New Diplomatic Rules for v4.1

[sloanjh]

If you have the Generate New Empires as NPRs option set then any Empires you create should run as NPRs.

I'm confused - I thought that the (SM-mode) "Create Empire" button on the system (F9) screen created a player-controlled race, no matter what the government type.  I thought the option you mentioned determined whether NPR races generated during system generation were computer controlled (on) or player-controlled (off)

Be aware though that as things stand in v4.26, they will eventually treat your race as hostile which could lead to an interesting series of events in the Sol system.

More confusion....  are you alluding to the thread elsewhere that two races in the same system that start out non-friends will eventually hate each other because each sees the other as a trespasser?  Or is there something else in v4.26 that's special?  The reason I asked is that  my (pretty much defenseless due to conventional start) Terran Federation just found an NPR race and is trying to decide whether to make first contact.  If it's guarenteed that they'll eventually end up hostile to me then I think I'll just hide

John

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

If you have the Generate New Empires as NPRs option set then any Empires you create should run as NPRs.

I'm confused - I thought that the (SM-mode) "Create Empire" button on the system (F9) screen created a player-controlled race, no matter what the government type.  I thought the option you mentioned determined whether NPR races generated during system generation were computer controlled (on) or player-controlled (off)

If you generate an Empire on the F9 window, it wil be an NPR if you have NPRs switched on and a player race if you have NPRs switched off. You can switch NPRs on/off before generating a race.

Be aware though that as things stand in v4.26, they will eventually treat your race as hostile which could lead to an interesting series of events in the Sol system.

More confusion....  are you alluding to the thread elsewhere that two races in the same system that start out non-friends will eventually hate each other because each sees the other as a trespasser?  Or is there something else in v4.26 that's special?  The reason I asked is that  my (pretty much defenseless due to conventional start) Terran Federation just found an NPR race and is trying to decide whether to make first contact.  If it's guarenteed that they'll eventually end up hostile to me then I think I'll just hide

The best way to handle it is to either make contact outside their home (or any populated) system or make contact and leave quickly. Look at it from their side. If an alien ship is hanging around in their home system, they are going to get nervous about it. If they encounter you away from their home system, they are going to be far less unhappy.

Steve

[sloanjh]

The best way to handle it is to either make contact outside their home (or any populated) system or make contact and leave quickly. Look at it from their side. If an alien ship is hanging around in their home system, they are going to get nervous about it. If they encounter you away from their home system, they are going to be far less unhappy.

From my reading of the initial post, if I'm trying to open communications in their home system and leave my active sensors off they won't get nervous (accumulate negative points) - is that correct?  Or will they telepathically know that I've got active sensors on my ship which just happen to be turned off (the wording in the post was a little bit ambiguous)?  Or will any non-commercial design upset them (which seems to be what you're saying here)?  As I said, the impression I have is that any ship (even if it's a DeathStar ) will not penalize relations as long as its active sensors are turned off.

Another thing I'm not clear on:  up until about 15 minutes ago, I knew that the aliens existed but they didn't know I did (I'd picked their homeworld up on passives).  I'm confused about what the conditions are for initiating contact, whether they've formed an attitude for me yet, and what level of communications a diplomatic team needs in order to be able to affect the relationship....

1)  It seems like I should need to "break EMCON" in order to open communications.  It seems like the easiest way to do this (in game mechanics) is to require a ship that's communicating to have its transponder on.  At present, it seems like I can jump into a system, detect an alien population, jump back out, and still attempt to initiate communications and have diplomatic relations with them without any ships in systems that they occupy.  Do you have thoughts on this?  At present it seems like this (at least the "initiate" part) needs to be role played, i.e. turn on the transponder of the embassy ship.  That still doesn't address the "accrual" issue - is there an easy way to have Aurora define an "in contact" or "out of contact" state between two empires?

2)  I guess the above bullet got most of my questions, but specifically, it feels like I should de-assign my diplomatic team whenever I'm not in contact with an empire, so that the diplomatics don't have an effect on aliens that they aren't talking to.  Is this correct?

3)  Assuming that they haven't detected me, does it hurt me (i.e. let their attitude towards me get more negative) if I wait to open contact?  I assume the answer is no, but wanted to double-check....

