Does the player "compete" with Civilians?

[Jarhead0331 (OP)]

I understand that civilians are useful for moving populations and contributing to the net wealth of your imperial economy through taxes, financial centers, etc. However, my question is about competition. Are civilians competing with your empire for resources? In other words...lets say I have a shortage of a mineral, but there is a large deposit of it located on Pluto. The civilian sector sets up a mining operation there before I am able to create a colony of my own.

In this scenario, I know I am able to tax their mining operation. I also know I am able to purchase minerals from them. However, if I still set up my own mining colony, will we be competing over the finite mineral deposit. Do I benefit in anyway by mining it directly, or is it just more cost effective to tax and buy? Fundamentally, when, if ever, is it a good idea to restrict civilian access to certain worlds/moons/asteroids, etc.?

Thanks.

[Zincat]

I understand that civilians are useful for moving populations and contributing to the net wealth of your imperial economy through taxes, financial centers, etc. However, my question is about competition. Are civilians competing with your empire for resources? In other words...lets say I have a shortage of a mineral, but there is a large deposit of it located on Pluto. The civilian sector sets up a mining operation there before I am able to create a colony of my own.

In this scenario, I know I am able to tax their mining operation. I also know I am able to purchase minerals from them. However, if I still set up my own mining colony, will we be competing over the finite mineral deposit. Do I benefit in anyway by mining it directly, or is it just more cost effective to tax and buy? Fundamentally, when, if ever, is it a good idea to restrict civilian access to certain worlds/moons/asteroids, etc.?

Thanks.

Early game, civilian mining colonies are nice, so it's quite useful to buy from them if you can afford it. Later, they become a nuisance of sort, because you might be short on cash and/or you'd prefer to mine yourself. And I am loathe to tax them, it's still minerals which I will lose and sometimes there are no ready deposits to exploit

In those cases... I just "close their operations". Read: delete the colony. Or at least I did in vb6, still did not have to do this in c# aurora

[Pedroig]

Fundamentally the only resource that is an absolute is Sorium from Gas Giants, since it doesn't involve colonies at all, so you never want Civilians messing with it.  (Which is why No Civilian Harvesters is a game option)

Otherwise it gets into a cost/benefit calculation.  How much is your wealth worth at any given point and time versus how much are the minerals worth at any given time.  What is the opportunity cost of you dedicating your limited mining capacity to a certain colony/mineral versus others.  What is the ROI for any of those.  What is the "value" of the colony's minerals to begin with versus how much will it cost to buy (which is not based on mineral production, but rather civilian "investment" in the colony)

[Jarhead0331 (OP)]

So, in other words, yes, the player is competing with civilians for resources...however, whether necessary resources are acquired through trade, or direct mining operations is a subjective cost/benefit analysis based upon the current economic circumstances?  There is no general rule of thumb or best practice strategy overall.

[skoormit]

I understand that civilians are useful for moving populations and contributing to the net wealth of your imperial economy through taxes, financial centers, etc. However, my question is about competition. Are civilians competing with your empire for resources? In other words...lets say I have a shortage of a mineral, but there is a large deposit of it located on Pluto. The civilian sector sets up a mining operation there before I am able to create a colony of my own.

In this scenario, I know I am able to tax their mining operation. I also know I am able to purchase minerals from them. However, if I still set up my own mining colony, will we be competing over the finite mineral deposit. Do I benefit in anyway by mining it directly, or is it just more cost effective to tax and buy? Fundamentally, when, if ever, is it a good idea to restrict civilian access to certain worlds/moons/asteroids, etc.?

Thanks.

Buying minerals from civvies is VERY expensive compared to the cost of implementing equivalent mining infrastructure.
One civ mining complex is equivalent to 10 mines.
The cost of purchasing the minerals is 375 wealth per yer (the purchase price of 250 plus the lost tax of 125).
The construction cost of 10 auto mines is 2400 wealth and 2400 corundium.
That means that if you buy minerals from a civvy for 7 years, you have spent more wealth than you would have by building the equivalent auto mines.
And if you had built the auto mines, you would be getting the minerals for free, forever (that is, until they run dry).

That said, building and deploying your own auto mines incurs some overhead cost.
You have to haul the mines out there.
You have to haul the minerals back (or build and deploy mass drivers).

So it really comes down to how much that overhead cost is (based on your infrastructure, tech, and the distances involved) and how much you can afford the up-front cost of corundium to build your own mines.

When I start a new game, I like to instantly put a colony on any orbital mining prospect with significant duranium or corundium, because I plan to make orbital mining platforms early and I don't want civvies depleting the easiest sources of those needed minerals.
The civvies make due with the leftovers. They seem to do okay.

[Jarhead0331 (OP)]

When I start a new game, I like to instantly put a colony on any orbital mining prospect with significant duranium or corundium, because I plan to make orbital mining platforms early and I don't want civvies depleting the easiest sources of those needed minerals.
The civvies make due with the leftovers. They seem to do okay.

