Author Topic: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions  (Read 350874 times)

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Offline Profugo Barbatus

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1860 on: January 28, 2020, 08:17:35 AM »
What problem is this trying to fix that the game has? If you leave a ship without refitting it to a new class for a hundred years, what you have is a very useless ship puttering about. If you constantly refit it into whole new ships over time, you are going to regularly get notified about refits in excess of the cost of a new ship, which always felt to me like you started passing the point where you are replacing whole superstructure and other such things.

Much like how we have 200 year old sailing ships floating around, but if you took one of those and wanted to refit a nuclear reactor and vertical launch systems onto it, your going to pay more than the cost to just build one from scratch, and have to build an entirely new superstructure to support these modern parts.

I also don't want this stepping on my roleplaying. I've regularly played feudal style multi empire games, and its fairly common for a couple of 'pride of' style ships to end up going through many times their normal refit costs just to be a continuation of a legacy starship for nobility or the like. I don't want them doing so only to be told "but it'll break down every two weeks and you can't fix that" even when dropping 150% the price of a new ship on overhauls, and RPing it as the ship being essentially the answer to the ship of Theseus problem. I could just build a new ship with the same name, but then the history is lost, along with the point.
 
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Offline DEEPenergy

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1861 on: January 28, 2020, 05:08:44 PM »
Hey Steve, any chance for forced deportations or evacuations of aliens whos systems you conquer? In case you just want the system, not the alien population. Could be worked into treaties as well, where one side demands the other remove a colony in X amount of time.
 

Offline DFNewb

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1862 on: January 28, 2020, 05:13:11 PM »
Has the beam fighters having a hard time hitting things slower than them with very close range weapons depending on target speed and your fire control range or weapon range?

I recently had a problem with my 7km speed fighters not being able to hit a moving 5km ship.  I later changed them with longer ranged weapons and they could but makes no sense that the faster ships couldn't get in range. . .
 

Online Steve Walmsley

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1863 on: January 28, 2020, 05:15:11 PM »
Hey Steve, any chance for forced deportations or evacuations of aliens whos systems you conquer? In case you just want the system, not the alien population. Could be worked into treaties as well, where one side demands the other remove a colony in X amount of time.

I guess you could transport the aliens to a new system and then transfer the colony to the NPR. I looked at the AI removing colonies when I coded the latest Diplomacy update and it was tricky to make it work with all the potential factors involved - what if there was no direct route back NPR space for example? That's why I went for transferring the populations. There is some precedent for that on Earth. Countries agree border changes and towns and cities end up in a different country.
 
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Offline Kristover

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1864 on: January 28, 2020, 05:57:39 PM »
Hey Steve, any chance for forced deportations or evacuations of aliens whos systems you conquer? In case you just want the system, not the alien population. Could be worked into treaties as well, where one side demands the other remove a colony in X amount of time.

I guess you could transport the aliens to a new system and then transfer the colony to the NPR. I looked at the AI removing colonies when I coded the latest Diplomacy update and it was tricky to make it work with all the potential factors involved - what if there was no direct route back NPR space for example? That's why I went for transferring the populations. There is some precedent for that on Earth. Countries agree border changes and towns and cities end up in a different country.

I also think it would make for an interesting synergy with the ground game. Okay you know just forced the NPR fleet out of the system without firing a shot but their former colony of 25m isn't happy with the new management and now you're going to have to garrison that world.  I don't know if Steve has coded revolts, uprisings, declaring independence yet (it was mentioned in the wiki), but if so you might have just inherited a big problem in your borders.
 

Online Steve Walmsley

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1865 on: January 28, 2020, 06:10:11 PM »
I guess you could transport the aliens to a new system and then transfer the colony to the NPR. I looked at the AI removing colonies when I coded the latest Diplomacy update and it was tricky to make it work with all the potential factors involved - what if there was no direct route back NPR space for example? That's why I went for transferring the populations. There is some precedent for that on Earth. Countries agree border changes and towns and cities end up in a different country.

