Author Topic: Crusade - Comments Thread  (Read 45044 times)

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Offline Father Tim

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Re: Crusade - Comments Thread
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2019, 08:38:01 AM »
I have always relied 100% (minus planetary missile silos) on ground troops to instantly suppress the unrest generated by my completely unprotected* colony populations.  I don't expect that to change in C# Aurora 2020 v1.

- - -

*When my fleet moves elsewhere, I mean.  The point is to never have to worry about keeping guns back to guard planets;  my fleet is mobile warfare.
 
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Offline Jovus

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Re: Crusade - Comments Thread
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2019, 09:35:53 AM »
Also, there's an argument to be made that, at least at certain sizes, the tax paid on time-to-build a ship is made up for with the increased combat viability of having all that tonnage in one place. Armour and shields both become a lower percentage of total tonnage weight (at least, I think armour does, at certain breakpoints); you're less likely to pay tax in the form of suboptimal crew space allotments (and it's negligible, percentage-wise, if you do). With the changes in how shock and weapon overpenetration work, higher tonnage is much less likely to suffer shock damage at all, and in reduced amounts. A single 2HTK ship component is better than 2 1HTK ship components, and so forth.

Anyway, I don't think the comments to Steve's AAR should turn into an argument about which is better somehow, because it doesn't matter (build to taste) and this isn't the place anyhow. I was just making a case for building the ships bigger in this AAR particularly, both for greater verisimilitude-for-source, and so that Steve could test how his rules interactions work out with ships outside his usual build envelopes.
 

Offline Hazard

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Re: Crusade - Comments Thread
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2019, 12:08:37 PM »
While true, it's still much easier to support 3 or 4 5k ton vessels than a single 15 or 20 k ton vessel in the same system. If only because you need to ship in less maintenance support, or can rotate them out without having to deal with potential rising political unrest because your ship is no longer in the system and will not return until it has completed its maintenance cycle and sailed back.

It's very much a question of how you want to handle your colonies though, and the specific requirements of your empire.
 
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Offline Jovus

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Re: Crusade - Comments Thread
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2019, 01:26:17 PM »
sailed back.

Ermagersh. I think my next campaign (when C# comes out) might just be a Spelljammer one. Thanks for the inspiration.
 

Offline DEEPenergy

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Re: Crusade - Comments Thread
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2019, 04:20:10 PM »
Looking forward to more. I noticed your ship designs you posted don't display of the weapon's damage and the fire control sensor accuracy anymore, is it intentional?
 

Offline Father Tim

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Re: Crusade - Comments Thread
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2019, 04:33:23 PM »
Looking forward to more. I noticed your ship designs you posted don't display of the weapon's damage and the fire control sensor accuracy anymore, is it intentional?

Particle Lance damage doesn't vary, so it's not displayed in the same way as lasers or rail guns.  I believe the "V4" in the weapon's name is a reference to it doing 4 damage.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Crusade - Comments Thread
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2019, 05:29:32 PM »
While true, it's still much easier to support 3 or 4 5k ton vessels than a single 15 or 20 k ton vessel in the same system. If only because you need to ship in less maintenance support, or can rotate them out without having to deal with potential rising political unrest because your ship is no longer in the system and will not return until it has completed its maintenance cycle and sailed back.

It's very much a question of how you want to handle your colonies though, and the specific requirements of your empire.

In C# Aurora it is the same support needed for one 15kt ship as it is 3 5kt ships.

Although, for garrison duty I would never use large ships at all... small FAC or fighters are far more effective for that in general anyway because you are operating from a secure power base and not roaming the stars where you need both range and comfort for the crew.

There is a role to play for all kinds of ships. It is generally when you stare yourself blind on only one concept where you start finding big flaws or weaknesses to exploit in some way. That is also why I never really see all small or large ships or all specialised or generalist ships in my campaigns but a healthy mix of all kinds of ships mostly based on a organic development of doctrine due to potential enemies capabilities and the surrounding needs.

