Trouble Designing Basic Troop Transports: What Am I Doing Wrong?

[Gwyn ap Nud (OP)]

Hello everyone, I'm a newcomer to Aurora 4x and I'm having trouble designing my troop transports (I'm roleplaying without offensive ships for now, I know I'm going to die horribly but the designs for combat ships scare me right now so I'm taking baby steps). 

I'm very low-tech right now, especially in engines, all I'm aiming for is basic functionality.  My issue is, every time I try to load a Low-Tech unit into my transports, it says I don't have enough space.  I've tried configurations from 1 troop transport to 1 cargo bay to 30 troop transports to 10 each transports and cargo bays, and yet I can't get them to load.  Is it possible that Low-Tech don't load into troop transports?

This is what I have right now.  What am I missing (I haven't put in maintenance stuff yet, I'm really just trying to get those darn battalions to load so that Luna will stop complaining about lack of military forces.  Which reminds me, secondary question: ground troops do count against rising unrest, right? I don't have to design combat ships yet to deal with that, do I?

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Ard class Troop Transport    18,700 tons     130 Crew     483.3 BP      TCS 374  TH 300  EM 0
802 km/s     Armour 1-62     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 0
Maint Life 0.02 Years     MSP 16    AFR 2797%    IFR 38.9%    1YR 995    5YR 14924    Max Repair 40 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Spare Berths 1   
Troop Capacity: 5 Battalions    Cargo Handling Multiplier 5   

75 EP Nuclear Thermal Engine (4)    Power 75    Fuel Use 31.17%    Signature 75    Exp 7%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres    Range 6.2 billion km   (89 days at full power)

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Thank you!

[Erik L]

http://aurorawiki.pentarch.org/index.php?title=Ground_Units gives you the answer. A low-tech ground unit is size 50, thus requiring space for 50 battalions. This space cannot be split between ships. Your ship would work fine for TN tech units except Engineers. They are size 25, I think still.

[Gwyn ap Nud (OP)]

Oh wow, I wasn't thinking they'd be THAT big.  Ooops.  Welllllllllll, that's quite too big for my shipyards.  I guess it would make most sense to research up a garrison ground unit and convert to that then.  Thank you for your help!

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Clarification:

1 size point: Company

5 size points: Battalion

21 size points: TN Brigade of 4 Battalions + BHQ

25 size points: 1 Construction Brigade

105 size points: TN Division of 4 Brigades + DHQ

125 size points: Low-Tech Division

Ground units will reduce unrest and grant police strength for occupations.  However, they don't count as 'military protection' - that can only be provided by armed PDCs or armed ships.    This is one purpose of the (unfortunately bugged) missile bases in the conventional start.

[Nibelung44]

Your troop transport is currently a military ship, which is bad as you can see, as navy shipyards are very costly to bring to what is needed to transport a division. You can do with a civilian ship for a troop transport, just don't use high efficiency engine but civilian ones.

[Hyena]

Are you serious? One transport module only handles 1/125 of a low-tech division? That's. . .  ridiculous.     

Also, where are the sizes listed in the game? The module pointedly says 'Space for one battalion' and then fails to mention anywhere that the units you have are never actually one battalion in size.  You're just supposed to keep adding ships until they fit? This is frustrating as hell.  I've been gaining unrest on my colonies for ages now and went through a huge amount of trouble to build troop transports to move infantry, but at no point in the UI does it even begin to suggest that units aren't moved at a 1/1 ratio.  Now I have to scrap the entire plan (and the ships since apparently they are utterly useless) because building enough transports to move even a single unit of infantry would require 100,000s of tonnage worth of troop transports.  Which is crazy.     

I have two suggestions;

1) Allow troop transports to move ground units piecemeal.  If you can break up a terraforming installation to move it in pieces - which I imagine is quite a task - it makes no sense to me that you can't break up a battalion of infantry and move it piecemeal, which is something that is done in the military literally every day.  I shouldn't require an enormous fleet of transports to move people and their equipment around unless I want to do it in one trip.  If you're going to make it incredibly hard to move an entire unit, at least make that task so that it can be done progressively.     

2) Put the unit size in the ground forces tab.  There's a great spot for it.   All kinds of information is displayed; attack, defense, training, morale.  And yet apparently it never crossed anyone's mind to maybe put in the unit size for the purpose of moving them around? Seeing as they're apparently all different and bear only the most indirect relation to the unit size used in the transport module description? I mean, I know it's Steve's baby and it's not really intended for public consumption, but given the sheer amount of detail the UI normally provides, it absolutely boggles my mind that this information (which I would consider absolutely crucial) is left out when there's a perfectly good place to display it.

At least with installation sizes (another detail that is left out) doesn't really have a great place to display the information for purpose of transport, so I can understand that.

[alex_brunius]

Are you serious? One transport module only handles 1/125 of a low-tech division? That's. . .  ridiculous.    

low-tech divisions are not made to be moved easily in small spaceships

A real modern division consists of around 15'000 men and equipment like trucks and APCs to move them all. In addition mechanized and armored divisions have 500-1500 of combat vehicles weighting 10-80 ton each normally.
On top of that you add equally much tons of support vehicles like engineer, supply, ammo, and so forth.