I also think it would make for an interesting synergy with the ground game. Okay you know just forced the NPR fleet out of the system without firing a shot but their former colony of 25m isn't happy with the new management and now you're going to have to garrison that world.  I don't know if Steve has coded revolts, uprisings, declaring independence yet (it was mentioned in the wiki), but if so you might have just inherited a big problem in your borders.

Not yet, but the new ground combat system lends itself well to spawning insurgent forces.
 
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Offline Kristover

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1866 on: January 28, 2020, 08:38:28 PM »
Insurgent forces would be good and would force the decision, 'I'm in a shooting war with an NPR and need my best ground forces at the front but I now have this insurgent problem.  Do I keep high capability ground units back to deal with it and take risk at the front?  Do I have purpose built counter-insurgent formations hunting these guys down?  As I occupy more systems, do I need more of these forces but do they come at the expense of my front line warfighters?'  For little additional coding effort (I think), it could really add some REALLY interesting strategic/operational decisions.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2020, 10:15:21 PM by Kristover »
 

Offline SevenOfCarina

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1867 on: January 29, 2020, 05:13:32 AM »
With the C# habitat changes, orbital habitats become viable alternatives to infrastructure when the colony cost exceeds about 6.0. However, since LG infrastructure costs thrice as much as regular infrastructure, housing population on habitats always ends up being cheaper than using LG infrastructure when the colony cost exceeds 2.0. This is somewhat problematic, since a large majority of near habitable worlds are colony cost 2.0 or thereabouts, due to oxygen pressure requirements. Add in the fact that habitats do not need a larger environment sector population, and LG infrastructure becomes almost useless in comparison

Can the cost of LG infrastructure be lowered to 4.0 BP to make it at least somewhat competitive?
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1868 on: January 29, 2020, 08:32:22 AM »
Has the beam fighters having a hard time hitting things slower than them with very close range weapons depending on target speed and your fire control range or weapon range?

I recently had a problem with my 7km speed fighters not being able to hit a moving 5km ship.  I later changed them with longer ranged weapons and they could but makes no sense that the faster ships couldn't get in range. . .
This is an issue with Initiative and how new players do not understand how it works. It is a little counter-intuitive. Steve has changed the initiative system for C# a little bit: http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg97342;topicseen#msg97342

The detailed answer to your issue was given in the Bugs thread and you should read that as the underlying mechanics do not change.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1869 on: January 29, 2020, 08:41:12 AM »
What problem is this trying to fix that the game has? If you leave a ship without refitting it to a new class for a hundred years, what you have is a very useless ship puttering about. If you constantly refit it into whole new ships over time, you are going to regularly get notified about refits in excess of the cost of a new ship, which always felt to me like you started passing the point where you are replacing whole superstructure and other such things.

Much like how we have 200 year old sailing ships floating around, but if you took one of those and wanted to refit a nuclear reactor and vertical launch systems onto it, your going to pay more than the cost to just build one from scratch, and have to build an entirely new superstructure to support these modern parts.

I also don't want this stepping on my roleplaying. I've regularly played feudal style multi empire games, and its fairly common for a couple of 'pride of' style ships to end up going through many times their normal refit costs just to be a continuation of a legacy starship for nobility or the like. I don't want them doing so only to be told "but it'll break down every two weeks and you can't fix that" even when dropping 150% the price of a new ship on overhauls, and RPing it as the ship being essentially the answer to the ship of Theseus problem. I could just build a new ship with the same name, but then the history is lost, along with the point.

I would not worry about the role-play aspect as you could always put in some extra engineering modules to still make a 150 year old ship work reasonably well for that purpose. I think role-play in this context is a relatively weak argument as you could say that to just about every mechanic that poses some form of restriction in the game. Soon we are down to imagining everything in our heads using that argument...  ;)

I think it is important that we can imagine all sort of role-playing environments, so don't get me wrong here...

I still think it is a good idea to somehow force older ships to eventually need to be scraped because of excessive overhaul and refit costs. It is fairly easy to design ships with the intention of continually being able to afford refitting them indefinitely as you do so incrementally over time for very low costs. You can even increase the size of ships just a tiny bit every time so a 9000t ship ends up a 16000t ship after a 100years of continual incremental refit projects.

