Aurora 4x

VB6 Aurora => Aurora Suggestions => Topic started by: martinuzz on August 24, 2010, 04:06:10 PM

Title: Some more biology research
Post by: martinuzz on August 24, 2010, 04:06:10 PM
The genetic engineering is a pretty cool.
However, why stop there? I think it would be nice to have some more research for the biology department:

- longevity research
Who wants to live forever? (Volunteers needed for human trials)
Game effect: Your naval/army officers, administrators and scientists retire at an higher age. You can profit longer from that +40% research, 40 labs scientist.

- immunology research
Alien worlds bring alien diseases. They must be studied!
Game effect: reduces the chance of your officers/administrators/scientists getting health issues.

- bioenhancement
It might hurt a bit.. Don't worry, it will make you better.
Game effect: Adds to ground force strenght. I suggest removing that research line from Logistics/Ground combat and moving it to biology.
New techline for Logistics/Ground forces instead: Reduce ground force training time
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: Vanigo on August 24, 2010, 05:07:54 PM
Yeah, Biology/Genetics definitely needs more tech lines, and medicine would be an obvious outgrowth. Maybe a set of techs that improved population growth, too?
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: MattyD on August 24, 2010, 05:22:42 PM
Hibernation research - gives the ability to survive for a period in a form of suspended animation.

In Game - lifepod time extended. Might be handy to rescue experienced officers and men.
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: UnLimiTeD on August 24, 2010, 05:42:12 PM
Yes, extended life pod time is worthwile.
And be it just for RP reasons.
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: Vanigo on August 24, 2010, 07:33:42 PM
Maybe improved crew quarters?
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: Aldaris on August 25, 2010, 05:39:24 PM
Maybe biological armour of some kind? weaker than non-bio armour of an equivilant tech level, but self repairing?
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: MattyD on August 25, 2010, 06:12:13 PM
What about characters being part of a genetic group? Scientists with a Martian genetic heritage should only get their full bonus working in Martian Labs. If they are forced to work on Earth, their bonus should be reduced by some factor similar to colonisation cost - the less suitable they are for the environment, the less capable their work should be.

Should officers and commanders require ships crewed with their genetic brothers and sisters rather than a regular crew.

Creation of really alien species could lead to loads of interesting RP possibilities. I would like to see the possibility of human mk ii's declaring independence from player and becoming an NPR.
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: Vanigo on September 19, 2010, 09:25:14 PM
Oh, hey, why not move colonization discounts to biology/genetics?
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: On_Target on September 20, 2010, 04:45:20 AM
Hibernation research - gives the ability to survive for a period in a form of suspended animation.

In Game - lifepod time extended. Might be handy to rescue experienced officers and men.

This could just as easily be a Logistics tech for making the lifepods themselves more advanced.
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: Vanigo on September 20, 2010, 06:32:02 AM
This could just as easily be a Logistics tech for making the lifepods themselves more advanced.
Sure, but biotech is a severely underutilized specialization. It needs the business. Logistics doesn't.
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: On_Target on September 20, 2010, 08:48:13 AM
Sure, but biotech is a severely underutilized specialization. It needs the business. Logistics doesn't.

Eh, logistics isn't exactly overflowing with options either.  My interest is strictly verisimilitude; if the biotech would be chemicals or the like giving a short term-stasis, then biotech works.  Otherwise it'd make more sense for lifeboats to have improved air recycling or something of that nature.

Of course, if I'm going to rescue lifeboats, it's generally right away or not at all due to whether or not I have assets in-system.  There was only the one instance of "crap, hold on guys we'll pick you up as soon as we pound the snot out of these aliens," and that still had plenty of time to spare.
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: Vanigo on September 20, 2010, 09:42:06 AM
I had a close one sneaking a scout ship through a system that was still full of precursors at low speed once; it's not useless. It's not all that useful, either, of course, but...
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: The Khan on October 11, 2010, 06:12:17 PM
Simulation-wise, a longevity treatment can be groundbreaking.  Imagine: 5000 years we try medicine, juju, surgery to keep the gooey mush we inhabit from falling apart for one more precious year.  A Longevity drug like "juvenats" of "Warhammer 40000" can not only bring long life for officers but huge profits, a wealthier population,better population growth and massive happiness, expecially when you need that extra year to study or live or enjoy.

