Author Topic: Weapon Reliability  (Read 7568 times)

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Offline Marski (OP)

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Weapon Reliability
« on: January 31, 2016, 02:25:08 PM »
The introduction of "Independence" button got me thinking, is Steve going to add political groups in the future?
It would spice up the gameplay a lot if a Tropico-style political gameplay was added, your population is divided between different political views, democrats, socialists, communists, nationalists etc.

Put a dissent modifier into the mix, so that if you colonize a planet with colonists who consists mainly of democrats, but your government and homeworld is wholly communists, the colony would very possibly secede.
 

Offline TheRowan

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Re: Weapon Reliability
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2016, 03:04:25 PM »
I don't know of any CIWS systems installed on other than naval vessels, but there have been studies of doing so.  They have very little impact on operations, as they basically get bolted down and have power and chilled water lines run to them.  That's it, along with a mode switch.  I do know that some ships which Aurora would classify as civilian are definitely fitted for CIWS, if not with it now.  (They're MSC, and currently unarmed, but have the mounting locations fitted and might receive the units in wartime.)

The RFA (British equivalent of the MSC) has Phalanx and other self-defence weapons mounted on ships that (in Aurora terms) would definitely be civilian designs, even in peacetime. Some of them also mount ECM and decoys, and there was also a plan early in the 90s to mount Sea Wolf missiles in a VLS on the Fort Victoria-class Replenishment Oilers.
 

Offline QuakeIV

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Re: Weapon Reliability
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2016, 04:27:32 PM »
I think that it can be agreed that the civilian/naval shipping difference was entirely an arbitrary machination of game mechanics.  Yes, you can put military gear onto civilian ships and stuff.  As far as I know it never worked particularly well though.
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Weapon Reliability
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2016, 05:34:11 PM »
I think that it can be agreed that the civilian/naval shipping difference was entirely an arbitrary machination of game mechanics.  Yes, you can put military gear onto civilian ships and stuff.  As far as I know it never worked particularly well though.

It's not totally arbitrary though. The maintenance for engines (and other systems) works pretty close to reality with latest more unreliable power-plants that are pushed to the max are installed on military ships and aircraft while civilian or support ships/planes get slower engines with better fuel economy. And with higher heat comes more need for cooling which again adds more points of failure and breakdowns.

Some real jet engines have a maintenance life in the span of hundreds of hours just, and military guns on for example battleships can only fire a few hundred times before they need to swap out the barrels for overhaul.

It's the same with all mechanical systems pushing for performance.
 

Offline 83athom

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Re: Weapon Reliability
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2016, 05:57:39 PM »
Like the new naval railguns (in development), they can fire over 100 nautical miles doing stupid amounts of damage, they break down after a few shots.
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Offline MarcAFK

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Re: Weapon Reliability
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2016, 08:06:08 PM »
Large Civilian passenger jets do need significant maintenance, however not to the extremes required by an f22.
Taking an older 474 model as an example they require around 1-2 hours of preflight checks for 6-12 hours of daily use, around 2-3000 man hours of routine maintenance a year plus something like 20000 man hours of overhaul every 20-40000 flight hours. Most models have defects requiring mandatory upgrade at certain flight hour milestones, which might add another 20000 manhours million dollar cost by the 60000 hour mark. Many are retired just before overhaul is needed to save money. Perhaps it costs something like 5 manhours of maintenence per flight hour.
In total it costs something like 20000 per flight hour including fuel, crew, maintenance parts etc.
A f22 of course is far more expensive. Around 40 me hours per flight hour, main fence needed every 3 hours of flight time. Pretty close to an older commercial jet really.
Source for 747 operating cost: Airline Maintenance Cost Executive Commentary
An exclusive benchmark analysis (FY2009 data) by IATA’s Maintenance Cost Task Force
https://www.iata.org/whatwedo/workgroups/Documents/MCTF/AMC_ExecComment_FY09.pdf
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Offline bean

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Re: Weapon Reliability
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2016, 10:26:16 AM »
It's not totally arbitrary though. The maintenance for engines (and other systems) works pretty close to reality with latest more unreliable power-plants that are pushed to the max are installed on military ships and aircraft while civilian or support ships/planes get slower engines with better fuel economy. And with higher heat comes more need for cooling which again adds more points of failure and breakdowns.
Modern naval powerplants are incredibly reliable, and take less maintenance than you'd think.  The big difference is fuel economy.  Gas turbines are good for power-to-weight and maintenance, but eat fuel. 