Good tip. Thanks.

[Geezer]

Can you put your own colony on a body that has a civilian colony?  I've seen both a yes and a no answer to this question.

[smoelf]

Can you put your own colony on a body that has a civilian colony?  I've seen both a yes and a no answer to this question.

I just tested it, and you can't do it in the sense of having your 'own' colony in addition to the civilian colony, but you can claim the civilian colony and use it as your own. It is still part of your empire, so you can just start shipping infrastructure and colonists to it and get going. Even rename it, if you want to.

[Garfunkel]

Early game civilians can be a nuisance but once you've expanded a little, and unless you've been really unlucky, there will be more than enough minerals and gas giant sorium to go around. So the competition is only relevant - IMHO - in the very early game part and even then, taxing them will bring in useful wealth.

[smoelf]

In my experience, I have usually had more than enough wealth to let the civilian mining complexes (CMC) go nuts and just buy their resources. That saves me a lot of trouble having to build mines and ship them out. I even go as far as to avoid creating colonies on potential civilian mining colonies until the first CMC has been established.

I haven't seen if this has been changed, but in VB6 once you created a colony on any planetary body, it was forever banned from CMC's. But if a CMC had been established, you could make it into a normal colony just fine, and the civilians would keep making CMC's. I guess it is a nice way to control the civilian economy, but it is a bit of a puzzle to colonize new systems without highjacking the nice mining spots from the civilians.

[Geezer]

Can you put your own colony on a body that has a civilian colony?  I've seen both a yes and a no answer to this question.

I just tested it, and you can't do it in the sense of having your 'own' colony in addition to the civilian colony, but you can claim the civilian colony and use it as your own. It is still part of your empire, so you can just start shipping infrastructure and colonists to it and get going. Even rename it, if you want to.

Thanks.  I'm already shipping infrastructure to the civilian colony on Io so maybe that is just a waste?  Will have to figure out how to claim it I guess.

[smoelf]

Thanks.  I'm already shipping infrastructure to the civilian colony on Io so maybe that is just a waste?  Will have to figure out how to claim it I guess.

Well, there is no 'claim' button as such. What I mean is exactly what you are doing. Just treat it like your own colony with some 'extra' automated mines on it in the form of CMC's, where you can either get some extra wealth or extra minerals. Whether or not it is a waste depends on your goals. If Io has enough minerals that you would want to put a population there and use the cheaper regular mines, then it doesn't sound like a waste at all. There could also be other reasons why you would want a population on a civilian mining colony. If you are fine with just purchasing the minerals and letting the civilians build up their mining complexes, then you might better off colonizing some other moon or planet, but that is all a strategic decision dependent on what your Sol System looks like and what your empire's goals are.

[Geezer]

Got it, thanks.  And apologies to Jarhead for hijacking your thread. 

[Gabethebaldandbold]

I find in my game the the hard part is geting the civilians to colonize things that are actually any good. I have the weatlh, I made sure to have way more finantial centers than any VB6 player would find sane. there are hundreds of CMC's in sol alone. not a single one of them mines corundium. ITS INFURIATING!!!!!
anyway, you probably have more than enough resources to make orbital habitats to increase your worker population in the galaxy, and the finantial centers to inrease your wealth to levels never before seen. CMC's should not be a problemm if you are prepared to deal with them. whether they are a competitor or a tool, depends on how prepared you are to deal with them.

[Father Tim]

I understand that civilians are useful for moving populations and contributing to the net wealth of your imperial economy through taxes, financial centers, etc. However, my question is about competition. Are civilians competing with your empire for resources? In other words...lets say I have a shortage of a mineral, but there is a large deposit of it located on Pluto. The civilian sector sets up a mining operation there before I am able to create a colony of my own.

In this scenario, I know I am able to tax their mining operation. I also know I am able to purchase minerals from them. However, if I still set up my own mining colony, will we be competing over the finite mineral deposit. Do I benefit in anyway by mining it directly, or is it just more cost effective to tax and buy? Fundamentally, when, if ever, is it a good idea to restrict civilian access to certain worlds/moons/asteroids, etc.?

Thanks.

Yes.

Civilian Mining Complexes are theft.  They remove existing minerals from the body, and if you don't buy them immediately (each and every production cycle), they disappear from the game forever.  Short of SpaceMaster, there is no way to ever get them back.

And CMCs (eventually) cost more than the 'free stuff' they come with is worth.  What's worse, buying their minerals simply funds their expansion -- requiring you to spend even more wealth to buy even more of your own minerals in a vicious cycle.


You should 'claim' every worthwhile mining site immediately by placing your own colony on it, to prevent CMCs from ever sprouting up.  The only tolerable use for CMCs is to let them have a body you are certain you are never going to develop, in order to tax their miserable output from that two-mineral body with lousy accessibility (though CMCs won't spawn anywhere too terrible -- they have rules for what's "profitable").