A more interesting asset could be combat stimulants.  A fighter pilot hooked on some wild stimulants that don't destroy his mind when hes plugged off, or a pheromone spray to remove panic and fear could be nice.  Come to think of it, you can mix chemicals and pheromones to drinking water, some tinfoil hatters say it happens.
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: welchbloke on October 13, 2010, 07:16:43 PM
A more interesting asset could be combat stimulants.  A fighter pilot hooked on some wild stimulants that don't destroy his mind when hes plugged off, or a pheromone spray to remove panic and fear could be nice.  Come to think of it, you can mix chemicals and pheromones to drinking water, some tinfoil hatters say it happens.
This is already happening in the real world.  Te USAF already provides stimulants to its pilots.
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: The Khan on October 14, 2010, 12:37:19 AM
Quote from: welchbloke link=topic=2861. msg29388#msg29388 date=1287015403
This is already happening in the real world.   Te USAF already provides stimulants to its pilots.

Super genetically tailored stimulants that don't have withdrawal like POWERTHIRST!
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: ExChairman on October 14, 2010, 12:51:29 AM
well the German paratroopers of WW 2 had amphetamines, and some other "ups" when they jumped into combat. . .  So why not some kind of "supersoldier". . .  :-\
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: jRides on October 14, 2010, 05:30:03 AM
Aye, it would be nice to be able to genetically engineer troops, I'm not sure how that would differ in effect from the "Ground Unit Strength" research. Adjusting longevity of the species via genetic enhancement would also be pretty cool, I'm actually surprised its not already in.

Genetic research could also have other effects, like increasing productivity/income/manufacturing output of a planet - like a leaders bonuses giving a small percent of enhancement, you could temper that with unrest (as in today where folks are unhappy about GM stuff).
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: UnLimiTeD on October 14, 2010, 06:08:19 AM
I think changing up ground combat will happen with he ground combat overhaul that contains more than abstract numbers.
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: Aldaris on October 15, 2010, 07:57:15 AM
Super genetically tailored stimulants that don't have withdrawal like POWERTHIRST!
But then nature will be all like SLOOOOW DOOOOWN.
And if everybody has 400 babies the population would explo-
Actually, that last one might be handy, maybe a tech that allows for increased population growth? Or at least a pop growth characteristic in new subspecies?
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: UnLimiTeD on October 15, 2010, 08:33:37 AM
Could be helpful.
Actually the population growth is probably a little on the high side.
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: ollobrains on August 20, 2011, 06:18:07 AM
some form of growth modifier - perhaps troop growing facilities and some form of expansion to the tech tree to do with troops
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: Mel Vixen on August 20, 2011, 03:30:34 PM
^^ well i would like to see some Genetic-Archeology. Say you find some ruins and in these ruins some alien remains. If yo research this remains you could get a new species or "modification" for you Genetic modification centers.

If natural radiation from Stars, Gasgiants and the planets themselves would be in some modifications against radiation would be nice too. More environmental adaptions would be nice anyway say mods that adapt a species to the over-abundance of water (Waterworld and Insmouth people) or to extreme scarcity of it (think tatoine). How much light and also its color and strength affect people and the entire ecology. 

And why not proto-swarm like tech? I mean Humanity created its first own biological laser (http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/editors/26876/).
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: ollobrains on August 21, 2011, 02:11:17 PM
perhaps biological weapons could also require biological supplies ( farms on planets, biovats or other sources ) ie enemy citizens body fluids
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: Jacob/Lee on August 21, 2011, 02:21:10 PM
Just a random and out there suggestion, maybe you can bio-engineer a dangerous virus to drop on enemy worlds. Higher tech levels would make the virus more dangerous/faster acting/faster spreading etc. etc.

A sufficiently strong/prepared enemy can work on some sort of antivirus and administer it to the population of the planet.

Due to the hellishly destructive nature of this feature, the tech line should be rather high in RP.
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: ollobrains on August 21, 2011, 02:23:03 PM
reasonable idea biological ( perhaps chemical weapons) and their cure-prevention technologies are another avenue for ingame technology expansion and impact on gameplay
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: Jacob/Lee on August 21, 2011, 06:20:05 PM
Perhaps you can research bionic enhancements, like some sort of cyborg attatchment that makes crewmembers faster/stronger/quicker thinking etc. etc, so for example when being boarded it changes the 100 crew = 1 defense thing* to 75 crew = 1 defense etc. etc.

