number of shipyards

[dooots (OP)]

I was looking through the stories to get a feel for how to build a fleet and was surprised at the number class designs a fleet could require/have.  So that brought up the question of how many shipyards do people run?

Before I went looking I figured I would just have one shipyard per class but after looking I'm not so sure.

[Brian Neumann]

The answer somewhat depends on how you design your ships.  If you look on the last tab for the ship design screen (F5) you will see a box on the lower left saying what other designs could be built at a shipyard that is set to build this design.  If you have a bunch of these then one shipyard can build several different classes.  In that case fewer shipyards is fine, just make sure they have lots of slipways so they can work on several ships at once.

I find that 6-8 shipyards is about the minimum to build any sort of combat fleet.  I usually want one class of fleet scout, one of smaller beam escorts, one of medium missile ship, one capital ship, and a couple of jump ship classes.  

At least two shipyards, often three for my survey forces.  One each of geo and grav surveyors, and one of a command surveyor with jump capacity.

At least 6 commercial shipyards.  One each for my Colonist, Freight, Troop Transport, Sorium Harvester, Terraformer, and Tug designs.  To start with 3 will work for the first three, but you are going to want to have the others at some point.

Later in the game when I am projecting power away from my home system I am also going to want a couple of shipyards building combat support ships.  Colliers, Tankers, extra Maintenance to replace what is used up on damage control, ect.

Hope that helps you

Brian

[randal7]

I had planned to ask the same question this morning. I am coming to the same conclusion: unless you are sure you are only going to build a certain number of a ship that will be enough for a long time period, it is more time/mineral efficient to have dedicated shipyards. I built two carriers to shuttle system defense FACs around; this is so far the only ship I don't plan to need more of (although I am considering shutting down terraformer production).

I forgot about making the designs similar enough to use the same yard; glad you posted that. I tried that early on, making my survey ships identical except for the sensor, but because they were so small they weren't interchangable (it's based on % of cost different, right?). I forgot about it after that didn't work.

[UnLimiTeD]

It always depends on how many ships of a type you need at any given time.
I never have more than a half dozen survey ships, but they all mount their own jump engine, several sensors and a good amount of armor to be as selfsufficient as possible.
Others may prefer a little more expendable designs, and need more of them.

Terraformers might also be some kind of ship you'll build a huge amount of and then stop.

[dooots (OP)]

Thanks Brain, gives me something to chew on.  Hmm looks like I will need more shipyards then I thought, I had forgot about terraformers, soruim harvasters, and tugs.

Is it possible to make combat ships that can be built in the same yard?  I do it with my freighters and colony ships, but it seems like it would be difficult to do with combat ships.

Looks like I need to do more planning on my fleet.  On that note is there any beam heavy fleets to look at?  I don't really care for missiles and would like to use as few as possible.

[Andrew]

Is it possible to make combat ships that can be built in the same yard?  I do it with my freighters and colony ships, but it seems like it would be difficult to do with combat ships.

Yes, all of these ships can be built in the same yard if that yard is tooled for the Vengeance class

Code: [Select]

Victory class Battle Barge    48000 tons     5189 Crew     12915 BP      TCS 960  TH 1200  EM 990
2500 km/s     Armour 12-117     Shields 33-360     Sensors 70/70/0/0     Damage Control Rating 108     PPV 363
Annual Failure Rate: 658%    IFR: 9.1%    Maint Capacity 4709 MSP    Max Repair 360 MSP    Est Time: 1.49 Years
Flag Bridge    Hangar Deck Capacity 500 tons     Troop Capacity: 2 Companies    Magazine 1875    

Internal Confinement Fusion Drive E5 (24)    Power 100    Fuel Use 50%    Signature 50    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 1,120,000 Litres    Range 84.0 billion km   (388 days at full power)
Epsilon R360/15 Shields (11)   Total Fuel Cost  165 Litres per day

