate. So I hope that the Hit Rate display is bugged and isn't always 50%.


Last things. Concerning Jump Shock, does CIWS self-contained nature make it impervious to its effects?
 

Offline 83athom

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Re: Part 11: Summary of Beam Weapons and CIWS
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2016, 02:09:05 PM »
That is very helpful, but it also suggest that your max hit rate is equal to your base rate. So I hope that the Hit Rate display is bugged and isn't always 50%.
CIWS is 2 half sized gauss guns, so it is always 2x 50% (2 cannons each with 50% hit chance).
Last things. Concerning Jump Shock, does CIWS self-contained nature make it impervious to its effects?
Yes.
Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 

Offline Mor

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Re: Part 11: Summary of Beam Weapons and CIWS
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2016, 04:18:22 PM »
@sublight. NM, my bad. For some reasons I thought min include all that formula. (that why multi tasking doesn't work, kids don't text and drive, also your last min should have been max)

@83athom. If not for crewgrade, moral and Officer fighter bonus, for me those would be bad odds even under the best circumstances.
 

Offline iceball3

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Re: Part 11: Summary of Beam Weapons and CIWS
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2016, 04:40:52 PM »
@sublight. NM, my bad. For some reasons I thought min include all that formula. (that why multi tasking doesn't work, kids don't text and drive, also your last min should have been max)

@83athom. If not for crewgrade, moral and Officer fighter bonus, for me those would be bad odds even under the best circumstances.
It's the drawback for using half-size gauss cannons. The best way to mitigate it is, aside from crew, is using several and researching higher fire rates. 2x2x4 CIWS can filter quite a bit of damage, assuming you put any armor on the ships they're used for.
Either way, the CIWS is a commercial design. If you really need that 90%-100% hit ratio per shot, you can design turrets using larger gauss cannons for use on military ships.
 

Offline Mor

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Re: Part 11: Summary of Beam Weapons and CIWS
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2016, 04:47:41 PM »
All our tech benefit to tracking\targeting translate into less size. Does that mean that 'Max Tracking Time Bonus vs Missiles' tech doesn't have any effect on CIWS? (not in the formula above)
 

Offline sublight

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Re: Part 11: Summary of Beam Weapons and CIWS
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2016, 05:08:17 PM »
In theory you gain a cumulative +2% tracking bonus per 5-second tick the missiles are in active scanning range up to your max tech, but in practice my v6.4 event logs have never reflected this.

Also, min/max corrected.
 

Offline iceball3

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Re: Part 11: Summary of Beam Weapons and CIWS
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2016, 05:17:41 PM »
All our tech benefit to tracking\targeting translate into less size. Does that mean that 'Max Tracking Time Bonus vs Missiles' tech doesn't have any effect on CIWS? (not in the formula above)
BFC Tracking Speed translate into a larger more expensive CIWS, with increased tracking speed capability.
Turret gear size tech works to counteract a portion of the size and cost increase.
 

Offline Mor

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Re: Part 11: Summary of Beam Weapons and CIWS
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2016, 05:59:16 PM »
Currently:
FC range will effect FC component size.
FC tracking will effect Turret component size.
Turret gear size will effect nothing.

Either its bugged too or I am too stupid to figure out the finer points of this. Either way I give up, I'll update it as is on the wiki on my next break.
 

Offline Mor

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Re: Part 11: Summary of Beam Weapons and CIWS
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2016, 08:41:26 PM »
Well I have updated the entries to the best of my understanding, of all the above:
http://aurorawiki.pentarch.org/index.php?title=Turret
http://aurorawiki.pentarch.org/index.php?title=CIWS

4. Something like: Base * min(1, Track_speed / target_speed) * crewgrade * moral * R

Base is normally 100%, can be lower for reduced size gauss.
R = 1 - fire_range/(max_range * (100% - max(0%, ECM - ECCM)))
R (CIWS) = 1 since CIWS fire at point blank range

I wanted to add this formula, but upon a second look I am not its correct i.e. if R(CIWS) = 1. Then:

Code: [Select]
Chance to Hit = 50% * min(1, Tracking_Speed / Target_Speed) * Crew_Grade * Crew_Moral
Which doesn't factor the ECCM component in anyway...
 

Offline 83athom

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Re: Part 11: Summary of Beam Weapons and CIWS
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2016, 07:13:34 AM »
@83athom. If not for crewgrade, moral and Officer fighter bonus, for me those would be bad odds even under the best circumstances.
Think of it this way, instead of 2x 50% lets use a 1x 100% at a fire rate of 5 per increment. The 1x would have the best chance of getting all of its shots to hit, so its almost guaranteed to hit 5 missiles at final fire. The 2x will fire 10 shots at a 50% hit chance (usually 60%+ after crew grade and tracking bonus), so the average missiles hit would be 5. However, the 2x also has the chances to hit 10 missiles in a single increment, but it also has the chance to miss all of its shots. The other benefit is that its a self contained unit, so it is immune to HPMs.
Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 

Offline Mor

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Re: Part 11: Summary of Beam Weapons and CIWS
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2016, 03:59:30 PM »
still remember probability from Uni, so I understand hit chance. What I was saying is that*, that no matter how superior your technical capabilities are, you Base Hit chance will always  be 50% (since tracking\ECM can only reduce it ** ) which means that your base chance to hit would be 75%, 87.5%, 94% (ROF 1,2,3)

Those numbers aren't encouraging, especially if you have a volley of more than one missile coming your way, in which case the chance to take them all down plummet.


*I was, assuming that formula is correct
** I haven't checked if grade\moral is can range above 1, but if it does it would be weird that all my Empire expertise can't improve my autonomous system hit chance but my crew feelings can :/
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Part 11: Summary of Beam Weapons and CIWS
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2016, 05:44:49 PM »
well, against realistically dangerous threats, your to-hit will never be 100% anyway, because the missiles will be faster than your tracking speed..  you dont even want 100% to hit, since then you cant leverage your bonuses.
 

 

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