*assuming that figure is still correct
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: ollobrains on August 21, 2011, 06:36:43 PM
bio-mechnanical enhancement technology is pretty well potentially viable ingame giving soilders and crew additonal bonuses
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: Lex Talionias on September 15, 2011, 06:56:57 AM
why am i the 1st to suggest the ability to clone your best officers?

it would be totally bad-ass to spend some wealth and have an entire military led by clone 1# to 1000# of captain McBadass.
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: Dutchling on September 15, 2011, 10:26:18 AM
why am i the 1st to suggest the ability to clone your best officers?

it would be totally bad-ass to spend some wealth and have an entire military led by clone 1# to 1000# of captain McBadass.
And than they all get the same diseases :P
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: welchbloke on September 15, 2011, 12:48:50 PM
why am i the 1st to suggest the ability to clone your best officers?

it would be totally bad-ass to spend some wealth and have an entire military led by clone 1# to 1000# of captain McBadass.
But how much of Capt McBadass is traing and experience and how much is physiological?  It's the whole nature vs nature thing.  Personally, IMHO you might get something that looks like Capt McBadass but unless you can insert all of his/her memories it means nothing.
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: Dutchling on September 15, 2011, 01:01:44 PM
Memory insertion device, 10% exp - 50,000 RP
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: Thiosk on September 15, 2011, 01:03:08 PM
I'd be happy with Rejuvination treatments that one could apply to your finest officers.  At great expense.
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: Mel Vixen on September 15, 2011, 01:08:22 PM
Actually cloning-vats could be nice for a increaded population growth - if they would have some drawbacks say a significant loss in income while they are running, rising unrest levels (Anti-GM and cloning Activists) or using sizeable amounts of minerals.

edit: And a cloned officer could cost minerals and Money too.
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: Antagonist on September 16, 2011, 05:43:46 AM
Long-levity and medical improvements ARE most obvious for this, but research to increase suitability to live on alien worlds without needing genetic engineering is another.  Combat improvements such as implants and biological warfare has been mentioned.  Xenobiology is another I think should be considered, but more on that in a bit.

The benefits of biology research would most reasonably be increase in medical trade goods (indirect wealth bonus) as well as population growth bonus.  I've never really been completely happy that the only thing that unsuitable worlds affect is infrastructure needed to live on it.  In my opinion it should have a major effect on population growth, with potential biology research to overcome it, either expanding a population's habitable ranges or just reducing the impact of it being outside that range.  Moving reducing colony cost to the biology tree, or adding a similiar research to the biology tree (biology optimises the life-support infrastructure, meaning less of it is needed, logistics improves the design and logistics, reducing cost).

As for xenobiology, the most obvious benefit is trade goods on alien worlds and colonised garden worlds as well as a diplomancy bonus.  I don't think any other research yet assists diplomancy, but then again I am unsure it alone is worth the RP.
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: PTTG on September 17, 2011, 02:16:33 AM
Move terraforming equipment research to the Biology tree.  Consider Biology less as a study of genetics in particular and more in the sense of Life Science as a whole.  Then it is easy to see that the sculpting of a biosphere is quite obviously a Biology endeavor.
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: Thiosk on September 17, 2011, 03:02:49 AM
Move terraforming equipment research to the Biology tree.  Consider Biology less as a study of genetics in particular and more in the sense of Life Science as a whole.  Then it is easy to see that the sculpting of a biosphere is quite obviously a Biology endeavor.

I agree wholeheartedly... but terraforming is at this time simply gasses, which are (presumably) nonbiological in origin. 

THAT BEING SAID, the addition of biomes is something im quite interested in, and could be a big part of terraforming.  Sure, you can probably get mercury's pressure up and temperature down, but would it ever be colony cost zero?  I doubt it-- no hydrosphere... i dont think theres a magnetosphere (but I don't remember).

Should a colony cost zero world really require no "infrastructure?"  I think it should be capable of generating infrastructure faster than population growth, unlike a >0 colony cost world, but if you plopped half a million people on an infrastructureless planet, they'd probably die horribly for numerous reasons.  Should an infrastructureless planet be able to house 10 billion people?  i doubt that too.

I'm not sure that the added complexity of tracking magnetospheres, biospheres, biomes, and hydropsheres is really worth it, though.
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: Mel Vixen on September 17, 2011, 08:18:39 AM
Well (gm-)plants can be part of terraforming. They can filter different gases out of the air (carbondioxide, water-vapor etc.), theyr foilage could change the albedo a bit (a dark green reflects less then light grey stone), and produce Oxygen. GM-plants could also free some workers from the agricultur economy. 