Now... you don't HAVE to do this as YOU decide if this kind of mechanic should be exploited in this way or not, you also could just scrap old ships and ROLEPLAY it is no longer worth to refit them even if mechanically they still are. I just would like to have a system where I need to deal with the fact that time and usage of (especially military) ships will have unusually high wear and tear as they are built for high stress use and so are also put under allot of stress, even during training exercises. It will ultimately force long term logistical and economical decision makings that is interesting to deal with.


Another thing is experience... as the game really don't model crew rotation and ships need to continually be under training over time it becomes a bit immersion breaking when a ship can retain its high experience and fleet training levels over many centuries with little effort. Perhaps some form of degrading of experience and fleet training over time would be nice as well as ship crews would need to be replace over time as well depending on the service length of the crew which then would effect experience and fleet training levels. You should not have to bother about this logistically... just that depending on your crew service policy ship will need a certain amount of crew and each year the ship would drain your crew pool as old and new crew are rotated from the ship, new and old crew swap places when the ship is at port due to deployment recovery. Only crew from the academies are obviously drained this way and commercial ships should not be able to use academy crews at all anymore if this was implemented.

This would produce some interesting ways that you deal with ship deployment that makes it allot more realistic. It would be very difficult to have ships with many years of deployment without making them VERY expensive in terms of crew cost.

Let's then assume that crew available is more a crew pool in the form of points and not actual numbers. Each ship will then have a service length and a deployment value. Your empire will also have a general service length of crew which are the general level of service length your crew are expected to serve on ship in each term. A ship could never have a deployment longer than its individual service length.

Now each ship that deviate from the empires general service length would have to pay more or less crew points to refill either lost crew or simply to replace them over time. If you lower the service length on the individual length it will require slightly less crew points but more then if the empire general level was reduced to that level. If a ships general service length is higher you will have to spend considerably more crew points to replace crew.

Now... for the more interesting things that also is very realistic. The more incrementally you replace the crew the more they are able to retain their skill and training. Let's say you have an empire wide service requirement of 24 month and a ship with a 6 months deployment rating you will need to replace 25% of the crew after that 6 month is up (abstraction of how it would work in the long term). Now, if the same ship instead had a 12 month deployment rating you would need to replace 50% of it crew after those 12 months in space. In the first case the ship might loose say 9% of its experience and in the second it might loose 25% of its experience (subject to balancing). The reason being that if a ship have more experienced crew they can more easily train the new crew to the higher standard. If you replace all crew you are down to the base experience level and so lost 100% of the ships experience. This also goes for fleet training levels.

This wold make deployment time and actual use of ships even more engaging as the longer they spend in space the more those ship loose in experience once they replace a larger portion of its crew. Obviously the max deployment rate of ships is not the major factor for this, it should always be the actual deployment of the ship, not the max possible. So you can still have a 12 month potential deployment of a ship but rarely use it all to retain experience and fleet training levels better.

Such rules would also put a higher emphasis on a highly skilled base crew or one that you train up with a long service time to retain the skill of the crew easier... sort of quality over quantity strategies.

« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 09:18:01 AM by Jorgen_CAB »
 

Online Steve Walmsley

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1870 on: January 29, 2020, 11:32:52 AM »
With the C# habitat changes, orbital habitats become viable alternatives to infrastructure when the colony cost exceeds about 6.0. However, since LG infrastructure costs thrice as much as regular infrastructure, housing population on habitats always ends up being cheaper than using LG infrastructure when the colony cost exceeds 2.0. This is somewhat problematic, since a large majority of near habitable worlds are colony cost 2.0 or thereabouts, due to oxygen pressure requirements. Add in the fact that habitats do not need a larger environment sector population, and LG infrastructure becomes almost useless in comparison

Can the cost of LG infrastructure be lowered to 4.0 BP to make it at least somewhat competitive?

Yes, that is a good point - I've changed it as suggested.
 
