Author Topic: Questions about the Wealth System  (Read 3823 times)

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Offline Balibar (OP)

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Questions about the Wealth System
« on: February 02, 2010, 08:15:09 AM »
I find the Wealth window to be confusing.  At the outset, The income ledger includes what I assume to be starting funds.  It appears to show those funds increasing even though expenses exceed income.  After one month, the situation becomes clearer: the income side shows a lower number than the expenses side.  It would be helpful if there was a column for projected total wealth which would allow one to easily see how long the current deficit is sustainable.  

Is there any way to adjust the tax rate?  If so, what are the consequences?  

I visualize the econoomic pie as follows:
1.  What is labeled as agricultural sector represents necessary production or people die.  It, of course, includes agriculture but also would include other things such as water, clothing, housing, etc.  Does each planet have a different factor for productivity in this sector?  Can the player affect the productivity of this sector through research or installations or governor bonuses?  

2.  What is labeled as service industry represents consumer goods (and services) that people want.  If they are not provided, people do not die but they are less willing to produce the goods that go to the final sector.  It is necessary to realize that the only reason that people engaged in the agriculture sector are willing to spend extra time producing surplus goods beyond their own consumptive needs is that they want what the people in the 'service' sector make more than they desire additional leisure.  By leisure I mean sleeping in a hammock.  People, of course, will purchase more advanced forms of 'leisure' and will willingly sacrifice time sleeping in the hammock to produce surplus goods to trade for such 'leisure' products.  

Does each planet have a different productivity factor for this sector?  Can the player affect the productivity of this sector by research, installations, governor bonuses or tax rate, etc.  

3.  What is labeled as manufacturing sector represents everything going to the player acting as government.  I like the fact that Aurora limits this sector, eventually, to what the people are willing to pay for in taxes?  While I might label things differently, the Aurora economy makes sense even to an Austrian economist.  I don't have to ask about affecting this sector, because that is what the game is about.  

What do the financial centers do?  I built some and there is an additional income item, but I cannot figure out how that income item is derived.  

Aurora is a natural setting for a commodities market including futures.  At the outset, some minerals are being mined at a greater rate than they are being consumed.  It is quite possible for player activity to exceed the mining production for some minerals as I have found out by making mistakes.  In real life, if the consumption of a mineral was greater than production, prices would go up and there would be incentive to harvest more of that mineral relative to some other mineral.  For example, where is the most efficient place to put the automine at the margin?  Without a price system, there is no way to tell.  Obviously, if one is choosing between two locations with the same minerals, one would place the mine at the site with the greater accessibilty.  That would obviously maximize return.  But what about the situation where Asteroid #1 has Duranium accessibility 1 and Mercassium accessibility 0.5, while Asteroid #2 has Duranium accessibilty 0.5 and Mercassium 1.  In this case it depends whether Duranium or Mercassium is the more valuable.  Without a price system, one cannot tell.  Oh, one can tell in obvious situations where there are one or two minerals involved and only one pressing need.  But what about comparing two asteroids, or a planet with 5 different minerals all of different accessibilities?  With a price system, one (or Aurora) could display the total marginal rate of return from the mining site and the player could decide which is the best location.

The player would be a natural to both write futures contracts and buy them.  Any mineral in shortage, the player could buy a futures contract and accept delivery of that mineral.  Civilians would write the contracts and deliver minerals.  Any mineral in excess at Earth provides the player with the opportunity to write a contract, sell it to a Civilian and deliver that mineral to fulfill the contract.
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: Questions about the Wealth System
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2010, 08:42:16 AM »
This ones' for Steve, but a few quick comments (great questions, btw).

1)  The civie sector is a work in progress.  In the original versions, there was no civie sector - everything was player controlled.  Then Steve put in wealth as an abstraction to (IIRC) put another limit on "resources" that players had to juggle.  This also gave an incentive for colonizing non-mineral planets.  So the answer to all your "are the knobs to tweak" question is "no".

2)  That being said, Financial Institutions are the knob you can tweak :-)  Building an FI creates additional wealth stream, as if you'd added population (I can never remember how much).

3)  I think Steve is moving in the direction of market-based stuff, but building a full-blown economy simulator with feed-back loops and which doesn't blow up (into inflationary or deflationary spirals) is hard, and the civie economy, in essense, exists as an environment for generating naval battles/strategies.  I imagine that generating the AI to intelligently buy or sell futures contracts is also very hard - I've never had a good idea about how to do so whenever I've toyed with the idea.