I think radiation, hydro- and mangnetosphere etc. can be factored into the suitability. I dont think they would make the game harder as it is right now, they would just another thing you would have to consider if you want to terraform a planet to 0 col-cost.
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: Antagonist on September 20, 2011, 05:39:05 AM
As for hydrosphere and magnetrosphere and biosphere stuff... I would like to see these in terraforming and infrastructure costs, as well as growth rates.

Infrastructure I see as domes or gas masks or heaters, not as roads and buildings, that is to say, stuff you need IN ADDITION in order to cope with the alien world.

As an example, look at the Avatar movie.  It is a non-hostile poisonous atmosphere so people can walk around it unprotected.  It is just not breathable so requires sealed buildings and gas masks.  A planet without a hydrosphere would require water recycling and purification plants as infrastructure.

However, if you need a gas mask to walk around and a air-sealed building to live in it will make it much harder to raise a family, in my mind impacting growth rates.  Even more so if in order to have your little farming plot you need to dome encase the entire property with proper sun lamps and irrigation, something far easier on a garden world.  There should be a bonus in growth rate as well for terraforming a planet to ideal earthlike, not just 'good enough to walk around without a mask' as now, perhaps even a happiness bonus.

Biosphere is an incredible terraforming tool, capable of not just generating a correct atmosphere(oxygen generating microbes), but also affecting the albedo of a planet.  Google Daisyworld.

As a measure to combat micro-management that an increased amount of terraforming variables would bring, how about adding a 'terraform to garden' button?  This will automatically pick the optimal route to reduce infrastructure costs without needing manual calculations.

I support terraforming under Biology.
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: Lex Talionias on September 20, 2011, 10:03:29 PM
off topic but with cloning officers.

it would recreate them at a cost, memory implants and such would never make them as good as the original but still decent with a few issues just for clones added in.  i would suggest cloning facilities being needed to do it and a research project needed just to be able to create the clone in the 1st place with additional costs plus using a biology scientist to operate the cloning program.
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: Karakzon on September 23, 2011, 09:45:32 AM
could have the population auto rename its species to be say
Martian for mars
Vesuvian for venus
etc etc

and have it so that the longer the colony has been going, natural evolution takes place more so the humans living their adapt.
Then have this adaption figure change depending on the number of imported conlonists.  Ie:
If i stuck 10million people on a world with 20mill worth of infrastructure, by time it gets to 20mill it should have adapted the humans to a small extent of say a single % or so if i didnt import more colonists to that particular world, and over time this new species world would change to lower infrastructure costs, and over time could become an easy choice to colonise simular worlds to the one they adapted to, speeding up the aurora colonisation process in th elater game.
 -more along lines of heat and gass tolerance/atmosphere pressure and gravity, not going to become immune to sulphur or go beyond the genetics reaserch trees expanded variables for colonists-
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: swarm_sadist on May 31, 2012, 05:41:31 PM
Not sure if necro-ing is better or worse than creating more topics. 

Agriculture
It could reduce the number of people required for the agriculture sector.   It can start off at pre-industrial levels of about 90%, moving 10% until about 50% (which is the start of the industrial revolution for humans).   Current rates for the US has 2.  4% of it's population in agriculture (not including 'environmental' workers such as terraformer scientists, park wardens, veterinarians, etc).   Fewer workers required in agriculture, the more available for manufacturing. 

Biological Weapons/Antidotes
The use of organic weapons, such as viruses, bacteria, parasites, diseases, and even insects to kill enemy populations, biosphere or agriculture.   These could be designed just like a ship, with specialities like kill-switches, extra lethality or increased resistance to antidotes.   If the enemy develops an antidote, you can simply produce a retrofit version of your bio weapon (EX: BACILLUS ANTHRACIS STR A2025-90/29).   The computer could cull all the old ones so you could effectively have an unlimited number every game.   An antidote would have to be produced every time a new strain is developed, meaning you would need to constantly fund your bio warfare division to keep your population safe.   Or you could cut back to save money.   Either way, the virus should not be 100% effective and the cure should not make you invulnerable either. 

Medicine
Generally considered any technique that is capable of maintaining health through disease, trauma and ageing.   Keeps your officers alive longer (preferential medical treatment), raises the lowest and highest possible growth rate slightly (civilian trauma augmentations? better health industry?) and reduces crew loss in battle (like the induced coma from warhammer). 

