Author Topic: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread  (Read 30242 times)

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Offline Erik Luken

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Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread
« on: February 12, 2013, 07:11:25 PM »
In an effort to help with suggestions not getting lost in the mega-5.7 thread, I'm making this thread. Only use this for suggestions pertaining to 6.x and higher.
 

Offline ollobrains

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Re: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2013, 10:23:35 PM »
To start off with the option of buying sorium mined from gas giants off the civilian lines like we do with regular minerals. 
 

Offline CheaterEater

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Re: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2013, 10:50:27 PM »
I'll repeat my two from the 5.7 thread:

Give us tech to improve the support functions of ships like engineering, life support and bridges. These are fairly common items where reduced sizes/increased efficiencies would help out. Most other items can be teched up for improved efficiency (industrial modules, engines, etc.) so it's a bit odd that these are left out. I purposefully left out fuel storage as we already have the increased fuel efficiency tech which serves much the same purpose, but it could certainly use it too with the new fuel consumption rules.

Second, have ships moving at a reduced speed burn fuel more efficiently. Currently giving my escorts a greater speed with a larger power boost is a bit of a waste if they're normally traveling at the slower fleet speed. If you averaged (or did something similar) between necessary versus max power it would greatly improve fuel efficiency on high-boost engines that are used only occasionally at max speed. It would also allow more "patrol" type ships that run more slowly while deployed but can boost to high combat speeds when necessary at a cost in overall fuel efficiency. As an example, a x2.5 power engine uses x9.88 more fuel (than a x1 boost engine). If you had the ship run at half speed it only needs a x1.25 power boost for x1.75 as much fuel consumption. An average then would give you x5.815 as much fuel per engine power hour, a very large increase in fuel economy. A x1.2 boost engine (x1.58 fuel) running at half speed for x0.6 boost (x0.28 fuel) would give a fuel efficiency of x0.93, not nearly as large of a difference. The speed would also tend to be rather slow when using a low-boost engine in the first place, making half speed much slower. It's interesting to note that a very high-boost engine can't get even close to the fuel consumption of a low-boost engine no matter how slow it goes; even if you take a x2.5 boost engine down to, say, 0.2 boost (we'll assume 0 for the consumption), the fuel requirement is still x4.94. Overall this would help high-boost engines that go at moderately slower speeds the most which is where it's needed most.
 

Online TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2013, 03:03:16 AM »
System Map system list sorting.

i'd love it if the systems dropdown auto-sorted, ala:

Populated
---
Have ships
---
No presence

I.E.

Alpha Centauri (pop50m)
Sol (pop800m)
----
Sirius(Gravsurvey)
Wolf359 (Gravsurvey)
----
Proxima Centauri (no presence)

------------------
@CheaterEater:

I would just note that would inescapably represent an increase in fuel economy, stepping back the recent changes.  Also, it would be somewhat complicated to display / control / mentally calculate.  It would also be stepping on the feet of carriers//parasite warships a little, since a dichotomy between tactical and strategic speeds is what they are all about.
 

Offline ollobrains

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Re: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2013, 03:15:17 AM »
Well my thoughts is that small ships should have a small fuel harvestor * maintence keeps such ships close to home * or perhaps emergecy fuel tanks or something that give slightly more range.  Or small bases fuel use, fuel availablilty just seems a bit out of sync at the current time
 

Offline davidb86

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Re: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2013, 08:25:20 AM »
To start off with the option of buying sorium mined from gas giants off the civilian lines like we do with regular minerals. 

ollobrains,  you can buy fuel from civilian lines by sending a ship to refuel from a civilian fuel harvester.  The more you do this the more harvesters the civilians will build.  I typically assign a tanker to make routine visits, as most gas giants are to far out of the way to send my ships to them.
 

Offline IanD

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Re: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2013, 11:53:44 AM »
No matter what flavour of engine you use for an identical power output you consume the same amount of fuel per Engine Power Hour. What this means is that a conventional engine is as fuel efficient as a Magneto-plasma drive, just you can generate more power in the same space. There is no  improvement in fuel efficiency as your engine tech improves.