Twin 15cm C6 Soft X-ray Laser Turret (6x2)    Range 360,000km     TS: 31250 km/s     Power 12-12     RM 6    ROF 5        6 6 6 6 6 6 5 4 4 3
Single 30cm C6 Soft X-ray Laser Turret (6x1)    Range 384,000km     TS: 13750 km/s     Power 24-6     RM 6    ROF 20        24 24 24 24 24 24 20 18 16 14
Particle Beam-9 (4)    Range 320,000km     TS: 6250 km/s     Power 22-6    ROF 20        9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9
Single Gauss Cannon R4-100 Turret (6x4)    Range 40,000km     TS: 31250 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 4    ROF 5        1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S04 48-25000 (4)    Max Range: 96,000 km   TS: 25000 km/s     90 79 69 58 48 38 27 17 6 0
Fire Control S08 192-12500 (2)    Max Range: 384,000 km   TS: 12500 km/s     97 95 92 90 87 84 82 79 77 74
Tokamak Fusion Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (1)     Total Power Output 4    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Tokamak Fusion Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (16)     Total Power Output 128    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Size 6 Missile Launcher (20)    Missile Size 6    Rate of Fire 40
Size 1 Missile Launcher (15)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Missile Fire Control FC2-R1 (5)     Range 2.4m km    Resolution 1
Missile Fire Control FC235-R100 (1)     Range 235.2m km    Resolution 100
Hammer AS (40)  Speed: 19,000 km/s   End: 3.1m    Range: 3.6m km   WH: 4    Size: 1    TH: 63 / 38 / 19
Hawk AS (515)  Speed: 50,000 km/s   End: 1.2m    Range: 3.6m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 600 / 360 / 180
Aquila AS (220)  Speed: 43,300 km/s   End: 25.4m    Range: 65.9m km   WH: 9    Size: 6    TH: 202 / 121 / 60

Active Search Sensor MR2-R1 (1)     GPS 168     Range 2.4m km    Resolution 1
Active Search Sensor MR235-R100 (1)     GPS 16800     Range 235.2m km    Resolution 100
Thermal Sensor TH5-70 (1)     Sensitivity 70     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  70m km
EM Detection Sensor EM5-70 (1)     Sensitivity 70     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  70m km

ECCM-3 (12)         ECM 30

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes

Code: [Select]

Vengeance class Jump Battle Barge     48000 tons     5076 Crew     14697 BP      TCS 960  TH 1200  EM 990
2500 km/s    JR 3-50     Armour 12-117     Shields 33-360     Sensors 42/42/0/0     Damage Control Rating 108     PPV 281
Annual Failure Rate: 658%    IFR: 9.1%    Maint Capacity 5358 MSP    Max Repair 3600 MSP    Est Time: 0.23 Years
Hangar Deck Capacity 250 tons     Troop Capacity: 1 Company    Magazine 1875    

J48000(3-50) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 48000 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 3
Internal Confinement Fusion Drive E5 (24)    Power 100    Fuel Use 50%    Signature 50    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 1,120,000 Litres    Range 84.0 billion km   (388 days at full power)
Epsilon R360/15 Shields (11)   Total Fuel Cost  165 Litres per day

Twin 15cm C6 Soft X-ray Laser Turret (4x2)    Range 360,000km     TS: 31250 km/s     Power 12-12     RM 6    ROF 5        6 6 6 6 6 6 5 4 4 3
Single 30cm C6 Soft X-ray Laser Turret (4x1)    Range 384,000km     TS: 13750 km/s     Power 24-6     RM 6    ROF 20        24 24 24 24 24 24 20 18 16 14
Particle Beam-9 (2)    Range 320,000km     TS: 6250 km/s     Power 22-6    ROF 20        9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9
Single Gauss Cannon R4-100 Turret (4x4)    Range 40,000km     TS: 31250 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 4    ROF 5        1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S08 192-12500 (2)    Max Range: 384,000 km   TS: 12500 km/s     97 95 92 90 87 84 82 79 77 74
Fire Control S04 48-25000 (3)    Max Range: 96,000 km   TS: 25000 km/s     90 79 69 58 48 38 27 17 6 0
Tokamak Fusion Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (1)     Total Power Output 4    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Tokamak Fusion Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (10)     Total Power Output 80    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Size 6 Missile Launcher (20)    Missile Size 6    Rate of Fire 40
Size 1 Missile Launcher (15)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Missile Fire Control FC235-R100 (1)     Range 235.2m km    Resolution 100
Missile Fire Control FC2-R1 (5)     Range 2.4m km    Resolution 1
Hammer AS (40)  Speed: 19,000 km/s   End: 3.1m    Range: 3.6m km   WH: 4    Size: 1    TH: 63 / 38 / 19
Hawk AS (515)  Speed: 50,000 km/s   End: 1.2m    Range: 3.6m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 600 / 360 / 180
Aquila AS (220)  Speed: 43,300 km/s   End: 25.4m    Range: 65.9m km   WH: 9    Size: 6    TH: 202 / 121 / 60