4)  Before opening communications, I snuck quite a ways into their system.  It occurs to me that sneaking around without a transponder could be interpreted as a hostile act.  Should there be a penalty if aliens detect you leaving the WP without a transponder?

5)  As you say, having unknown ships hanging about one's system might make one a little nervous.  Have you thought about an "intercept" mission for NPRs, where they send a ship to a neutral or words contact?  Once intercepted, if the contact moves any further towards and alien population it should/could be interpreted as a hostile act.

6)  If I immediately grant an alien trade access (+100 attitude per year) and then avoid shooting at them or going into their home system, does that mean that their attitude towards me is guarenteed to drift in the positive direction?  It seems like it should, since their Xenophobia should subtract off less than 100 per year and there don't seem to be any other modifiers if you leave them alone.

Thanks,
John

[sloanjh]

Ok....I've established full communications with the NPR I activated, and I didn't turn my transponder on.  The "yes" buttons for all of the diplomatic states on my side, however, are all greyed out, and the military "Treaties set by alien race" is "unknown".

I suspect that what's going on is that they still don't know that I exist.  I guess that makes sense if "initiate contact" means passively listen to their "I Love Lucy" reruns in order to figure out their language and culture.  Is this correct?

John

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

The best way to handle it is to either make contact outside their home (or any populated) system or make contact and leave quickly. Look at it from their side. If an alien ship is hanging around in their home system, they are going to get nervous about it. If they encounter you away from their home system, they are going to be far less unhappy.

From my reading of the initial post, if I'm trying to open communications in their home system and leave my active sensors off they won't get nervous (accumulate negative points) - is that correct?  Or will they telepathically know that I've got active sensors on my ship which just happen to be turned off (the wording in the post was a little bit ambiguous)?  Or will any non-commercial design upset them (which seems to be what you're saying here)?  As I said, the impression I have is that any ship (even if it's a DeathStar ) will not penalize relations as long as its active sensors are turned off.

I can see how my original post might be misinterpreted so I have changed 'with active sensors' to 'on active sensors'. The NPR will get upset with any ship they detect using their own active sensors. In other words, they won't assign any negative modifier if they only pick you up on passives because they won't know to which race that contact belongs. Once you are within their active sensor range and they can identify you, that is why they start applying the negative modifier. Bear in mind that commercial ships will still cause the negative modifier unless you have a trade treaty in place.

Another thing I'm not clear on:  up until about 15 minutes ago, I knew that the aliens existed but they didn't know I did (I'd picked their homeworld up on passives).  I'm confused about what the conditions are for initiating contact, whether they've formed an attitude for me yet, and what level of communications a diplomatic team needs in order to be able to affect the relationship....

Once you know they exist, you can initiate communication and a diplomatic team can affect the relationship once comms are established.

1)  It seems like I should need to "break EMCON" in order to open communications.  It seems like the easiest way to do this (in game mechanics) is to require a ship that's communicating to have its transponder on.  At present, it seems like I can jump into a system, detect an alien population, jump back out, and still attempt to initiate communications and have diplomatic relations with them without any ships in systems that they occupy.  Do you have thoughts on this?  At present it seems like this (at least the "initiate" part) needs to be role played, i.e. turn on the transponder of the embassy ship.  That still doesn't address the "accrual" issue - is there an easy way to have Aurora define an "in contact" or "out of contact" state between two empires?

I used to have this concept but I removed it. It's just too hard to determine within the program when you are in actual contact. It occurred to me that every single 4x game I can think of does not have any restriction of this type of contact so I decided to join the club. One way to rationalise it is that even if you are not in direct contact, you will still be analysing any past communication in order to work out the alien language. Just like modern archaeologists can figure out ancient languages without anyone left alive to speak it. You might even work out the language based on planetary emissions (TV broadcasts, etc.).

2)  I guess the above bullet got most of my questions, but specifically, it feels like I should de-assign my diplomatic team whenever I'm not in contact with an empire, so that the diplomatics don't have an effect on aliens that they aren't talking to.  Is this correct?

No, the program assumes the diplomatic team is working constantly, just as the alien xeno rating is working constantly. A lot of the diplomatic team's time is probably spent working on strategy rather than in direct communication anyway. I know this abstracts things but it does make it much easier and no different than any other game of this type.