This doesn't seem quite right. Almost like (in wet navy terms) as saying a reciprocating steam engine is as efficient as a high pressure steam engine is as efficient as a diesel engine is as efficient as a nuclear reactor.

With the recent changes to fuel requirements it is surely not beyond the realms of possibility to  increase engine efficiency as the tech improves. 
IanD
 

Offline xeryon

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Re: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2013, 12:50:49 PM »
Borders.  A recent topic regarding this that was started by clement brought about an epiphany for me.  I think I found a way that would promote several game mechanics

Borders in space are kind of an odd duck.  Space is so vast that hard-set borders would be highly unlikely to be established and near impossible to enforce or patrol.  More realistically would be a zone of control based on power projection.  The zones really only do one thing: influence an alien racial/governmental variable that determines their aversion to causing a reduction in diplomacy score. 

Populated systems have a value based on the size of the population and industry.  When someone enters your system, or you enter theirs uninvited, a diplomacy score adjustment is made proportional to the size of the systems and ship fleets involved.  The aversion modifier on the alien race dictates how willing a race would be to put itself in a potentially diplomatic degrading situation.  Space is really big so of course the modifiers only apply if you see or are seen on sensors (gives a little bump to stealth use here)

Unpopulated systems default to a power of your fleet score.  When a system is first visited by a ship that ship starts a counter which increases each industry interval by a factor proportionate to the tonnage of the craft present in the system.  Civilian and military craft have disproportionate rates as a military craft is a much more powerful projection of power.  The longer you control a system and guard it the higher your counter.  As long as your counter is higher than any other race you are the controlling power.  All other races would incur a diplomatic penalty for entering your system provided you witness them in the system on your sensors.  Each loss of a ship would cause a significant reduction in the control score.  A sizable battle where your fleet gets wiped out would effectively 0 your score (makes sense since you just got your butt kicked that the aliens would now control it regardless of how long you have been guarding it).  Any alien race putting down a colony with a population or with industry in a system they do not have control of would create a huge change in the current diplomacy score between the two races.  That colony would quickly erode the controlling powers control score until removed.  This would basically cause an outright war if done intentionally.  It's pretty much an invasion of sovereign territory.  Systems without a fleet presence would have a control score that naturally degrades over time.


Positive aspects of this setup:
1. The need to keep up a control score to maintain proper supply lines to various systems and not allow yourself to be cut off from expansion would necessitate building suitably protected space stations in otherwise unpopulated systems and making territory patrols a semi-regular task.  This would increase usage of an otherwise neglected portion of the game - undeveloped territories now have value.

2. Several new diplomatic options are viable just by manipulating the mechanic: right of passage treaties and trade treaties where the player has individual control over the systems allowed.  Since everything is on an aversion score if you allow a race to trade with System A with no diplomatic penalty they wouldn't enter System B unless they wanted to instigate a war (which they wouldn't if your diplomacy score is good).  This would eliminate the problems with allies and friends planting their fleets all over your sovereign territory (sometimes only to attack you years later from all their fleets parked on your colonies). 

3. Stealth.  A relatively underutilized aspect of the game, in both tech and in application would be used more often.

All of this would seem to work based on two things: First, the mechanic needs to be pretty much invisible to players as it would be very easy to game the system if you knew what the control scores or values of a system were and Second, Steve would have a fair bit of AI to figure out.  The values for all these actions would be pretty easy to calculated the complicated part seems to be can the AI be programmed to respond appropriately?

Edit: Sorry for the wall of text.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 12:53:24 PM by xeryon »
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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Re: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2013, 12:54:52 PM »
No matter what flavour of engine you use for an identical power output you consume the same amount of fuel per Engine Power Hour. What this means is that a conventional engine is as fuel efficient as a Magneto-plasma drive, just you can generate more power in the same space. There is no  improvement in fuel efficiency as your engine tech improves.

This doesn't seem quite right. Almost like (in wet navy terms) as saying a reciprocating steam engine is as efficient as a high pressure steam engine is as efficient as a diesel engine is as efficient as a nuclear reactor.