Active Search Sensor MR2-R1 (1)     GPS 168     Range 2.4m km    Resolution 1
Active Search Sensor MR235-R100 (1)     GPS 16800     Range 235.2m km    Resolution 100
Thermal Sensor TH3-42 (1)     Sensitivity 42     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  42m km
EM Detection Sensor EM3-42 (1)     Sensitivity 42     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  42m km

ECCM-3 (11)         ECM 30

Strike Group
1x Thunderhawk-T Assault Shuttle   Speed: 14680 km/s    Size: 4.7

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes

Code: [Select]

Vigilance class Battle Barge Assault    48000 tons     3170 Crew     10074.8 BP      TCS 960  TH 1200  EM 990
2500 km/s     Armour 12-117     Shields 33-360     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 106     PPV 161
Annual Failure Rate: 708%    IFR: 9.8%    Maint Capacity 3411 MSP    Max Repair 360 MSP    Est Time: 1.17 Years
Hangar Deck Capacity 2000 tons     Troop Capacity: 6 Battalions    Magazine 450    

Internal Confinement Fusion Drive E5 (24)    Power 100    Fuel Use 50%    Signature 50    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 1,040,000 Litres    Range 78.0 billion km   (361 days at full power)
Epsilon R360/15 Shields (11)   Total Fuel Cost  165 Litres per day

Twin 15cm C6 Soft X-ray Laser Turret (4x2)    Range 360,000km     TS: 31250 km/s     Power 12-12     RM 6    ROF 5        6 6 6 6 6 6 5 4 4 3
Single 30cm C6 Soft X-ray Laser Turret (4x1)    Range 384,000km     TS: 13750 km/s     Power 24-6     RM 6    ROF 20        24 24 24 24 24 24 20 18 16 14
Particle Beam-9 (2)    Range 320,000km     TS: 6250 km/s     Power 22-6    ROF 20        9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9
Single Gauss Cannon R4-100 Turret (4x4)    Range 40,000km     TS: 31250 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 4    ROF 5        1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S04 48-25000 (4)    Max Range: 96,000 km   TS: 25000 km/s     90 79 69 58 48 38 27 17 6 0
Fire Control S08 192-12500 (2)    Max Range: 384,000 km   TS: 12500 km/s     97 95 92 90 87 84 82 79 77 74
Tokamak Fusion Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (1)     Total Power Output 4    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Tokamak Fusion Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (10)     Total Power Output 80    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Size 1 Missile Launcher (15)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Missile Fire Control FC235-R100 (1)     Range 235.2m km    Resolution 100
Missile Fire Control FC2-R1 (5)     Range 2.4m km    Resolution 1
Extermination AS (50)  Speed: 19,000 km/s   End: 3.1m    Range: 3.6m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 63 / 38 / 19
Hammer AS (50)  Speed: 19,000 km/s   End: 3.1m    Range: 3.6m km   WH: 4    Size: 1    TH: 63 / 38 / 19
Hawk AS (350)  Speed: 50,000 km/s   End: 1.2m    Range: 3.6m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 600 / 360 / 180

Active Search Sensor MR235-R100 (1)     GPS 16800     Range 235.2m km    Resolution 100
Active Search Sensor MR2-R1 (1)     GPS 168     Range 2.4m km    Resolution 1

ECCM-3 (12)         ECM 30

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes


Code: [Select]

Terrible class Battle Barge Carrier    48000 tons     3481 Crew     11284.2 BP      TCS 960  TH 1200  EM 990
2500 km/s     Armour 12-117     Shields 33-360     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 106     PPV 161
Annual Failure Rate: 708%    IFR: 9.8%    Maint Capacity 3820 MSP    Max Repair 360 MSP    Est Time: 1.25 Years
Hangar Deck Capacity 15000 tons     Magazine 885    