I'm not trying to be negative - I like your questions and I think they push the game's economic sector in directions that would be good (assuming zero cost for the improvements), and I think Steve's going in that direction.  I'm just saying that it's hard.

John
 

Offline Balibar (OP)

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Re: Questions about the Wealth System
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2010, 09:43:06 AM »
Quote from: "sloanjh"
3)  I think Steve is moving in the direction of market-based stuff, but building a full-blown economy simulator with feed-back loops and which doesn't blow up (into inflationary or deflationary spirals) is hard,
The key is to make the economy based on tangible wealth rather than abstract money.  Barter systems never blow up.  If money is used only as a medium of exchange to facilitate economic calculation, no problems should occur.  It is when the environment creates money out of nothing that problems occur.  

Quote from: "sloanjh"
and the civie economy, in essense, exists as an environment for generating naval battles/strategies.  I imagine that generating the AI to intelligently buy or sell futures contracts is also very hard - I've never had a good idea about how to do so whenever I've toyed with the idea.

I'm not trying to be negative - I like your questions and I think they push the game's economic sector in directions that would be good (assuming zero cost for the improvements), and I think Steve's going in that direction.  I'm just saying that it's hard.

John
Thank you for the thoughtful reply.  I agree with you that it would be hard to pull off.  How does one model how much value an individual places on sleeping in a hammock?  Let alone determining how much extra value one places on having a beer rather than sleeping in a hammock.  Any model would have to be arbitrary, but the key would be to make Civs desire sleeping in the hammock rather than willing to work as long as a task is there.  There would have to be a reason to induce the Civ to work in the Naval Shipyard rather than being unemployed.  By providing increasing 'value' to entertainment, one would get the Civs to work longer hours and produce greater surpluses to exhange for their 'Service Sector' goods.  It would probably be best to start with a very low value on sleeping in the hammock to avoid drastic changes in the game, then tweak things upward.
 

Offline Father Tim

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Re: Questions about the Wealth System
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2010, 10:04:30 AM »
1.  Agricultural sector is 5% * colony cost, minimum 5%.  So you can reduce the size by terraforming.

2.  Service sector increases as total population increases, so smaller colonies will be more 'efficient' manufactories as they will have smaller service sectors.

3. Financial Centres generate the equivalent wealth as 1 million population of your race.

The amount of wealth generated by 1 million pop is dependant on the 'Wealth Creation' tech, found in the Construction & Production tree.  This represents efficiency more than tax rates, so there's no ability to raise or lower taxes for temporary incentives - though you can run a national debt, which reduces the efficiency of your industry & production in direct proportion to the debt's size.  The reduced production reduces the amount of wealth needed each time period to pay for that production - ignore it long enough and your economy balances itself at a rate where it can afford to pay for all its expenditures.
 

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Questions about the Wealth System
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2010, 10:18:40 AM »
Quote from: "Father Tim"

The amount of wealth generated by 1 million pop is dependant on the 'Wealth Creation' tech, found in the Construction & Production tree.  This represents efficiency more than tax rates, so there's no ability to raise or lower taxes for temporary incentives - though you can run a national debt, which reduces the efficiency of your industry & production in direct proportion to the debt's size.  The reduced production reduces the amount of wealth needed each time period to pay for that production - ignore it long enough and your economy balances itself at a rate where it can afford to pay for all its expenditures.

Just to prevent confusion :)
I belive the "Wealth creation tech" is now called "Expand Civillian Economy by 20%"
Ralph Hoenig, Germany
 

Offline Balibar (OP)

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Re: Questions about the Wealth System
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2010, 10:31:19 AM »
Quote from: "Father Tim"
2.  Service sector increases as total population increases, so smaller colonies will be more 'efficient' manufactories as they will have smaller service sectors.
This is realistic.  It also gives the player a reason to form new colonies.  

Quote from: "Father Tim"
3. Financial Centres generate the equivalent wealth as 1 million population of your race.

The amount of wealth generated by 1 million pop is dependant on the 'Wealth Creation' tech, found in the Construction & Production tree.  This represents efficiency more than tax rates, so there's no ability to raise or lower taxes for temporary incentives - though you can run a national debt, which reduces the efficiency of your industry & production in direct proportion to the debt's size.  The reduced production reduces the amount of wealth needed each time period to pay for that production - ignore it long enough and your economy balances itself at a rate where it can afford to pay for all its expenditures.
Thanks!  That was the number I was looking for.  So, you get much more bang on Earth by researching 'Wealth Creation' which is a proxy for productivity than by building Financial Centers.  It would take 50 financial centers to be as effective as a 10% improvement in 'Wealth Creation' with a population of 500 million.  But a small colony would get more bang with a Financial Center.
 