If you have the infrastructure and yards you would in general want one super big ship at 100kt rather than 10 10kt ships, but that is rarely possible in practical terms... the drawback is of course that one ship can only be at one place at a time where 10 ships are way more flexible. But in a showdown one big ship is almost always going to be more powerful. This then obviously come at a price of needing more resources to build up the infrastructure and time for such a fleet to grow and mature. This is why it is wise to invest in both small, medium and large ships in general. It is not stupid or unwise to use smaller ships and neither is it stupid to build large space hulk like ships either. It all depends on the conditions.
 

Offline Hazard

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Re: Crusade - Comments Thread
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2019, 06:12:09 PM »
In C# Aurora it is the same support needed for one 15kt ship as it is 3 5kt ships.

An understandable but erroneous conclusion.

While there's a much smaller gap between the logistical pressures between a large ship and a fleet of the same total weight of smaller ships, it's there. 3 5kt ships can effectively be fielded with only 5 kt in maintenance capacity, with 1 in overhaul, 1 in transit and 1 doing whatever useful thing you want to use the ships for. This is in contrast to the single 15kt ship with the same level of maintenance facilities, which is more or less stuck in overhaul or running out its maintenance clock, suffering ever escalating demands on MSP and other logistical support.

When it comes to designing and building a force you can field, you can't design and build a force meant to be 3 times or more larger than your maintenance capacity unless that force is effectively not meant to come home to be overhauled and maintained.

You can actually do that, with ships designed with a maintenance lifetime of a decade or more that are never upgraded, only scrapped and replaced. This is generally what you do with military stations anyway. But most fleets aren't designed with this level of disposability in mind, so most fleets are going to need more than 1/3rd of the total fleet weight in maintenance capacity, and depending on many factors, possibly substantially more.

Although, for garrison duty I would never use large ships at all... small FAC or fighters are far more effective for that in general anyway because you are operating from a secure power base and not roaming the stars where you need both range and comfort for the crew.

Changes in sensor mechanics make smallcraft swarms less viable due to being detected earlier. They're decent PPV for their weight and highly modular in deployment numbers though, which makes it easier to tailor to the colony's PPV demands.

If you have the infrastructure and yards you would in general want one super big ship at 100kt rather than 10 10kt ships, but that is rarely possible in practical terms... the drawback is of course that one ship can only be at one place at a time where 10 ships are way more flexible. But in a showdown one big ship is almost always going to be more powerful. This then obviously come at a price of needing more resources to build up the infrastructure and time for such a fleet to grow and mature. This is why it is wise to invest in both small, medium and large ships in general. It is not stupid or unwise to use smaller ships and neither is it stupid to build large space hulk like ships either. It all depends on the conditions.

Spinal mounts and Particle Lances do not turn ships of substantially smaller size than their target into the capital ship murderers that are VB6 meson/microwave smallcraft swarms, but it does make them a rather credible threat, especially against early armour dependent ships. The particle lance's ability to burn through en entire armour column to spend all of its remaining power on internal damage is not to be underestimated. Shields change the equation considerably however; shock damage aside, they're effectively an armour column as large as the total rating of the shield. That doesn't help much against missiles, which tend to wash over the armour layers and wear them away anyway, but against something that has good piercing against thick armour has more trouble with that.

And those 10 10kt ships get ten shots per round until a ship is forced to disengage, while the 100kt ships probably only gets 1 shot per round, if it has a spinal weapon.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Crusade - Comments Thread
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2019, 06:50:05 PM »
In regard to sensors then the fact that small sensors now a way more powerful will offset the fact that smaller resolution sensors are better. Small size sensors are even stronger now so a small ship can generally see the larger ship before itself is spotted and for a much cheaper price in both resources and research. So small ships will become way more impact full in C# Aurora than they ever was before.

I certainly agree that smaller ships have a flexibility that larger ships does not. But in general larger ships will be more powerful for the same tonnage and resources put into them if you only consider the ship itself and not everything else you need to do to get them there.

And those 10 10kt ships get ten shots per round until a ship is forced to disengage, while the 100kt ships probably only gets 1 shot per round, if it has a spinal weapon.

