Experimenting with higher techs

[TallTroll (OP)]

So, I think I'm getting the hang of working with low tech stuff, but I've also been playing with some higher items, to see how that all works. As a first approximation, I've come up with this (range bands were set to 100k km)

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Trafalgar class Light Cruiser    13,500 tons     1335 Crew     18612 BP      TCS 270  TH 1150  EM 3120
8518 km/s     Armour 10-50     Shields 104-300     Sensors 160/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 38     PPV 113.16
Maint Life 4.04 Years     MSP 7893    AFR 182%    IFR 2.5%    1YR 774    5YR 11606    Max Repair 2250 MSP

Solid Core Anti-matter Drive E2.6 (10)    Power 230    Fuel Use 26%    Signature 115    Armour 0    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 550,000 Litres    Range 282.0 billion km   (383 days at full power)
Sigma R300/16 Shields (13)   Total Fuel Cost  208 Litres per day

40cm C10 Extreme X-ray Laser (4)    Range 800,000km     TS: 12500 km/s     Power 40-10     RM 9    ROF 20        36 18 12 9 7 5 5 4 0 0
Triple Gauss Cannon R6-85 Turret (3x18)    Range 60,000km     TS: 32000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 6    ROF 5        0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S03 100-37500 (3)    Max Range: 200,000 km   TS: 37500 km/s     50 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S04 400-12500 H10 (4)    Max Range: 800,000 km   TS: 12500 km/s     88 75 62 50 38 25 12 0 0 0
Gas-core Anti-matter Power Plant Technology PB-1 (1)     Total Power Output 40    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor MR809-R160 (30%) (1)     GPS 25600     Range 809.5m km    Resolution 160
PD Sensor MR32-R1 (10%) (1)     GPS 80     Range 32.0m km    Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH4-160 (30%) (1)     Sensitivity 160     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  160m km

Compact ECCM-6 (4)         ECM 60

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
1) Assumed fleet speed of 8500 km/s. Actually, I suspect fleet speed might be a bit lower than that, more like 7000 km/s, but this needs a bit more to close with hostiles, as it needs to get within 400k km to do much of anything

2) This ship is individually horribly vunerable to missiles. The Gauss turrets are adequate for final fire PD, mopping up remnants of salvoes, but it needs to be paired with AMM platforms. Hence the relatively overbuilt PD sensor, I think you could use this to spot incoming ASMs, and have small FFEs with reasonable AMM volleys provide AMM coverage out to 3 / 4 / 5m km. Would a couple of light laser turrets be a good idea, to provide more layered PD coverage?

3) If I understand FC correctly, the 40cm lasers will have an actual tracking speed equal to the ships max speed, 8518 km/s, not the nominal 12500 km/s listed for the weapon / FC. That could be fixed by turreting the lasers. I don't really want to use 40cm lasers for PD, but it would make them much better at killing FACs / fighters

4) The active search sensor is a bit weak, not really a deep search, but adequate to have on whilst tooling around unconquered space. It'll stop anything big sneaking up on me, without giving it a huge EM signature

5) The thermal sensor is supposed to allow this ship and its' group to run silent on sensors, but still have some detection ability, so they can't be totally bushwhacked. I don't really have a good feel for how thermal sensor figures "work" though, so I have no clue whether that is too much, too little or just right

6) I remembered to include an ECCM unit for each laser / FC combo, at least. The Gauss turrets, I'm not worried about, they are only likely to be shooting at missiles, or small craft without room for much EW equipment. I'm pretty sure all 3 would be able to kill just about any conceivable FAC class, although I suspect it'd be vunerable to fighter swarms

7) I don't really have a good feel for shields either. I think 100 ish points backed up with 10-deep armour would allow it to soak up a few ASM leakers on its' run in to beam range, and take hits from comparably sized beam weapons without too much internal damage, but again, I don't have a good instinctive feel for the likely damage output of its opponents

Anything else?

[Thiosk]

I'm gonna go ahead and say that 8500 for Gas Core antimatter is preeeeety sllooooow.

In a game where I've gotten up to the first level of antimatter, my beam ships were moving at 16,000 km/s.

[Brian Neumann]

2.)  I would only put the light laser turrets on ships without the gauss cannon.  Maybe a frigate or destroyer with 15cm lasers.  They would give it a decent range and a 5 second cycle time to deal with missiles, in addition it would help to take down shields of enemy ships when you get in closer which would allow the 40cm lasers to be more effective in actually damaging enemy ships.