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Some real jet engines have a maintenance life in the span of hundreds of hours just, and military guns on for example battleships can only fire a few hundred times before they need to swap out the barrels for overhaul.
Those tend to be Russian engines.  Better metallurgy means that western engines have lives not too dissimilar from civilian engines. 
And wear on battleship guns is tremendously variable.  I don't have my references on hand at the moment, but I do recall that the short-life winner were the guns of the Vittorio Veneto class, which only lasted 150 rounds.  The last battleships (Iowas) had an additive in their powder when recommissioned in the 80s which cut barrel wear so much that they started to have to worry about fatigue instead of wear.

Like the new naval railguns (in development), they can fire over 100 nautical miles doing stupid amounts of damage, they break down after a few shots.
That's one of the main reasons they haven't entered service yet.

Large Civilian passenger jets do need significant maintenance, however not to the extremes required by an f22.
Taking an older 474 model as an example they require around 1-2 hours of preflight checks for 6-12 hours of daily use, around 2-3000 man hours of routine maintenance a year plus something like 20000 man hours of overhaul every 20-40000 flight hours.
Which older 747 are you using for that?  I can't find the exact numbers in the linked document, but this is an area where the manufacturers continue to work hard to bring down costs and time. 

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Most models have defects requiring mandatory upgrade at certain flight hour milestones, which might add another 20000 manhours million dollar cost by the 60000 hour mark.
Try 'all models'.  Nobody has built an airliner which doesn't acquire cracks in annoying places, and it happens a lot more than you think.  I'm not sure that AD compliance and the like take as much as a D-check over that amount of time.  A lot of them happen during C and D checks, which saves time.

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Perhaps it costs something like 5 manhours of maintenence per flight hour.
In total it costs something like 20000 per flight hour including fuel, crew, maintenance parts etc.
That seems slightly high.  I'm turning up numbers that are more like half that, although this topic is obviously complex enough that you could argue it either way.

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A f22 of course is far more expensive. Around 40 me hours per flight hour, main fence needed every 3 hours of flight time. Pretty close to an older commercial jet really.
40 man hours per flight hour?  That's the sort of thing you'd see on the F-14.  Those numbers date back to 2008 or so, and I suspect they're framed to get as many hours in as possible.  The program requirement was 12 direct hours per flight hour, and I think that's maybe twice the value of the Super Hornet.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 10:29:00 AM by byron »
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Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Weapon Reliability
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2016, 10:36:54 AM »
The record when it comes to wear and tear has to be the Paris gun. It could fire 65 shells before the barrel needed replacement and each shell had to used be in a numbered order getting progressively bigger due to the added barrel wear caused by the last shell  ;D

( Krupp WW1 gun with 130km range )
 

Offline bean

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Re: Weapon Reliability
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2016, 10:54:33 AM »
The record when it comes to wear and tear has to be the Paris gun. It could fire 65 shells before the barrel needed replacement and each shell had to used be in a numbered order getting progressively bigger due to the added barrel wear caused by the last shell  ;D

( Krupp WW1 gun with 130km range )
Ah, but I was only discussing battleship guns (and the guns of dreadnought battleships at that).  There have been guns with worse wear characteristics, but they generally didn't enter service, because of the logistical headaches.
(Actually, the 15" gun on the Vittorio Venetos were exceptionally powerful weapons, and I've read speculation that the reason the Italians built them that way was because they planned to operate close to home.  It's relatively easy to change barrels at your main base.  It's harder to do so at a coral atoll in the Central Pacific.)
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Offline jem

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Re: Weapon Reliability
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2016, 12:34:09 PM »
Those tend to be Russian engines.  Better metallurgy means that western engines have lives not too dissimilar from civilian engines. 
And wear on battleship guns is tremendously variable.  I don't have my references on hand at the moment, but I do recall that the short-life winner were the guns of the Vittorio Veneto class, which only lasted 150 rounds.  The last battleships (Iowas) had an additive in their powder when recommissioned in the 80s which cut barrel wear so much that they started to have to worry about fatigue instead of wear.

