Author Topic: Involved Analysis of Heat Death  (Read 4989 times)

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Offline Theodidactus (OP)

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Involved Analysis of Heat Death
« on: October 29, 2014, 12:20:18 PM »
I'm interested in this question (I THINK this is the right place on the forum for it)
We all know the game starts having problems as gameplay goes along...but in what sequence? when does it become unplayable? How long can a "game of aurora" theoretically last.

When I started my latest campaign I knew I wanted something with a really involved sweep of history and worldbuilding...it's quite extensive and I keep a notebook. I have been playing my current campaign for about 18 real-life months now. Also, I play often. I leave aurora running through gameplay cycles whenever I'm doing research or watching TV, often when I'm reading as well...so probably an average of an hour a day.

My game, with a conventional start, is in its 132nd year of play, I've discovered hundreds of systems, 2 large living alien civilizations, wrecks indicative of a 3rd, precursors, star swarms, and ruins in abundance. There are probably many civilizations I haven't discovered as well. Humanity controls 4 worlds with populations in the billions, more than a dozen outlying colonies with populations in the hundreds of millions, and has even spread to 2 independent colonies outside of controlled space. Our civilian lines are everywhere. I'm sure this can't be the biggest and longest-running game of aurora but it's gotta be up there.

what I'm wondering is: how long can I play? what's the longest anyone has done it? at some point, everything will come apart...but when and how?

Here's what I'm seeing roughly in the order it started to become a problem

#1: slowdown: everyone knows this is bad. Slowdown wasn't a problem for the first 50 years of my game, because I was confined to the sol system. As I spread out, it increased sharply, then leveled out. I've noticed no real change in slowdown since 2130 or so. I'm certain it's increased, but I think the discovery of alien civilizations doesn't slow the game as much as a well run human player will...the proliferation of commercial shipping in this area of the galaxy is mostly my doing. I'm keeping an eye on this.

#2: Interruption: interruption grows more and more frequent, the result of catastrophic NPR battles in the depths of space that are happening with alarming frequency. This is currently just annoying but I can forsee a time decades from now where it would make the game unplayable.

#3: error proliferation: every so often, the game drops something it shouldn't, and errors appear. These have a tendency to stick around. As the game goes on, I see more and more problems with creating teams and recovering survivors. I keep meticulous backups, but even this is not a permanent solution. eventually, everything will break in a manner I won't immediately notice.

#4: AI Incompetence: The AI is not (cannot) be run in a sustainable way...this would require capabilities far beyond what a normal programmer could program. As it stands, AI economies invariably crash due to a mineral shortage or incurring massive debt. I think I'm seeing far less activity in the systems of the alien race I'm allied with...I think the poor guy's run out of minerals to build new ships or something. Also, the AI is presumably not as good as a human player at picking up the pieces after suffering a setback. As aformentioned, I'm seeing frequent interruptions to suggest that someone, somewhere, is getting in a HUGE fight. When I see these interrupts, I can't help but think that every setback the AI suffers is near-permanent, and that I'm not gonna find anything out there but wrecks.

#5: AI (Tech) incompetence: When AI's are created, their tech far exceeds that of the player, we know this. However, the AI is fairly dumb and can't compete with even a low-level player at managing an economy or the research that comes with it. My biggest rivals in interstellar dominance have always been technologically inferior to me (though much more numerous) however, I've always been encouraged by, and wary of, other civilizations that have spawned out there in the blackness. Increasingly though I fear that by the time I reach these new rivals, I'll be able to run circles around their plasma fleets with my shiny new antimatter engines.

#6: Player incompetence: here's a fun one. As I continue to play, my space empire becomes increasingly unmanageable. You'd think that as time went on you'd solve problems like sporadic mineral shortages and a lack of safe maintenance berths for spacecraft...but that's not true. Every new mining world I develop requires more attention, more protection, et cetera. My spacecraft become ever bigger and require ever-more-resources (especially fuel). It takes my craft nearly a month to reach the borders of protected space. At a certain point, I can see myself sorta tearing my hair out that I forgot to end task force training for a detachment of missile cruisers around some distant world half-a-decade ago, and they've fallen apart..and I just give up.

Initial questions:

- what's the longest or largest game anyone has played? What issues did you encounter?

- the typical strategy when making hostile contact in this game is to blow it out of the sky and invade it, immediately. For various RP reasons i did not do that. Has anyone had a rivalry with an alien civilizations over decades and decades of time? How did it go?