3.)  Not correct.  The slowest your fire control can be is the base tracking speed.  If the ship speed is higher than that then you can take advantage of it for non turreted weapons if your tracking speed is up to the task.  In this ship you would have a tracking speed of 12500, and fully turreted x4 tracking speed fire control could handle up pto 50000km/s

5.)  

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Thermal Sensor TH4-160 (30%) (1)     Sensitivity 160     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  160m km  on your ship this means you can detect a target with a thermal strength of 1000 at 160 million km.  As a reference for you your ship has a thermal signature of 1150.  (Top row of ship description the TH # is your thermal signature).

Brian

[Erik L]

7 - If you were facing down an identical ship at point blank range, one salvo (assuming all hit) of the 40cm lasers will do 36 x 4 damage. Shields gone, armor penetrated and 30 pts of internal damage.

Obviously that's a best case scenario. At extended ranges the shields will hold up longer and regenerate 1.7 pts per 5 second increment. If you are facing missiles at long ranges, with sufficient PD, you could in theory regenerate any damage that leaks through the PD screen.

[TallTroll (OP)]

Right, so I should up the speed for sure

2) So, probably a mixed PD escort group with a couple of AMM platforms and a couple of light laser turret equipped hulls for a layered PD area, and additional close in firepower?

3) Right, so, I should probably look to up the ships speed to more like 20k km/s, and ensure the FC tracking speed keeps up (not going to turret the 40cm lasers for now)?

5) Right, so unless I'm up against someone very into thermal reduction, that thermal sensor would likely do the job I want?

7) The defensive belt will handle a few leakers, as intended then. I'd have to tune the PD escort group to handle the expected volume of incoming missile fire, but then I'd have to do that anyway

Soooo... Mk2

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Trafalgar Mk2 class Light Cruiser    25,850 tons     2452 Crew     25467 BP      TCS 517  TH 5175  EM 3120
20019 km/s     Armour 10-77     Shields 104-300     Sensors 160/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 43     PPV 113.16
Maint Life 3.17 Years     MSP 9004    AFR 411%    IFR 5.7%    1YR 1349    5YR 20242    Max Repair 2250 MSP

Solid Core Anti-matter Drive E2.6 (45)    Power 230    Fuel Use 26%    Signature 115    Armour 0    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 2,750,000 Litres    Range 736.5 billion km   (425 days at full power)
Sigma R300/16 Shields (13)   Total Fuel Cost  208 Litres per day

40cm C10 Extreme X-ray Laser (4)    Range 800,000km     TS: 20019 km/s     Power 40-10     RM 9    ROF 20        36 18 12 9 7 5 5 4 0 0
Triple Gauss Cannon R6-85 Turret (3x18)    Range 60,000km     TS: 32000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 6    ROF 5        0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S03 100-37500 (3)    Max Range: 200,000 km   TS: 37500 km/s     50 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S06 400-18750 H30 (4)    Max Range: 800,000 km   TS: 18750 km/s     88 75 62 50 38 25 12 0 0 0
Gas-core Anti-matter Power Plant Technology PB-1 (1)     Total Power Output 40    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor MR809-R160 (30%) (1)     GPS 25600     Range 809.5m km    Resolution 160
PD Sensor MR32-R1 (10%) (1)     GPS 80     Range 32.0m km    Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH4-160 (30%) (1)     Sensitivity 160     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  160m km

Compact ECCM-6 (4)         ECM 60

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
It's twice the size, but muich faster

[Marthnn]

A good way to evaluate the speed of a ship is to look at the % size used by engines, regardless of tech level. Less than 10% size in engine is slow, while over 50% is very fast (at least in my opinion). I'd guess a ship of the line would need about 25% in engines, more for beam ships, less for carriers. Note that every ship with the same engine type and the same % size used by engines will go at the same speed.