Population Tailoring/Genetics
Increasing or decreasing population growth, increasing or decreasing optimal gravity/temperature point, increase the range of gravity/temperature habitable, improve intelligence (species would produce better officers and more wealth per capita), reduce death rates (put a cap on negative growth rate) and improve loyalty.   Since evolution is the steady change of a species, there should be the ability to modify already engineered species.   A flag mentioning that the species is second generation artificial can be used to keep track of how much tampering has occurred in their genes.   Too much tampering could result in species sterility, or genetic decay. 

Triage
Gives your commanders a second chance to recover from what would be a life threatening injury.   Not quite sure what determines if an officer dies in combat (i'm guessing a dice roll), but if they do get the unlucky "die" roll, then they should get either another roll or a percentage chance to survive.   Maybe make their health take a hit (to take into consideration scars and disfigurement) so it is not a "free" life.   Maybe also allow "killed" ground forces to go back into the force pool, similar to the trickle-back system in Hearts Of Iron. 


Other Ideas:
Biosphere - To protect against climate change? Protection from radiation damage? Mask thermal emissions of colony?

Looking forward to being on the forums.
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: MehMuffin on June 17, 2012, 08:14:48 PM
Another military application, why not the ability to engineer mega beasts of war to assist your ground forces? Sure, the assault battalions do fine, but couldn't they do a little better with a few fifty foot tall leopards with steel plated, spike covered skin to back them up?

EDIT: I think it would also be neat to have more drastic species changes, like turning into a hive mind race.
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: swarm_sadist on June 17, 2012, 11:47:58 PM
Trans-humanism taken to the extreme?

Building genetic killing machines for land combat is simply adding another type of land force. Although you could make it a wealth only cost to build them. Hmm....
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: Hawkeye on June 18, 2012, 10:15:39 AM
I am throwing this in as Thiosk has mentioned the lack of a magnetosphere on mercury.

What if the earth magnetic field vanishes?

The Ionosphere will create a magnetic field by itself because the sun sends charged particles at 400 to 500 km/s towards us. As those particles are charged, they also carry a magnetic field.
In the Ionosphere there are charged particles and neutral gas. Because a plasma (Ionosphere) prevents a magnetic field to enter, the particles from the sun are slowed down and "splashed" over the Ionosphere, they do put the Ionosphre under preassure, however, so to speak.
The interesting thing is, that the electrons from the sun interact different with the neutral gas in the Ionosphere  than the protons, resulting in the electrons being slowed down faster than the protons. This in turn creates a current, which generates a magnetic field between the earth and the sun.

According to the models/simulations, this effect will creat a magnetic field of a similar strength to our current one in 350km in less than an hour.


This is a rough (very, very rough) translation of a german educational tv-show (Alpha-Centauri) with Prof. Harald Lesch, an astro-physicist (plasma physicist?).


Why am I posting this?
One, if you understand german, you should realy have a look at this show on youtube
Two, according to this, a magnetosphere is not necessary for live to exist on a planet, as an atmosphere will create its own magnetic field.

Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: Person012345 on June 18, 2012, 12:42:09 PM
I agree wholeheartedly... but terraforming is at this time simply gasses, which are (presumably) nonbiological in origin. 

THAT BEING SAID, the addition of biomes is something im quite interested in, and could be a big part of terraforming.  Sure, you can probably get mercury's pressure up and temperature down, but would it ever be colony cost zero?  I doubt it-- no hydrosphere... i dont think theres a magnetosphere (but I don't remember).

Should a colony cost zero world really require no "infrastructure?"  I think it should be capable of generating infrastructure faster than population growth, unlike a >0 colony cost world, but if you plopped half a million people on an infrastructureless planet, they'd probably die horribly for numerous reasons.  Should an infrastructureless planet be able to house 10 billion people?  i doubt that too.