- How long is an NPR "viable". I'm pretty sure there's at least one mighty space empire out there that spawned in the 2130s that I still haven't discovered in 2152. Will I ever see them?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 12:29:56 PM by Theodidactus »
My Theodidactus, now I see that you are excessively simple of mind and more gullible than most. The Crystal Sphere you seek cannot be found in nature, look about you...wander the whole cosmos, and you will find nothing but the clear sweet breezes of the great ethereal ocean enclosed not by any bound
 

Offline GreatTuna

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Re: Involved Analysis of Heat Death
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2014, 04:15:04 PM »
1. My longest game is 111 years old. 111 discovered (by me) systems, 3 civilizations annexed (one was saved by that because their homeworld was glassed by Invaders), etc., etc. I dropped it because of two reasons: new version, and "someone spotted by someone, let's stop the clock". 10 NPRs, three types of spoilers and me don't go very well.

2. I usually negotiate for friendly status (before invading), the NPR surveys every system they can reach. Cue slowdown, and new NPRs (more slowdown), ruins (more interrupts), star swarms (even more interrupts)...
As for hostilities, they are usually... doing nothing, but sometimes they trigger interrupt.

3. NPR is always viable unless someone glasses their worlds and destroys their ships.

I've heard about people who have done 170-yr runs. I think it's possible to go even further, if you manage to manage NPRs.

About my experience:

#1 is actually one of the least disturbing of the problems: my empire grows larger, I need more time to maintain it, my computer needs more time to run it. It's fair.

#2 is the most annoying, especially the "00:01:00 potential something interrupt" when one ship tries to catch another ship but isn't able to (and I'll just say it's not epic at all). It's terrible experience.

#3 As of current game, errors don't bother me much. That's weird because they were ruining my games sometimes in previous versions.

#4: let me just copy the logs:
Quote
14th May 2057 14:29:01,Abadan,Abadan,Mineral Shortage (Tritanium) in Production of Mougo Anti-missile Missile at Abadan Prime
14th May 2057 14:29:01,Yousif,Yousif,Mineral Shortage (Gallicite) in Production of Bandersnatch Anti-missile Missile at Yousif Prime
14th May 2057 14:29:01,Yousif,Yousif,Mineral Shortage (Duranium) in Production of Convert Mine to Automated at Yousif Prime
14th May 2057 14:29:01,PortLouis,Unknown,Racial Wealth is negative. Production will be reduced accordingly until the debt is repaid.
14th May 2057 14:29:01,Sekhemkare,Unknown,Racial Wealth is negative. Production will be reduced accordingly until the debt is repaid.
14th May 2057 14:29:01,Grand Base,Unknown,Racial Wealth is negative. Production will be reduced accordingly until the debt is repaid.
When I captured Aargonar homeworld, I noticed one thing, called planetary missile stockpile. Who in their right mind can build 550000 AMMs?

#5: while they steal get everything they can from me:
Quote
14th May 2057 14:29:01,ZemSoy,Chi(1) Orionis,25 inactive Research Labs on Equation
14th May 2057 14:29:01,ZemSoy,S.W. Burnham 543,A team on S.W. Burnham 543-A III led by Louis Stokes has completed research into Microwave Focusing Technology 5
14th May 2057 14:29:01,Aargonar,Unknown,Information on Microwave Focusing Technology 5 has been provided to us by HIP 21932 Aliens #207 <= hey, it's me!
14th May 2057 14:29:01,Abadan,Unknown,Information on Microwave Focusing Technology 5 has been provided to us by Abadan Aliens #202
14th May 2057 14:29:01,Yousif,Unknown,Information on Microwave Focusing Technology 5 has been provided to us by Yousif Aliens #202
14th May 2057 14:29:01,PortLouis,Unknown,Information on Microwave Focusing Technology 3 has been provided to us by Gliese 176 Aliens #214
14th May 2057 14:29:01,Aargonar,Unknown,Information on Microwave Focusing Technology 3 has been provided to us by Sol Aliens #222
14th May 2057 14:29:01,Abadan,Unknown,Information on Microwave Focusing Technology 3 has been provided to us by Abadan Aliens #202
14th May 2057 14:29:01,Yousif,Unknown,Information on Microwave Focusing Technology 3 has been provided to us by Yousif Aliens #202
14th May 2057 14:29:01,Vorkuta,Unknown,Information on Microwave Focusing Technology 3 has been provided to us by Vorkuta Aliens #214
14th May 2057 14:29:01,Muscida,Unknown,Information on Microwave Focusing Technology 3 has been provided to us by Muscida Aliens #202
14th May 2057 14:29:01,Vorkuta,Unknown,Information on Microwave Focusing Technology 5 has been provided to us by Vorkuta Aliens #214
14th May 2057 14:29:01,Canal,Unknown,Information on Microwave Focusing Technology 3 has been provided to us by Canal Aliens #214
14th May 2057 14:29:01,Muscida,Unknown,Information on Microwave Focusing Technology 5 has been provided to us by Muscida Aliens #202
14th May 2057 14:29:01,PortLouis,Unknown,Information on Microwave Focusing Technology 5 has been provided to us by PortLouis Aliens #215
14th May 2057 14:29:01,Sekhemkare,Unknown,Information on Microwave Focusing Technology 3 has been provided to us by Sekhemkare Aliens #222
14th May 2057 14:29:01,Grand Base,Unknown,Information on Microwave Focusing Technology 3 has been provided to us by Grand Base Aliens #222
they don't appear to develop\use new ship designs. Aargonar, for example, was still using Ion-powered ships, when I was flying around with Gas Core AM Engines.
Invasion becomes boring and NPRs look helpless after that.