Russian metallurgy is, in general, equal to western metallurgy in most regards. At least when it is at its best. Russian design philosophy is kinda different though, emphasising ease of repair over does not break.

And do you have a link for that iowa thing? I have a hard time believing that an additive is going to help with the pressure or metal grinding from the shell leaving the barrel. Or do you mean something that lessens the corrosive effect of the powder?
 

Offline bean

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Re: Weapon Reliability
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2016, 01:01:30 PM »
Russian metallurgy is, in general, equal to western metallurgy in most regards. At least when it is at its best. Russian design philosophy is kinda different though, emphasising ease of repair over does not break.
Yes, but the Russians are rarely at their best when doing such things.  It's not that they couldn't physically do it, it's more that they can't afford to.

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And do you have a link for that iowa thing? I have a hard time believing that an additive is going to help with the pressure or metal grinding from the shell leaving the barrel. Or do you mean something that lessens the corrosive effect of the powder?
Certainly. 
From http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_16-50_mk7.htm

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When first introduced into service during World War II, the barrel life was 290 ESR, the lower of the two values given above.  At that time, Smokeless Powder Diphenylamine (SPD) was the standard propellant.  HC rounds at 2,690 fps (820 mps) were 0.43 ESR and at 1,900 fps (579 mps) were 0.03 ESR.  The Target rounds at 1,800 fps (549 mps) were 0.08 ESR.  Following World War II, a cooler-burning formulation of SPD was adopted and this prolonged barrel life to about the second value given above [350 ESR].  In the 1967 and 1980s deployments, the use of "Swedish Additive" (titanium dioxide and wax) greatly reduced barrel wear.  It has been estimated that four AP shells fired using this additive approximated the wear of a single AP shell fired without the additive (0.26 ESR) and that HC rounds fired with the additive caused even less wear (0.11 ESR).  Later developments during the 1980s deployment led to putting a polyurethane jacket over the powder bags, which reduced the wear still further.  This jacket is simply a sheet of foam with a fabric border around the ends that is tied to the powder bag.  When the jacket burns during firing, a protective layer forms over the surface of the liner which greatly reduces gaseous erosion.  This wear reduction program was so successful that liner life can no longer be rated in terms of ESR, as it is no longer the limiting factor.  Instead, the liner life is now rated in terms of Fatigue Equivalent Rounds (FER), which is the mechanical fatigue life expressed in terms of the number of mechanical cycles.  The 16"/50 (40.6 cm) Mark 7 is now rated at having a liner life of 1,500 FER.
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Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Weapon Reliability
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2016, 01:16:47 AM »
From http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_16-50_mk7.htm

1500 FER while a big improvement still means they would have to switch out the barrel after 1500 AP rounds fired at full charge, or if they fired it constantly for 12.5 hours.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 01:19:03 AM by alex_brunius »
 

Offline QuakeIV

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Re: Weapon Reliability
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2016, 03:09:26 AM »
That seems fairly reliable to me.
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Weapon Reliability
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2016, 04:10:55 AM »
That seems fairly reliable to me.

While not directly comparable I doubt many civilian applications would consider switching something out after 12 hours use "fairly reliable".  ;)
 

Offline jem

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Re: Weapon Reliability
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2016, 05:10:12 AM »
Yes, but the Russians are rarely at their best when doing such things.  It's not that they couldn't physically do it, it's more that they can't afford to.
Certainly. 
From http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_16-50_mk7.htm

So exactly like western powers? Also thanks for that link.


And I think we should make a new topic if we want to continue since this is going offtopic at the speed of light.