I'm not sure that the added complexity of tracking magnetospheres, biospheres, biomes, and hydropsheres is really worth it, though.
I've always assumed infrastructure just referred to the infrastructure required to keep you alive on a barren planet, things like bio-domes, air conditioning etc. Rather than what we think of as infrastructure as in road and rail etc.
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: crys on June 18, 2012, 03:08:32 PM
i dont know if it was said before,

but i would like something like advanced foods, which reduce the pop needed in agriculture.  (basic food, enhanced food/farming, advanced food - or something more creative like self regenerating fertilizers.
maybe stronger at more hostile planets(growing food at alien planets should be less difficult, because you can take different seeds - manipulate them easily)


if we would move from biology science to planatary science:
pollution reduction -> less workers for manufacturing sector
or if you like it more bio-factories

some tech that could help with the lots of pop in service industries too.


maybe something to increase population growth
as tech or building

someone said population growth is fast in this game, but at 6b pop, it takes something like 13 years to 7b - which we made on earth in about 12-13 years too.
with the option to colonize other planets, why should the world been compellt to slow our population growth?
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: UnLimiTeD on June 18, 2012, 05:40:12 PM
Because new born children aren't instantly workers, but Aurora doesn't simulate that.
Furthermore, we can see pretty clearly that birth rate drops dramatically with rising wealth and education, and the high tech society depicted in Aurora should thusly have a lower population growth.
Also, Aurora doesn't picture the environmental damage, logistical problems, social unrest and civil wars that inevitably come with strong population growth;
Thus we only get the good side of the coin.
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: crys on June 18, 2012, 07:09:50 PM
hmm i thought in the usa there are usualy 2 or more children in a family, think the same for japan and maybe even more in singapore?
just because in europe we have a falling growth rate, its not every where like that.

about the social unrest and civil wars - i think the world would quickly unite, if we find alien life out there - as an enemy.(humans are warmongers - its what we know best)
it looks a lot like an united earth in auroa anyways, so i would assume religion(one of the main causes of war) lost a lot of the conflict potential, because of the lacking number of nations which could go to war with each other.


i dont see much logistical problems with advanced space flight, if you can build thouse huge/quick space ships.

enviromental damage is a point, most of us propably care not enough about it - if it will cause huge problems is another question, but lets assume it will.

earth grew 3b ppl in the last 39 years 4->7b who knows where it is going.

about the children - you can assume that health issues are going down alot - and ppl will be more healthy, work longer, and get older.

but who knows, maybe population growth goes down alot in future, or we are still growing in numbers like the last 40 years
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: sloanjh on June 18, 2012, 10:10:51 PM
I've always assumed infrastructure just referred to the infrastructure required to keep you alive on a barren planet, things like bio-domes, air conditioning etc. Rather than what we think of as infrastructure as in road and rail etc.

That's correct.  Once the planet becomes habitable, the infrastructure cost becomes zero and any infrastructure in place just sits there doing nothing (kind of like medieval city walls in European cities :) ).

John
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: sloanjh on June 18, 2012, 10:12:13 PM
Should a colony cost zero world really require no "infrastructure?"  I think it should be capable of generating infrastructure faster than population growth, unlike a >0 colony cost world, but if you plopped half a million people on an infrastructureless planet, they'd probably die horribly for numerous reasons.  Should an infrastructureless planet be able to house 10 billion people?  i doubt that too.

I actually made this argument very early on.  Steve didn't buy it :)

John
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: jseah on June 19, 2012, 06:45:33 AM
hmm i thought in the usa there are usualy 2 or more children in a family, think the same for japan and maybe even more in singapor?
just because in europe we have a falling growth rate, its not every where like that.
Actually, this is wrong.  Singapore has *the* worst greying population in the whole world.  I come from there... >.>

*checks* Yep, we rank at the bottom of the CIA world factbook.  0.78 children per woman. 
Japan is at 1.38, which isn't much better (at #202 out of 222). 

IIRC, the only advanced economy that has replacement birth rates is the USA, at 2.06, (actually a quick glance at the CIA factbook tells me France is around there too) and mostly because they have lots of immigrants that generally have higher birth rates for one generation. 
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: crys on June 19, 2012, 08:04:53 AM
got me there, i only checked the population growth numbers.

the number of children i got more from things i heared or assumed =(
bit confusing to hear about dense population with few children(how got it dense without alot of children?)
all immigration? hmm

guess i should get my facts in order to make an argument ;)
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: UnLimiTeD on June 19, 2012, 08:36:08 AM
Happens. :)
Today, rich industrial and post-industrial states mainly keep up their population by immigration; and I can support the numbers above, even though official government statistics for signapore show 1.2 birthrate in 2011.
Still pitiful.
USA is a special case because of just the thing you said won't matter much in the future: Religion. :P
It's the only large economy that still contains a statistically relevant amount of people churning out children; whether that's for the better I leave to you.
With a more well rounded social policy, unrests might be limited in the less economically endowed regions, and birthrate might be increased again to self-sustenance, but much higher? not really.
If a world with 5 billions or more has a consistent living standard that on average reaches at least the 80s in central Europe or North America, population will be relatively stagnant even with efforts being undertaken to increase fertility rates.
Short of Religion, political indoctrination or any other given ethos ingrained to the populace, it'll require a significant financial effort.