With the recent changes to fuel requirements it is surely not beyond the realms of possibility to  increase engine efficiency as the tech improves. 

This was true in pre v6 Aurora as well... to a point.  Previously this fixed ratio was fuel to hull space.  In both cases fuel efficiency is a separate tech item from power production, but is a required engine design component.  In that sense tech advancement does improve efficiency.
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley
 

Offline sublight

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Re: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2013, 01:45:52 PM »
One problem with boarders is the question "How do they know?"

I'd suggest making this visible and distinct with claim markers, or beacons. These might be a PDC/ship component or piece of infrastructure. When active they would be visible to everyone in system like a transponder. The message is simple: "Mine, says Galactic Empire X." This way any ship entering a new system can instantly and realistically know if the new location is unclaimed or not.
 

Offline Erik Luken

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Re: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2013, 01:54:19 PM »
One problem with boarders is the question "How do they know?"

I'd suggest making this visible and distinct with claim markers, or beacons. These might be a PDC/ship component or piece of infrastructure. When active they would be visible to everyone in system like a transponder. The message is simple: "Mine, says Galactic Empire X." This way any ship entering a new system can instantly and realistically know if the new location is unclaimed or not.

An option could be to make JG specific to nations. If I build a gate on my side of a JP, and you transit through, you'd have notification of who owns the gate. You could still transit through the gate like normal. If I build it on the other side of the JP, you'd get notification like above, who owns it and you can still transit.
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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Re: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2013, 01:59:36 PM »
An option could be to make JG specific to nations. If I build a gate on my side of a JP, and you transit through, you'd have notification of who owns the gate. You could still transit through the gate like normal. If I build it on the other side of the JP, you'd get notification like above, who owns it and you can still transit.
I was thinking a flavor of nav buoy at jump points to lay claim to a system.  A variation would be that only races that have established comms can read each others buoy's. 
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley
 

Offline xeryon

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Re: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2013, 03:43:07 PM »
Bouys and markers could certainly be possible, but the general concept really is more for keeping well meaning friendly races away from your population centers and clogging things up and to keep the malicious ones at bay until they really are declaring war.  Keep in mind this would be something that would apply more to races that you have established communications with, so they (presumably) would already have some information about your declared border with their race.  If they are an enemy race and you do not have communications with them then what difference would a border marking do?

In the hinterlands the borders are a lot more gray, just like here on Earth.  People often know where the borders are even without a sign but often choose to ignore the border.  There are repercussions if you get caught, though.  Within the game you really shouldn't know the control value of a system more along the lines of a fog of war.  If you sneak in a cloaked scout and you get some sensor readings on your enemies you might have an estimated value but unless you have line of sight you would never know if your enemy had 1 8000 ton cruiser or a 50 ship armada.

 

Offline Erik Luken

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Re: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2013, 03:51:47 PM »
Obviously the spoilers will not adhere to New Geneva Galactic War Conventions...

I do like the idea of not knowing who owns the system until a colony is encountered.

Which brings me to mayonnaise. (sorry, mind frakk radio commercial flashback). Anyway. The following situation:

Colony 1 -- Uninhabited -- Colony 2

Both colonies belong to the same race. Most people would claim that the Uninhabited system belongs to the race owning Colonies 1 & 2. For this situation, I think that the uninhabited system would inherit the higher cultural rating (less distance modifier from the Sector HQ) of the adjoining systems.
 

Offline xeryon

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Re: Semi-Official 6.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2013, 04:04:55 PM »
Well, the idea would be that the system between the two colonies would be traversed frequently by your own ships anyway so it's control value would be heavily in your favor.  In addition to that if you wanted to guarantee a projection of your power you would assign a military patrol to frequent the system or build a station that is assigned to guard the region.  If Colony 1 and 2 are the only JP in and out of the system it would be a moot point but if there was a third JP the patrol and base would be how you would guarantee control of the system and protect the adjoining colonies as well.

In practice right now you have no clue who "owns" a system either, so....
 

 

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