Internal Confinement Fusion Drive E5 (24)    Power 100    Fuel Use 50%    Signature 50    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 1,040,000 Litres    Range 78.0 billion km   (361 days at full power)
Epsilon R360/15 Shields (11)   Total Fuel Cost  165 Litres per day

Twin 15cm C6 Soft X-ray Laser Turret (4x2)    Range 360,000km     TS: 31250 km/s     Power 12-12     RM 6    ROF 5        6 6 6 6 6 6 5 4 4 3
Single 30cm C6 Soft X-ray Laser Turret (4x1)    Range 384,000km     TS: 13750 km/s     Power 24-6     RM 6    ROF 20        24 24 24 24 24 24 20 18 16 14
Particle Beam-9 (2)    Range 320,000km     TS: 6250 km/s     Power 22-6    ROF 20        9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9
Single Gauss Cannon R4-100 Turret (4x4)    Range 40,000km     TS: 31250 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 4    ROF 5        1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S04 48-25000 (4)    Max Range: 96,000 km   TS: 25000 km/s     90 79 69 58 48 38 27 17 6 0
Fire Control S08 192-12500 (2)    Max Range: 384,000 km   TS: 12500 km/s     97 95 92 90 87 84 82 79 77 74
Tokamak Fusion Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (1)     Total Power Output 4    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Tokamak Fusion Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (10)     Total Power Output 80    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Size 1 Missile Launcher (15)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Missile Fire Control FC235-R100 (1)     Range 235.2m km    Resolution 100
Missile Fire Control FC2-R1 (5)     Range 2.4m km    Resolution 1
Hawk AS (405)  Speed: 50,000 km/s   End: 1.2m    Range: 3.6m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 600 / 360 / 180
Skua AS (160)  Speed: 50,000 km/s   End: 12m    Range: 36m km   WH: 6    Size: 3    TH: 250 / 150 / 75

Active Search Sensor MR235-R100 (1)     GPS 16800     Range 235.2m km    Resolution 100
Active Search Sensor MR2-R1 (1)     GPS 168     Range 2.4m km    Resolution 1

ECCM-3 (12)         ECM 30

Strike Group
36x Thunderhawk-F Fighter   Speed: 14081 km/s    Size: 4.9

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposes


[dooots (OP)]

Thanks for the examples Andrew, looks like I can change more then I thought.

[Brian Neumann]

Thanks Brain, gives me something to chew on.  Hmm looks like I will need more shipyards then I thought, I had forgot about terraformers, soruim harvasters, and tugs.

Is it possible to make combat ships that can be built in the same yard?  I do it with my freighters and colony ships, but it seems like it would be difficult to do with combat ships.

Looks like I need to do more planning on my fleet.  On that note is there any beam heavy fleets to look at?  I don't really care for missiles and would like to use as few as possible.

If you really want a beam heavy fleet you are going to need good point defense weapons.  Really early on railguns are generally better than turret weapons as you can get your base fire control tracking speed up faster than you can get the ships moving.  The main drawback to railguns is they are considerably shorter ranged than any of the other beam weapons.  You can compensate by either using lasers, or torpedo's for longer ranged work.  Lasers have the problem that their damage drops off with range, but they have the best penetration of armour.  Torpedo's do the same damage across their range, and have the next best damage profile.  

If you want a general all round good weapon and not have to split your reasearch go with lasers.  They can be used for point defense, heavy weapons, ect.  They penetrate armour the best (by this I mean their damage goes deep rather than a shallow crater) and compared to most other weapons they are fairly long ranged.  Push the range multiplier over big lasers and they will be fast firing, able to score damage on anything your fire control has the range for, and by going for lighter, long ranged fast firing weapons you will also have lots of point defense.

If you are not going to have anti-missiles to thin out incomming fire, you are going to need lots of point defese on your ships.  DO NOT go with ciws as they only protect the ship they are mounted on.  Instead make sure all of your lighter ships have dual purpose weapons (12 or 15 cm lasers with 5-10 second cycle times for example)  Big ships need to have lots of their own point defense as well.  If you go for lasers, make most of them in turrets and only the heaviest not in turrets.  This will give you enough fire-power to survive a missile storm.

Good luck on your designs.

Brian

[UnLimiTeD]

Agreed, Lasers are the best alrounders.
Well, or you could focus on a dual approach of going with Torpedoes and Gauss Cannons.
Or go entirely for mesons, in which case you need to focus a lot of research on engine tech.