#6 affects me the least: I'm starting to read huge logs and spend most of the time giving orders instead of advancing time. Doesn't make game any worse because I like to give orders.  :D

I could try a conventional longrun just to see how far can I get.
 

Offline Theodidactus (OP)

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Re: Involved Analysis of Heat Death
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2014, 04:31:12 PM »
At present I'm in the early fusion era. My tech progress has been deliberately slowed for various RP reasons...basically, in my universe it makes sense that human progress is inefficient and unstable. I have not, in this game or any other, ran into an alien species that gave me more than a passing concern. Currently it's fun playing a superpower and I don't mind that alien starfleets of my greatest rival can be destroyed with a single launch order. However, I'm hoping that enemies are waiting somewhere out there for me that will present a challenge intermediate between my current rivals and the invaders. I might actually just try to hard-spawn some by cranking the difficulty up to 300% and clicking "generate NPR" a few times. I used to be afraid this would present existentially threatening slowdown problems, but i'm seeing people that are able to play games with 10 or more NPRs...so it should be fine.

I want this game to last another real-life year, probably 100 more in-game years. Should be doable with patience.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 04:33:55 PM by Theodidactus »
My Theodidactus, now I see that you are excessively simple of mind and more gullible than most. The Crystal Sphere you seek cannot be found in nature, look about you...wander the whole cosmos, and you will find nothing but the clear sweet breezes of the great ethereal ocean enclosed not by any bound
 

Offline JOKER

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Re: Involved Analysis of Heat Death
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2014, 06:43:19 AM »
My games usually have 20 to 25 systems, 1 high difficulty NPR. The last war lasted 18 months, ended in the total destruction of their homeworld.
 

Offline Haji

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Re: Involved Analysis of Heat Death
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2014, 10:31:46 AM »
#5: AI (Tech) incompetence: When AI's are created, their tech far exceeds that of the player, we know this. However, the AI is fairly dumb and can't compete with even a low-level player at managing an economy or the research that comes with it. My biggest rivals in interstellar dominance have always been technologically inferior to me (though much more numerous) however, I've always been encouraged by, and wary of, other civilizations that have spawned out there in the blackness. Increasingly though I fear that by the time I reach these new rivals, I'll be able to run circles around their plasma fleets with my shiny new antimatter engines.

Since your game is over eighteen months long I'm going to assume that it's one of the earlier versions, not 6.4x. As it happens there was a bug in AI that made it suspend research if it was generating a negative wealth. This has been dealt with in the newest version by making AI research fee (in terms of wealth). There were other tweaks to the AI as well, such as giving it the ability to terraform planets, so your points number 4 and 5 may no longer be valid. I say may because I haven't had any long games with active AIs in 6.4 yet.
 

Offline iceball3

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Re: Involved Analysis of Heat Death
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2015, 08:20:58 AM »
Playing 6.4x, you CAN still come across low tech procedurally spawned empires. I thought my fleet was bad, but then i end up getting caught in conflict with an AI... who sends only one ship is a single missile craft that slings 6 missile salvos at under 5000 km/s. Did i mention it's only active sensors were too big to see my fast attack craft?
And here i thought including fast attack craft in my military sortie would have not much use beyond a last resort.
 