[TallTroll (OP)]

The Mk2 comes in at 45.9%, which I'm fairly happy with for a beam fighter. Without any specific opposition to measure it against, it's hard to say if any given speed is "enough", but the 25% thing seems a sensible baseline to work with across all classes

[xeryon]

I think you need to reclassify this ship:  "Light Cruiser" is a little misleading at 25,000 tons 

[Steve Walmsley]

I think you need to reclassify this ship:  "Light Cruiser" is a little misleading at 25,000 tons 

Well, the new US Zumwalt class "destroyers" are 15,000 tons (the 1906 HMS Dreadnought was 18,000 tons) so 25,000 for a light cruiser doesn't seem that bad

Steve

[TallTroll (OP)]

Wet Navy designations were always related to weight of armament, so although the Mk2 has around twice the displacement, it's still only "light". I also think I should build up the PD sensor more, on reflection

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Regarding speed - an excellent rule of thumb for military speed is that the minimum should be about 1 drive per 1000 tons (or 25% drives.)  NPR designs tend to run about 33% in my experience. I run about 30% lately. (12 drives on a 10,000 ton ship/7 on a 6,000 ton ship.)

*The fuel capacity is completely unnecessary. 750bn km is the range of my (Magneto-plasma) long range survey ships using commercial drives. ^_^

*If you intend this to be sensor platform/flagship stick an EM sensor in there. EM sensors are necessary to detect enemy active sensors... and more critically their resolution and range. 

*If at all possible try to find room for more shielding. 

[TallTroll (OP)]

>> NPR designs tend to run about 33% in my experience

This is about 45%, so it should have the edge in speed to catch similar or lower tech opponents

>> The fuel capacity is completely unnecessary.

Yeah, hadn't really noticed how big that was getting. Since this would mostly operate with a fleet, I can reduce the fuel load quite a bit, but I don't think I want to build an oiler fast enough to keep up with it, so it needs to keep some fuel on hand. I've reduced the Mk3 to about 2 months at full speed. I don't know how reducing speed reduces fuel usage, but if it's better than linear, it might have a decent patrol range. It'd do for picketing a JP against small scale raids, for instance. It'd be nice to have a reserve to run the shields too, in case it's necessary to keep them on for extended periods

>> EM sensors are necessary to detect enemy active sensors... and more critically their resolution and range. 

Nice, I didn't know that. Whilst this ship isn't really meant to be a "proper" flagship, it should be capable of independent operations, so I've given it an smallish passive EM sensor, the same as the thermal basically

>> If at all possible try to find room for more shielding

I've added one. It brings the weight up 50 tons, and the speed is now just under 20km/s, so I don't want to add more

The Mk3 :

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Trafalgar Mk3 class Light Cruiser    25,900 tons     2548 Crew     29450 BP      TCS 518  TH 5175  EM 3360
19980 km/s     Armour 10-77     Shields 112-300     Sensors 160/160/0/0     Damage Control Rating 43     PPV 113.16
Maint Life 3.24 Years     MSP 10239    AFR 412%    IFR 5.7%    1YR 1471    5YR 22066    Max Repair 2250 MSP

Solid Core Anti-matter Drive E2.6 (45)    Power 230    Fuel Use 26%    Signature 115    Armour 0    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 520,000 Litres    Range 139.0 billion km   (80 days at full power)
Sigma R300/16 Shields (14)   Total Fuel Cost  224 Litres per day

40cm C10 Extreme X-ray Laser (4)    Range 800,000km     TS: 19980 km/s     Power 40-10     RM 9    ROF 20        40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 36
Triple Gauss Cannon R6-85 Turret (3x18)    Range 60,000km     TS: 32000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 6    ROF 5        1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S03 100-37500 (3)    Max Range: 200,000 km   TS: 37500 km/s     95 90 85 80 75 70 65 60 55 50
Fire Control S06 400-18750 H30 (4)    Max Range: 800,000 km   TS: 18750 km/s     99 98 96 95 94 92 91 90 89 88
Gas-core Anti-matter Power Plant Technology PB-1 (1)     Total Power Output 40    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor MR809-R160 (30%) (1)     GPS 25600     Range 809.5m km    Resolution 160
PD Sensor MR192-R1 (10%) (1)     GPS 480     Range 192.0m km    Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH4-160 (30%) (1)     Sensitivity 160     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  160m km
EM Detection Sensor EM4-160 (30%) (10)     Sensitivity 160     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  160m km

Compact ECCM-6 (4)         ECM 60

[Mini]

You could probably switch two or three of the longer ranged fire controls for shields. Actually, definitely do that, if you want all of your lasers to be firing at different targets then you can stagger their shots, having one firing every 5 seconds, since they take 20 seconds to recharge.