It would probably make sense to show low-tech units as brigades instead though to make them a bit more manageable. Almost all units in today's armies are brigades rather then divisions.

2) Put the unit size in the ground forces tab.  There's a great spot for it.   All kinds of information is displayed; attack, defense, training, morale.  And yet apparently it never crossed anyone's mind to maybe put in the unit size for the purpose of moving them around? Seeing as they're apparently all different and bear only the most indirect relation to the unit size used in the transport module description? I mean, I know it's Steve's baby and it's not really intended for public consumption, but given the sheer amount of detail the UI normally provides, it absolutely boggles my mind that this information (which I would consider absolutely crucial) is left out when there's a perfectly good place to display it.

It is a good suggestion and I'm sure it has been suggested before.

[Hyena]

low-tech divisions are not made to be moved easily in small spaceships

A real modern division consists of around 15'000 men and equipment like trucks and APCs to move them all.   In addition mechanized and armored divisions have 500-1500 of combat vehicles weighting 10-80 ton each normally. 

On top of that you add equally much tons of support vehicles like engineer, supply, ammo, and so forth. 

Still, that's about 2500 tons of ship to move 125 men and their gear/vehicles.   Even if you allotted two tons of space to every soldier and his gear(reasonable, assuming storage and spartan sleeping quarters are necessary), you're still only looking at 250 tons of space.   Which leaves 2250 tons for what, exactly? 225 vehicles? Let's assume that there's a 10 ton vehicle to every 4 man team.   That is about 31 vehicles (rounding down because ten tons for every vehicle is very high).   That is still only 310 tons.   So we've gotten up to 560 tons out of 2500 tonnage.   So what's the rest for? Ordinance? Ammunition? Medical supplies? Radios? Food? Even if every single soldier consumed a whole ton of ammunition you're still only up to 685 tons.   Even if every single soldier was allotted one ton of medical supplies, you'd still only be up to 810 tons.  You're not even halfway to using it all.  Where is all the tonnage going?

I dunno, there might be some reasoning behind the logistics of that.   I imagine that the amount of space required to move large amounts of troops is pretty considerable, but this seems excessive (in that it is a wildly conservative estimate) nonetheless.   Transport modules should be able to move more than they do.   And you still ought to be able to move units piecemeal. 

It would probably make sense to show low-tech units as brigades instead though to make them a bit more manageable.   Almost all units in today's armies are brigades rather then divisions. 

It would, and it wouldn't hurt to say in the pre-generated names of ground units what they are.   It doesn't call them brigades or divisions, it just says 18th Low Tech Infantry.   Tacking on 'Division' would clear things up a bit.   And again, adding in the unit size for purposes of transportation. 

[JacenHan]

A standard troop transport module carries a battalion, not a company. That's about 1000 men and their equipment. Company sized modules are much smaller.

For clarification:
1 size point = Company, small transport module.
5 size points = Battalion, standard transport module.
125 size points = Low tech division, 5 transport modules.

[Hyena]

I am aware of what a standard troop transport module carries.  It says it right in the description.

And yet this is still about as clear as mud.

If a Battalion is 5 size, and requires 1 module, then how does 5 modules bring you to size 125?

5 x 5 is 25, not 125.

By any rational math I can think of it should be 25 standard modules to carry a division if the division is 125 size.  So why. . . .

Okay.  Actually, as it turns out, the game does actually say the unit sizes somewhere - when you create the units.  Which I just realized while checking something.
It says that Low Tech Infantry/Armor is size 50, not size 125.

The wiki also says 50.  I am getting the impression that the size lists in this thread are the result of bad math.  The 125 size was what I had an issue with.  50 I can deal with, but this thread has some very wonky information.

[sneer]

there is no reason to move low tech stuff around
and you will get better staff really soon

[alex_brunius]

Still, that's about 2500 tons of ship to move 125 men and their gear/vehicles.   Even if you allotted two tons of space to every soldier and his gear(reasonable, assuming storage and spartan sleeping quarters are necessary), you're still only looking at 250 tons of space.   Which leaves 2250 tons for what, exactly? 225 vehicles? Let's assume that there's a 10 ton vehicle to every 4 man team.   That is about 31 vehicles (rounding down because ten tons for every vehicle is very high).   That is still only 310 tons.   So we've gotten up to 560 tons out of 2500 tonnage.   So what's the rest for? Ordinance? Ammunition? Medical supplies? Radios? Food? Even if every single soldier consumed a whole ton of ammunition you're still only up to 685 tons.   Even if every single soldier was allotted one ton of medical supplies, you'd still only be up to 810 tons.  You're not even halfway to using it all.  Where is all the tonnage going?

2500 tons of ship to move 125 men = 20 ton per man.

Vehicles will take up a lot of that.

400 tanks @ 70 ton each = 28000 ton = 2 ton per man in the division.
750 BMP/APC @ 20 ton each, to transport haft the division = 15000 ton = 1 ton per man in the division.
750 Firesupport (artillery/AA/Anti tank) @ 20 ton each = 15000 ton = 1 ton per man in the division.
Misc vehicles for recon and other special tasks = approx 1 ton per man in the division.
Support vehicles/ammo/repair and mainly logistics for the above = double that for 5 ton per man in the division.
=========================================
10 ton per man just for vehicles/heavy guns.