Offline SteelChicken

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Re: Involved Analysis of Heat Death
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2015, 08:43:02 AM »
"When AI's are created, their tech far exceeds that of the player, we know this."

I have never seen this.   In general I create two NPR's to start with and even with bonus's they quickly fall behind.  New NPRs are supposed to be created on discovery of likely worlds, correct?   The few I see seem to be crippled for whatever reason in every game.   Any ideas on how I can sort this out?
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Involved Analysis of Heat Death
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2015, 02:32:39 AM »
I would just say that you're unlucky. It's possible to discover dozens of habitable worlds without encountering an NPR. It's possible for those NPRs to be small and utterly insignificant. But it's also possible to meet an NPR right next door to Sol and it's strong enough to whoop your ass.

Unfortunately, as far as I know, there's nothing you can do to boost an NPR, as you cannot give them new techs or industry through SM.
 

Offline MarcAFK

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Re: Involved Analysis of Heat Death
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2015, 07:52:01 AM »
I would just say that you're unlucky. It's possible to discover dozens of habitable worlds without encountering an NPR. It's possible for those NPRs to be small and utterly insignificant. But it's also possible to meet an NPR right next door to Sol and it's strong enough to whoop your ass.

Unfortunately, as far as I know, there's nothing you can do to boost an NPR, as you cannot give them new techs or industry through SM.
Give them some high tech wrecks and maybe dump resources onto one of their planets somehow? I'm tempted to say mass driver but er, no.
" Why is this godforsaken hellhole worth dying for? "
". . .  We know nothing about them, their language, their history or what they look like.  But we can assume this.  They stand for everything we don't stand for.  Also they told me you guys look like dorks. "
"Stop exploding, you cowards.  "
 

Offline linkxsc

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Re: Involved Analysis of Heat Death
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2015, 12:12:54 PM »
You can boost the accessability of the minerals on their worlds can you not? Though they themselves would need to exploit that. Could also terraform a few worlds for them nearby. High tech wrecks is also another option, but requires you to kill either your own ships or anothers ships nearby (which because theyd be watching, would probably plummet their diplomatic opinion of you)

 

Offline 83athom

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Re: Involved Analysis of Heat Death
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2015, 01:24:29 PM »
Give them some high tech wrecks and maybe dump resources onto one of their planets somehow? I'm tempted to say mass driver but er, no.
Yah, I know what you mean. Given how "smart" the AI currently is, they would likely remove their mass drivers from their planet to another due to the influx of materials (because they'll put more in the queue to set up more mines elsewhere).
Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 

Offline MarcAFK

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Re: Involved Analysis of Heat Death
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2015, 08:57:25 PM »
You can only target your own colonies with mass drivers, so they can't even be used offensively :(
" Why is this godforsaken hellhole worth dying for? "
". . .  We know nothing about them, their language, their history or what they look like.  But we can assume this.  They stand for everything we don't stand for.  Also they told me you guys look like dorks. "
"Stop exploding, you cowards.  "
 

Offline 83athom

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Re: Involved Analysis of Heat Death
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2015, 12:19:07 AM »
You can only target your own colonies with mass drivers, so they can't even be used offensively :(
There's a button in f9 that says "create colony" that creates a colony on the selected colony. Do that, then fire away.
Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 

Offline JacenHan

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Re: Involved Analysis of Heat Death
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2015, 12:56:02 AM »
The target also needs a mass driver, so you'll need to be able to transport a mass driver to the planet in question, which implies that you could just as easily invade with ground troops or bombard it from orbit.
 

Offline MarcAFK

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Re: Involved Analysis of Heat Death
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2015, 02:43:35 AM »
There's a button in f9 that says "create colony" that creates a colony on the selected colony. Do that, then fire away.
I was under the impression that your colonies were separated from the other colonies on the planet for various purposes, for targeting missiles and ground troops, targeting mineral packets, etc. So if I send minerals to my own colony they literally land at my colony, if I destroy the mass driver they would bombard my colony but not the enemies on the same body, if I delete my colony what happens? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't go to the enemies colony, and I'm sure I would get an error message for them attempting to go to a non-existent colony.
" Why is this godforsaken hellhole worth dying for? "
". . .  We know nothing about them, their language, their history or what they look like.  But we can assume this.  They stand for everything we don't stand for.  Also they told me you guys look like dorks. "
"Stop exploding, you cowards.  "