Yes, spinal weapons is one of the aces of smaller ships... although most longer ranged weapons are (even if not spinal mounted) caped at the range of the fire-control anyway. So even a very large ship will be able to carry quite a few other heavy lasers or beam weapons to use. A large ship like that would likely not be a pure beam ship either, that would be kind of a waste. The whole point with such a ship would be its general purpose nature, it is one of the strength of such ships.

You might also find that in a rather even fight the shield strength on ships might just be too strong at extreme ranges no matter what you do unless ships involved are basically all beam oriented that is.

The armour depth between a 10kt ship and a 100kt ship are more the twice the depth for the same armour weight. In a design that I had for an example the 10Kt had 6 layers of armour for 10.6% total size and the 100kt ship 12 levels for 9.6% of its size in armour. It is quite a difference in durability in terms of deep impact weapons. You then also have the resistance to chock damage in addition to that effect. Another rather important detail are damage control which can be quite effective on large ships and very important in long range conflicts or conflicts that drags out on time.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2019, 07:22:04 PM by Jorgen_CAB »
 

Online Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Crusade - Comments Thread
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2019, 05:19:41 PM »
Looking forward to more. I noticed your ship designs you posted don't display of the weapon's damage and the fire control sensor accuracy anymore, is it intentional?

You can turn them on/off now if desired, so I had them off to shorten the design summary in my word doc :)
 

Offline Hazard

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Re: Crusade - Comments Thread
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2019, 10:10:05 AM »
You know, one of the least realistic bits of Aurora is the establishing colonies phase, especially early on. Sure, let's just move 0.1% of the global population off world to a completely virgin planet without any atmosphere or hydrosphere and completely without any settlement planning prior to dropping off the infrastructure and population.

I don't mind, if only because 'send in some hundred pioneers to survey non-TN materials and constraints, develop a plan of action to build up a new colony, then send in the off world construction crews with their thousands of personnel and support equipment to actually build the physical colony, while recruiting new colonists and training them for their new environment and only then send in the million or so new colonists', is boring and too much work.
 

Offline Bremen

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Re: Crusade - Comments Thread
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2019, 11:58:40 AM »
Ah, the always tricky phase where you're peacefully expanding with no contact yet and have to wrestle with the guns vs butter choice of spending more on economic expansion or military defense (which will likely be obsolete with the next few tech advances anyways). Of course, being Warhammer Imperium inspired, it's no surprise this campaign is leaning heavily on the military aspect :P
 

Online Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Crusade - Comments Thread
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2019, 12:20:51 PM »
Ah, the always tricky phase where you're peacefully expanding with no contact yet and have to wrestle with the guns vs butter choice of spending more on economic expansion or military defense (which will likely be obsolete with the next few tech advances anyways). Of course, being Warhammer Imperium inspired, it's no surprise this campaign is leaning heavily on the military aspect :P

Yes :)

Out of all my campaigns, I think this one has the largest military in proportion to the economy. I don't I mentioned it anywhere yet but C# Aurora has a lower chance of NPR and spoiler generation in the first few systems you explore, allowing a little expansion before you run into something (most of the time anyway). The chance gradually increases with more systems and reaches normal between 10-20 systems, depending on the type of contact. That should make venturing into space early a more attractive option.
 
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Offline Titanian

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Re: Crusade - Comments Thread
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2019, 09:53:53 AM »
I don't I mentioned it anywhere yet but C# Aurora has a lower chance of NPR and spoiler generation in the first few systems you explore, allowing a little expansion before you run into something (most of the time anyway).
How does that work in starts with multiple nations? Do nation A and B, both starting from Earth, get their own counter? Can this be turned off?
 

Online Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Crusade - Comments Thread
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2019, 12:21:36 PM »
I don't I mentioned it anywhere yet but C# Aurora has a lower chance of NPR and spoiler generation in the first few systems you explore, allowing a little expansion before you run into something (most of the time anyway).
How does that work in starts with multiple nations? Do nation A and B, both starting from Earth, get their own counter? Can this be turned off?

It is the total number of systems known to player races, excluding Sol. No flag at the moment.
 
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