3)  Assuming that they haven't detected me, does it hurt me (i.e. let their attitude towards me get more negative) if I wait to open contact?  I assume the answer is no, but wanted to double-check....

If they don't know you exist (i.e. active detection of one of your ships or passive detection of one of your pops), they won't even have an attitude towards you.

4)  Before opening communications, I snuck quite a ways into their system.  It occurs to me that sneaking around without a transponder could be interpreted as a hostile act.  Should there be a penalty if aliens detect you leaving the WP without a transponder?

No. If they do find you though, you will receive negative modifiers as long as they keep you within active sensor range if you are in a populated system. The deeper into the system you are, the longer it will take you to get back out if you are detected.

5)  As you say, having unknown ships hanging about one's system might make one a little nervous.  Have you thought about an "intercept" mission for NPRs, where they send a ship to a neutral or words contact?  Once intercepted, if the contact moves any further towards and alien population it should/could be interpreted as a hostile act.

A possibility. I'll give that some thought. The tricky bit will be you realising they have intercepted you and also what happens if you run.

6)  If I immediately grant an alien trade access (+100 attitude per year) and then avoid shooting at them or going into their home system, does that mean that their attitude towards me is guarenteed to drift in the positive direction?  It seems like it should, since their Xenophobia should subtract off less than 100 per year and there don't seem to be any other modifiers if you leave them alone.

You won't be able to immediately grant trade access. Your attitude toward that race will have to reach +100 before that option becomes available. Your attitude toward them will be determined by the diplomatic team they assign to you and your own xenophobia rating. In other words, how worried about aliens is your race and how good are those aleans at reassuring your government they don't plan to eat you.

Steve

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

Ok....I've established full communications with the NPR I activated, and I didn't turn my transponder on.  The "yes" buttons for all of the diplomatic states on my side, however, are all greyed out, and the military "Treaties set by alien race" is "unknown". I suspect that what's going on is that they still don't know that I exist.  I guess that makes sense if "initiate contact" means passively listen to their "I Love Lucy" reruns in order to figure out their language and culture.  Is this correct?

You won't be able to assign treaties to the alien race until your diplomatic rating reaches certain levels. The levels are:

Neutral Military Status: -100
Friendly Military Status (Jump ships can escort the alien Empire's ships): 800
Allied Military Status: (Ships will defend the ally's ships against missile attack): 4000

Trade Access: 200
Share Geological Survey Data: 800
Share Gravitational Survey Data: 2400
Share Research Data: 6000

Steve

[sloanjh]

Thanks, Steve - this cleared up a LOT of my confusion!!

I can see how my original post might be misinterpreted so I have changed 'with active sensors' to 'on active sensors'. The NPR will get upset with any ship they detect using their own active sensors. In other words, they won't assign any negative modifier if they only pick you up on passives because they won't know to which race that contact belongs. Once you are within their active sensor range and they can identify you, that is why they start applying the negative modifier. Bear in mind that commercial ships will still cause the negative modifier unless you have a trade treaty in place.

Eeep!!!!  So my unarmed embassy ship TFNS Come In Peace is pissing them off while it innocently sits there (they sent some gunboats out to intercept it which have it on active) because they suspect that she has a friend on the other side of the warp point - the TFNS Go In Pieces?  (You don't need to answer this one - it was mostly rhetorical.)

Just like modern archaeologists can figure out ancient languages without anyone left alive to speak it. You might even work out the language based on planetary emissions (TV broadcasts, etc.).

Got it - so it's the "I Love Lucy" mechanism.

5)  As you say, having unknown ships hanging about one's system might make one a little nervous.  Have you thought about an "intercept" mission for NPRs, where they send a ship to a neutral or words contact?  Once intercepted, if the contact moves any further towards and alien population it should/could be interpreted as a hostile act.

A possibility. I'll give that some thought. The tricky bit will be you realising they have intercepted you and also what happens if you run.

I think you've already done this - I was asking because of my misunderstanding of the active stuff.  What happened after I turned my transponder on was that they sent a squadron of GB out to intercept the contact (my ship), which stopped 10k km with actives on.  Since I thought that trying to talk to them was a good thing, I've got my ship just sitting there pissing them off.  This is pretty much the behavior I was suggesting, with the caveat that I was thinking that they wouldn't mind me sitting still, but would mind my approaching their HW after intercept.

