Author Topic: Beam Weapons  (Read 319 times)

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Offline Nori

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Beam Weapons
« on: January 02, 2017, 10:32:32 PM »
Relatively new to the game, but I feel like I have a pretty decent handle on it.  Started off trying out beams and found out the hard way that you need really good defense against missiles. . .
3ish revisions later and my main combat problems are having units in the right place and enough ammo.

Anyway, I keep wanting/trying to build a primary beam ship/fleet but it just isn't doable.  You have to dedicate so much to engines and bring some hefty dedicated PD (I use separate PD specialized ships) all to have a sub 500k weapon (early mid to mid tech).

I get that not needing ammo and not being able to be shot down is powerful, but the short range just doesn't make sense in my opinion.

My suggestion is to greatly increase the range of all the beam weapons.  Or if that isn't wanted, could a option be added to the game to increase the range of beam weapons? I looked in the DB and it's possible to increase the range multiplier, but it seems like costs are hard coded.  So a few million range fire control costs 1000. . .
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Beam Weapons
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2017, 11:16:30 PM »
It's realistic, given the premises of the game.  The maximum range of beam weapons no matter what is 1.5 million kilometers, since that's the distance light can travel in 5 seconds.  Even there its arguably a stretch, since you have extremely maneuverable and fast starships that could randomly jink enough to throw off targeting solutions. 

 
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Offline 83athom

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Re: Beam Weapons
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2017, 09:27:35 AM »
Anyway, I keep wanting/trying to build a primary beam ship/fleet but it just isn't doable.  You have to dedicate so much to engines and bring some hefty dedicated PD (I use separate PD specialized ships) all to have a sub 500k weapon (early mid to mid tech).
Its quite doable, even this early in the game. Are you using a balance of all the beam weapons or are you ust using a main one/two? Also, could you post some of these designs that aren't "working"?

I get that not needing ammo and not being able to be shot down is powerful, but the short range just doesn't make sense in my opinion.
So the game shouldn't have any short range weapons and should only be a long range, slug fest?
My suggestion is to greatly increase the range of all the beam weapons.  Or if that isn't wanted, could a option be added to the game to increase the range of beam weapons? I looked in the DB and it's possible to increase the range multiplier, but it seems like costs are hard coded.  So a few million range fire control costs 1000. . .
This has been asked many, many times before and has been shot down as many times. A firecontrol that can reach the current max of 1.4m km already costs a few thousand resources. And there are reasons for beams to be the ranges they are. SO far this is just asking for a "I win" option that makes it so you can blast anyone from anyrange with a laser.
Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 
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Offline Nori

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Re: Beam Weapons
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2017, 10:17:49 AM »
Quote from: TheDeadlyShoe link=topic=9220.    msg99959#msg99959 date=1483420590
It's realistic, given the premises of the game.      The maximum range of beam weapons no matter what is 1.    5 million kilometers, since that's the distance light can travel in 5 seconds.      Even there its arguably a stretch, since you have extremely maneuverable and fast starships that could randomly jink enough to throw off targeting solutions.     
That is a interesting point that I hadn't thought of.     I suppose it's a gameplay vs realism discussion.   

Quote from: 83athom link=topic=9220.    msg99961#msg99961 date=1483457255
Its quite doable, even this early in the game.     Are you using a balance of all the beam weapons or are you ust using a main one/two? Also, could you post some of these designs that aren't "working"?
So the game shouldn't have any short range weapons and should only be a long range, slug fest?This has been asked many, many times before and has been shot down as many times.     A firecontrol that can reach the current max of 1.    4m km already costs a few thousand resources.     And there are reasons for beams to be the ranges they are.     SO far this is just asking for a "I win" option that makes it so you can blast anyone from anyrange with a laser.   
I didn't keep my designs, but I'll try to whip up a example with current tech.     I was mainly focusing on lasers, but I did try gauss on a fighter and my experience was that the 30k range meant that with a follow/move command they were rarely able to stay in range.   

For early/mid game beam ships do you end up using missile based PD or can you make effective enough Beam? I have gauss turrets on PD ships as a backup but the turrets weigh in at 30HS and I worry about their effectiveness vs missiles that go 35,000+.   -edit: there is the tech for tracking of missiles but does that apply to turret speed as well?

I don't have a issue with short range weapons, any single digit x increase in range would still be minuscule compared to what even a low tech missile can do.   
My apologies for asking a similar question.     I searched the forums and didn't see anything recent though I did figure others have asked in the past.   

If the AI gets the same range increase (again I'm not talking about making it 10m+ just into the low millions), how would that be a I win?
Your post is coming across as mildly hostile so apologies if I offended.     Just trying to see the reasoning behind beam ranges and if there are any options for people to be able to customize it.   
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 12:33:39 PM by Nori »
 

Online Steve Walmsley

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Re: Beam Weapons
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2017, 02:22:11 PM »
The problem with long-range beam weapons (beyond the light-speed limitations) is that they are effectively an "I win" button against any opponent you out-range (and vice versa).

Because beam weapons have no ammunition requirement and fire quickly, whoever had the longest range weapon would win any battle before the opponent could close the range. Add superior speed and the game is over.

You can defend against missiles and they have limited ammo so you still have a chance against longer-ranged, missile-armed opponents. Energy-weapon duels are intended to be short-ranged (sort of like fighters using cannon instead of missiles).

Play any campaigns and you will find you need a balanced fleet that includes energy-armed ships. Missiles are good for the first battle or two but it is difficult to maintain the necessary production and logistics to win a war with missiles alone. Missiles are tactically strong but strategically weak, while energy weapons are the reverse.

 
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Offline Nori

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Re: Beam Weapons
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2017, 03:55:17 PM »
@Steve Walmsley
That makes perfect sense and was the kind of response I needed to see.  Thanks for taking the time to explain the thought process behind it. 

Now that you said it I think I can relate to the missile logistic issue.  I only have 700 ordnance factories (not enough workers for more. . . ) and despite having a pretty benign war right now, I do not have enough ordnance to arm my modest (900k tons) fleet.  Then again I don't have enough fuel for all my new ships either, so maybe I just am building ships too fast. . .  Guess I should start building some beam ships and order my people to make babies faster. . .

Also, I wanted to sent a heartfelt thank you for making and sharing this game.  It is super fun and I am throughly enjoying it.  Very much looking forward to the C# version as well. 
 

 

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