This gives meaning to politics, however.
A Theocracy could start with less research labs and have have slight disadvantages on other areas, but a higher pop growth in turn.
At least leave it to the SM, that'll allow for nice RP.
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: crys on June 19, 2012, 08:51:10 AM
maybe it would make sence to connect the growth rate with the employment situation.
so when you are lacking ppl for work - youre growth rate is increasing because of the abundance of open jobs.
but in the same way decreasing growth when there are no open jobs.


on the other hand i have lacking population on new planets, where i put all my mines from the home world - but thouse are usualy small and grow fast.(much faster then earth today 5x-9x) - there im allways a bit sad to see 75% of the ppl working in the service industries, and just 12-25% in manufacturing with millions of open jobs in the mines.

if it would be easy we wouldnt speak about it =)
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: UnLimiTeD on June 19, 2012, 08:56:30 AM
Because people today work in service industries. No one actually wants to work in mines; That age is past us.
New planets with a small population size, in small communities, have that "frontier"-atmosphere, that agreeable does indeed foster growth.
Maybe people have nothing to do in the evening.  ::)
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: ollobrains on July 11, 2012, 05:26:55 AM
might make sense that birth rates drop on large planets with full employment and high wealth factors.  Within full environmental conditions ( spacial area of planet could scale this up or down based on earth ie larger planets more space to spread out settle etc) high growth colony worlds could see some population moves back to bigger planets based on comparitive wealth and biological factors
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: Redshirt on July 11, 2012, 09:42:20 PM
Anyone thought about genetically tailored virus warheads once you autopsy an alien race? Of course, there's good RP arguments both for and against it, but leaving the option in...

How about radical biological changes, like converting oxygen breathers to methane breathers? Or engineering to be able to withstand radiation or toxic gasses?
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: crys on July 12, 2012, 04:09:43 AM
i havent attacked population is this game yet, so i dont know how strong thouse radiation warheads are.

i think the problem here is, that thouse attacks would be too strong, that they are game breaking.
propably the same with terraforming enemy worlds.

maybe it would be better, to be less realistic here, then to implement attacks which would eradicate planets with "little" effort

about youre biological changes.
you can already create new races with bio-science, and transform youre ppl into another race.(using titan at full)
changing oxygen breathing to something else - which is not supplaying oxygen should be impossible.
the difference is just to huge
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: Redshirt on July 12, 2012, 04:22:43 PM
Radical biological changes would, of course, be far up the tech chain.

Biological weapons would differ from radiation warheads in that they would leave the existing structures intact, as well as not irradiate the planet (which is a problem afterwards.) I'd personally rather welcome the new species into my empire, but to each their own.
Title: Re: Some more biology research
Post by: ShadowLop on August 17, 2012, 02:54:27 AM
Quote from: Redshirt link=topic=2861. msg51791#msg51791 date=1342128163
Radical biological changes would, of course, be far up the tech chain.

Biological weapons would differ from radiation warheads in that they would leave the existing structures intact, as well as not irradiate the planet (which is a problem afterwards. ) I'd personally rather welcome the new species into my empire, but to each their own.

If bioweapons are implemented, they should have a chance of making the world inhospitable entirely, especially one created as a rush job or with relatively low-tech processes.  A virus engineered to attack species A but not B could potentially mutate to attack both species, meaning your own bioweapon would potentially make the worlds inhospitable to both them and you, as well as potentially destroying the ecosystem.

Even if the virus is safe to your own people, would YOU live and work in cities or buildings that were recently doused in experimental bioweapons without protective infrastructure in place?

A potentially viable alternative would be chemical weapons, which would basically inject various chemicals into the atmosphere, which would need to be extracted out by terraforming equipment.  This would mean that a species under bombardment could potenially fight back by running a mass of terraformers to extract the chemicals (hopefully) faster than the missiles can dump it in.

Quite frankly, there should be no way to conquer a planet without SOME negative effect, whether requiring time and resources to negate your bombing, or damage to either infrastructure or ecology.