You won't be able to immediately grant trade access. Your attitude toward that race will have to reach +100 before that option becomes available. Your attitude toward them will be determined by the diplomatic team they assign to you and your own xenophobia rating. In other words, how worried about aliens is your race and how good are those aleans at reassuring your government they don't plan to eat you.

Aaaaah - that's the trigger....  I was thinking that once full comms are established, I was free to choose my empire's posture.  Is this the same threshold as for them to open trade with me, or is it 50% off (to represent me being able to somewhat go against public opinion)?

So let me see if I've got an optimal 1st contact protocol right (if you want to establish peaceful relations) - that should help clear up any more misunderstandings of the process:

0)  Jump into a system and discover an alien population.

1)  If they've got you acquired (and aren't shooting yet, which they presumably never will be since the initial rating will not have more than 100 (max Xenophobia) subtracted off) jump back out immediately.

2)  (Role Playing) hit the "Initiate contact" button and remain in the system (stealthed) until full contact is established.  This represents listening to their broadcasts etc.  I realize that jumping out right away will have the same effect - that's why I called it role playing :-)  Do you still have the "communication modes" stuff associated with each race (i.e. verbal, visual, smell, etc) that you had a while back - you could make a little wheel where modes close to each other were easy and modes diametrically opposite were almost impossible.

John

[Laurence]

Only if the other races are NPRs. Player races don't apply that modifier to the Diplomacy Rating.

Steve

Steve, if I make my starting race (a player race) on Earth, then create additional races (China, etc) and give them a government type of something other than "Player Race", will the game run them as NPRs?  

If you have the Generate New Empires as NPRs option set then any Empires you create should run as NPRs. Be aware though that as things stand in v4.26, they will eventually treat your race as hostile which could lead to an interesting series of events in the Sol system.

Steve

Understood.  And I wasn't planning on being nice to them in the long run anyway, I'll give it a try.  

[SteveAlt]

If you have the Generate New Empires as NPRs option set then any Empires you create should run as NPRs. Be aware though that as things stand in v4.26, they will eventually treat your race as hostile which could lead to an interesting series of events in the Sol system.

Understood.  And I wasn't planning on being nice to them in the long run anyway, I'll give it a try.  

Steve

[alanwebber]

Steve

How about a diplomatic bonus if you rescue survivors from lifepods and return them to a local colony?

Alan

[Beersatron]

I presume that there is no way to assign multiple teams to a race? My best team has a rating of 80 and the standings are crawling along at a snails pace, which is ironic because the species picture is of a snail  

There is another race I have encountered and they have me set to -1000 so I am going to bust a cap in their collective asses instead of trying to play the diplomacy game - they shot first anyways!! The thing is, I did hit 'initiate communication' and now after every update I get a message saying that the other race refuses to communicate. Unfortunately, I can not 'stop communication'?

[Beersatron]

I have a diplo rating of 230 with one of the NPRs and have set them to allow Trade, but they have not reciprocated. I thought that they would set me as a trading partner automatically? Bug, or am I missing something else?

[schroeam]

I have a diplo rating of 230 with one of the NPRs and have set them to allow Trade, but they have not reciprocated. I thought that they would set me as a trading partner automatically? Bug, or am I missing something else?

The diplomatic scene is much more complicated than that.  The diplomatic rating you see is your population's view of the NPR, but the NPR has a completely different view of you, based on their  base species characteristics.  You might find another NPR that will be more inclined to grant you trade access before you are allowed to reciprocate.
Adam.

[Beersatron]

I have a diplo rating of 230 with one of the NPRs and have set them to allow Trade, but they have not reciprocated. I thought that they would set me as a trading partner automatically? Bug, or am I missing something else?

The diplomatic scene is much more complicated than that.  The diplomatic rating you see is your population's view of the NPR, but the NPR has a completely different view of you, based on their  base species characteristics.  You might find another NPR that will be more inclined to grant you trade access before you are allowed to reciprocate.
Adam.

Ah, I had thought that the diplo rating on that screen was a combination of mine and their views towards one another. Cheers

[Beersatron]

Two questions:

1. I don't suppose there is somewhere that I can see what another race thinks of me?

2. From this thread on sensors and mines, is the targeting smart enough to NOT fire on somebody I have set to Neutral or Allow Trading?