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Offline Profugo Barbatus

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1871 on: January 29, 2020, 01:09:17 PM »
Jorgen, if the goal is to discourage still using and refitting century-old ships, why don't we just do exactly that. Add a modifying to the cost of refitting a ship based on its age, rather than a constantly ticking malus on deployment time. A refit on a 5 or 10 year old ship wouldn't be much affected, a 30 year old ship would be getting pretty expensive, and a 100 year old ship would be exorbinant to refit, but once its refit, then it performs as expected. If you leave a ship 30 years out of date, its been overhauled and maintained this entire time so much like our 200 year old sailing ships, you can still take them out and they'll perform as well as back then. That old performance will just be terrible. As long as refitting the ship doesn't reset this 'service life' tracker, then it should work fine.

This preserves the best of both worlds of allowing these sorts of poor decisions to be made on player RP, while building a mechanic that discourages gaming the refit system forever. I'm still not convinced its needed, but at least this is adding a modifying to a players choice, instead of just chipping away at their options by drawing arbitrary limits. And I'm pretty sure service life of a ship is a pretty easy check to look at when refitting.
 
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Offline Father Tim

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1872 on: January 29, 2020, 06:02:13 PM »
I still think it is a good idea to somehow force older ships to eventually need to be scraped. . .

I don't.  I think it's a terrible idea.  I completely disagree with the proposal to limit my fun.

As Jorgen_CAB pointed out, no one is forcing you to use centuries-old ships, or to continually refit them to be larger and larger.  So don't do it.  But don't take away MY ability to do so just because YOU think it's unrealistic.  Don't cripple MY ships' crews' experience just because YOU imagine one-quarter of them being replaced at once.  That's not how my empire works.

Aurora has never been realistic.  Internally consistent, yes, but never realistic.  We literally threw out Newton's Laws when we started.  There is no "realistic" in our imaginary futures, only "appropriate for our fiction" and "NOT appropriate for our fiction."

My empire (this week) consists of slow-growing, incredibly long-lived tree people who build their spaceships out of 'wood' and sail on solar winds captured in gossamer-thin electron sails rigged all around their nigh-spherical hulls.  Our semi-living ships are expected to last centuries, increasing in size the entire time, and our crew turnover is basically nil.

Your proposals are totally "unrealistic"
 
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Online Steve Walmsley

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1873 on: January 29, 2020, 06:44:45 PM »
I don't plan to add any restrictions on older ships. Partly this is because older ships with a long history make for great story telling, so I don't want to damage that potential, and partly because I don't think ships becoming harder to refit or overhaul after decades in service is adding any meaningful game decision. It is likely to be frustrating more than challenging.

There is nothing to stop anyone adding their own role play elements to avoid using older ships.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: C# Aurora v0.x Suggestions
« Reply #1874 on: January 29, 2020, 07:28:54 PM »
I still think it is a good idea to somehow force older ships to eventually need to be scraped. . .

I don't.  I think it's a terrible idea.  I completely disagree with the proposal to limit my fun.

As Jorgen_CAB pointed out, no one is forcing you to use centuries-old ships, or to continually refit them to be larger and larger.  So don't do it.  But don't take away MY ability to do so just because YOU think it's unrealistic.  Don't cripple MY ships' crews' experience just because YOU imagine one-quarter of them being replaced at once.  That's not how my empire works.

Aurora has never been realistic.  Internally consistent, yes, but never realistic.  We literally threw out Newton's Laws when we started.  There is no "realistic" in our imaginary futures, only "appropriate for our fiction" and "NOT appropriate for our fiction."

My empire (this week) consists of slow-growing, incredibly long-lived tree people who build their spaceships out of 'wood' and sail on solar winds captured in gossamer-thin electron sails rigged all around their nigh-spherical hulls.  Our semi-living ships are expected to last centuries, increasing in size the entire time, and our crew turnover is basically nil.

Your proposals are totally "unrealistic"

As I also said before.. you can say that about ANY mechanic in the game... eventually you are just laying in bed dreaming...  ;)

Anyway... I think that having ships require crew over time and experience trickle down over time if you don't retrain the ships would add to decision making. As max fleet training completely remove the penalty for giving order I feel that it should be very difficult to have large part of a fleet at 100% fleet training.

Realistic crew training could be something you use in the same way that realistic maintenance is used... as an option for more realistic experience and training simulation. If implemented roughly as I outlined it would be more or less automated and you would have to train the ships more, that is it. But you would have to make a bit harder design decisions.