Add more if you are including any airsupport, air recon or helis at all.

Yes granted this is a heavy armored division, but the numbers are far from unreasonable or crazy. They add up fairly well.

[Hyena]

2500 tons of ship to move 125 men = 20 ton per man. 

Vehicles will take up a lot of that. 

400 tanks @ 70 ton each = 28000 ton = 2 ton per man in the division. 
750 BMP/APC @ 20 ton each, to transport haft the division = 15000 ton = 1 ton per man in the division. 
750 Firesupport (artillery/AA/Anti tank) @ 20 ton each = 15000 ton = 1 ton per man in the division. 
Misc vehicles for recon and other special tasks = approx 1 ton per man in the division. 
Support vehicles/ammo/repair and mainly logistics for the above = double that for 5 ton per man in the division. 
=========================================
10 ton per man just for vehicles/heavy guns. 

Add more if you are including any airsupport, air recon or helis at all. 

Yes granted this is a heavy armored division, but the numbers are far from unreasonable or crazy.   They add up fairly well. 

The thing you're responding to isn't really relevant anymore.   But I really must protest regardless;
I disagree that half the tonnage when using the absolute worst-case scenario(heavy armor division) 'adds up well.  ' It is failing to account for half of the available space.   Speaking of which, you're also using short tons (weight) of a tank and comparing it to tonnage (cargo volume) and that just.  .   doesn't work.   A block of lead in the shape of a tank will weigh more but not take up any more cargo space.   Likewise an inflated blimp would require more tonnage to transport than a tank, despite being lighter than air.   Tanks are very heavy, but they are relatively compact in comparison to their weight.   More than that, you listed 400 very heavy (at 70 tons) tanks when, at least if you use the American military as an example (I assume you were, unless 70 tons - the weight of an M1 Abrams main battle tank - was a fluke), turns out to be about double what a division actually uses (which is between 100-250 heavy tanks).   

I didn't bother to check your other numbers, mostly because it's clear you were thinking in terms of weight, but that's all irrelevant anyway. 

.  .  .   because it's actually 2500 tons (of volume) to transport a 5 size ground unit (a battalion).   Which makes it 2500 tons for 1000 soldiers, roughly.   Which I think is perfectly fair.   Two tonnage per soldier with 500 left over for vehicles and supplies.   It was the reported size of 125 per division that was making the numbers go all wonky when the math was done backwards. 

[alex_brunius]

I disagree that half the tonnage when using the absolute worst-case scenario(heavy armor division) 'adds up well.

I'm using the averages here...

Take a look at the list of vehicles here and divide the number of vehicles on the around 15 US divisions fielded:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_currently_active_United_States_military_land_vehicles

I didn't bother to check your other numbers, mostly because it's clear you were thinking in terms of weight, but that's all irrelevant anyway.  

Please don't claim I am wrong when it's clear you didn't even bother to check the numbers for your own claim yourself.

A single prime mover (truck) would take up a volume of 2.5*5*25 = 312.5m^3 volume or 110 tonnage (GRT) volume. That's far more then its empty weight in tons. Is it less for a tank? Yes around half volume GRT, but most vehicles are not tanks and would be about equal in GRT and tons being somewhere between a tank and a truck in density.

It doesn't matter if you use volume or weight, a modern mechanized division will take up loads of both to move.

It is failing to account for half of the available space.

Your failing to account for that to carry stuff you need a container around it and an ability to drive it on-off like ramps and some clearance.
To carry heavy stuff in space you need really heavy containers and heavy duty ramps.
Also we have not even started on how much crew accommodation space 15'000 soldiers in aurora would need, we are talking about transporting them for months here, aurora even displays how many ton per man you need.

We also only talked about the weight/volume of vehicles, nothing about weight/volume of supplies (for months) and ammo (which a normal artillery piece can consume tons of in a single day of combat).

.  .  .   because it's actually 2500 tons (of volume) to transport a 5 size ground unit (a battalion).   Which makes it 2500 tons for 1000 soldiers, roughly.   Which I think is perfectly fair.   Two tonnage per soldier with 500 left over for vehicles and supplies.   It was the reported size of 125 per division that was making the numbers go all wonky when the math was done backwards.

Ok, then I am going to argue that the size of a low tech tank division is certainly far too low.
For infantry without much vehicle or heavy gun support those numbers might work.

[Rolepgeek]

Can we not forget that A. Tonnage in this does not necessarily correspond to actual weight or volume, since it affects the speed, but it also affects the size of shipyard necessary, and it isn't seperate measurements? B. That a good deal of that tonnage is going to support personnel, integration with the rest of the ship, infrastructure within the module itself, etc.? And C. If I remember correctly, Aurora Brigades are supposedly 500 men, but it's also really fancy and high-tech equipment like, presumably, power armor and things of that nature. Meaning it's barely 5 tons per man, and for their support personnel, equipment, and vehicles.