[Brian Neumann]

Agreed, Lasers are the best alrounders.
Well, or you could focus on a dual approach of going with Torpedoes and Gauss Cannons.
Or go entirely for mesons, in which case you need to focus a lot of research on engine tech.

If you go for the mesons, don't bother reasearching much above the 30cm mark.  If you keep reasearching the meson range multiplier instead it will keep them reaching out to the same range as the matching fire control would have.  As mesons only do 1 point of damage regardless of their caliber it lets you get more smaller faster firing mesons that still reach as far as you can fire.  For the extra reasearch you do not need to do on meson size, instead sink it into engine tech, and capaciter tech.  You will want both up as high as you can manage.

brian

[dooots (OP)]

I'm still debating if I will use anti-missiles or not.  Form the stories I have read they are very good at their job and it would give me something to use against a fighter or fac heavy fleet.  Although a strong enough point defense should handle fighters and facs.

As for beam weapons I plan on using lasers, and maybe mesons for PDCs.  I've already had my home world bombed the death once and it seems like it would be faster to build PDCs then OWPs.

I was also looking at gauss cannons as a second layer of point defense, but I think I like duel purpose lasers more.

Thanks for the tip on smaller longer range lasers, it makes a lot of sense.  I think I've got my head wrapped around missile design but the stories I have read have been light on beam weapon so it's been harder to work out good designs for them.

Again a lot of good information to chew on, thank you.

Oh and the Torpedoes and gause cannons could be fun.  More of a medium ranged fleet, I'll have to keep that one in mind.

[Brian Neumann]

I'm still debating if I will use anti-missiles or not.  Form the stories I have read they are very good at their job and it would give me something to use against a fighter or fac heavy fleet.  Although a strong enough point defense should handle fighters and facs.

As for beam weapons I plan on using lasers, and maybe mesons for PDCs.  I've already had my home world bombed the death once and it seems like it would be faster to build PDCs then OWPs.

I was also looking at gauss cannons as a second layer of point defense, but I think I like duel purpose lasers more.

Thanks for the tip on smaller longer range lasers, it makes a lot of sense.  I think I've got my head wrapped around missile design but the stories I have read have been light on beam weapon so it's been harder to work out good designs for them.

Again a lot of good information to chew on, thank you.

Oh and the Torpedoes and gause cannons could be fun.  More of a medium ranged fleet, I'll have to keep that one in mind.

A little side note.  As of 5.1 torpedo's are now called particle beams.  Steve just changed the name, so most people on the forum are still in the habit of typing torpedo's.

There is one major drawback to using the gauss cannon as a backup point defense weapon.  It will not work on planets with any atmosphere at all.  If there is much atmosphere the only really viable weapon is mesons.

Brian

[UnLimiTeD]

Well, it think they work as final defense range 0, because technically, the don't travel any distance through atmosphere, then^^

[Hawkeye]

To get back to the question of the number of SY

Early game:
3 commercials with 3 slipways each (1 for freighters, 1 for colony ships and 1 for anything else)
5 military; 3 x 6000t with 3 slipways each for building DDs (DDG, DD and DE) and 2 x 1.000t with 6 slipways each for FAC construction

Mid game:
2 additional commercials (3 slipways each) so I don´t have to retool the "auxilary" one quite so often and the freichter/colony yards get additional slipways (those are the ships I want to massproduce)
3 additional military yards (also with 3 slipways) for building cruisers (CR, CG, CE) in the 12.000 to 15.000t range (usually, I expand the destroyer yards in size and expand the new ones to 8.000t (DDs get bigger over time)

Late game:
Maybe an additional FAC yard.
Other than that, the DD yards get expanded to 15.000t and the CR yards up to 35.000t
I´d like to have another 3 military yards, churning out DDs, but by that time, I usually hurt for minerals, so construction slows down somewhat anyway.

When you happen to start in a nebula, you can forget about the missile designs and reduce the number of shipyards accordingly.

3 slipways per yard seem to be a good compromise between retool-cost and mass-production.

[dooots (OP)]

Oh I didn't know that more slipways increased retool cost.  It looks like I was on the right track with my plan although I have yet to come up with as many combat ship designs.