Offline Lafe Sparhawk

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Re: Questions about the Wealth System
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2010, 03:54:04 PM »
" But a small colony would get more bang with a Financial Center."

You must consider also that the financial center must be built on the said colony. Depending on how high a population you consider a new colony becomes a small colony, the ammount of manufacturing you can support makes the project prohibitively long.

Lafe
 

Offline Balibar (OP)

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Re: Questions about the Wealth System
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2010, 09:33:19 PM »
Quote from: "Lafe Sparhawk"
" But a small colony would get more bang with a Financial Center."

You must consider also that the financial center must be built on the said colony. Depending on how high a population you consider a new colony becomes a small colony, the ammount of manufacturing you can support makes the project prohibitively long.

Lafe
Good point!
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: Questions about the Wealth System
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2010, 11:58:17 PM »
Quote from: "Balibar"
So, you get much more bang on Earth by researching 'Wealth Creation' which is a proxy for productivity than by building Financial Centers.  It would take 50 financial centers to be as effective as a 10% improvement in 'Wealth Creation' with a population of 500 million.

Depends :-)

John
 

Offline Balibar (OP)

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Re: Questions about the Wealth System
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2010, 07:36:33 AM »
Quote from: "sloanjh"
The benefits from both wealth creation and financial centers are global.  

John
All of your points were very good ones.  Thank you for clearing the above issue up.  But are the effects of financial centers really global?  Let's say I have two colonies and on one colony my governor has a 20% Wealth bonus.  If I put a financial center on the colony with the bonus, do I see the effect of 1 million colonists on that colony?  Or do I see the effect of 1 million colonists averaged over the Empire?
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: Questions about the Wealth System
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2010, 08:56:50 AM »
Quote from: "Balibar"
Quote from: "sloanjh"
The benefits from both wealth creation and financial centers are global.  

John
All of your points were very good ones.  Thank you for clearing the above issue up.  But are the effects of financial centers really global?  Let's say I have two colonies and on one colony my governor has a 20% Wealth bonus.  If I put a financial center on the colony with the bonus, do I see the effect of 1 million colonists on that colony?  Or do I see the effect of 1 million colonists averaged over the Empire?

It's just like putting a mine on a colony with a governor with a mining bonus - the governor's bonus applies to the production units that he governs.  (At least I assume that this is how Steve has coded this up.)  So when you're trying to decide where to build a new financial center, the best place is a colony with high wealth bonus.  This is different from the financial center vs. wealth efficiency trade-off (neglecting the 2nd order effect of the governors bonus affecting the ROI any financial centers that are built on his colony).

John
 

Offline Balibar (OP)

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Re: Questions about the Wealth System
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2010, 10:05:39 AM »
Quote from: "sloanjh"
It's just like putting a mine on a colony with a governor with a mining bonus - the governor's bonus applies to the production units that he governs.  (At least I assume that this is how Steve has coded this up.)  So when you're trying to decide where to build a new financial center, the best place is a colony with high wealth bonus.  This is different from the financial center vs. wealth efficiency trade-off (neglecting the 2nd order effect of the governors bonus affecting the ROI any financial centers that are built on his colony).

John
Thank you.  I am on the same page now.
 

Offline Lurker

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Re: Questions about the Wealth System
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2020, 02:03:43 AM »
What happens when i make wealth below zero?
How deep i can make wealth below zero?
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Questions about the Wealth System
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2020, 05:15:47 AM »
What happens when i make wealth below zero?
How deep i can make wealth below zero?

I think you win the prize for the oldest resurrected thread :)

When wealth goes below zero, it reduces the Economic Production Modifier (on the Population summary near the bottom of the middle column). This is calculated as -(Current Wealth / Annual Wealth).

For example, if you annual wealth is 10,000 and your current wealth is -2000, the Economic Production Modifier would be 80%. This modifier affects all of your production (factories, shipyards, etc.). The minimum value is 1%.
 
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Questions about the Wealth System
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2020, 01:24:53 AM »
Quote
This modifier affects all of your production (factories, shipyards, etc. )
Mb i see something wrong, but it's look as no effect on mining(I se no effect on mining page).
Mining is not a production or i make mistake?
Quote
I think you win the prize for the oldest resurrected thread :)
I have the power  ;D