Defence against AMM swarms (vs ship)?

[AnthonyT (OP)]

I'm new to the game.  This is only my second play, with the first being cut short after a few hours.

I'm flummoxed by a rash of AMM fire abraiding my ships to nothing, whereas the 700+ size 3-5 missiles preceeding this only left a few small dents.

First encounter with this enemy was our survey ships being scrubed out by clouds of missiles (really!? one each would have been sufficient).  So I built my first military ships in response: my offensive tech is purely laser, so I tried point-defense heavy.  Second encounter and each paired-salvo of 14 size4 missiles ravaged my new ships, ending the battle in minutes at a range of 40mkm.  Though I learned through that experience that I needed to assign weapon systems to fire-control.  Heehee, oops. . .

Now I'm on round three.  A couple more ships with more PD turrets and everyone refitted with shields (Delta300/14, varying from 15-25 strength).  FIVE hours of clicking the time increments and crashing through these paired salvos, coming in at a rate of 28 per 5 or 10 seconds. . .  I was only scratched.

Then at 14mkm. . .  salvos of 53 size1 AMM, also at 5-10s intervals.  I hope this requires significantly advanced tech to achieve, because there is nothing I can figure out to stop it.  First, PD is useless.  Where I'd shoot down at least 20 of the size3-5 missiles, here I shoot maybe 8 of these AMM. . .  leaving 45 to dissipate shields in one go and erode armor.

After more than 3000 of these AMM, my fleet of 12 is now spread in a line of wreckage across 2mkm of space on a vector toward these rock-slingers.  I'm now 7 hours of time (IRL) into this click-fest, with 3 ships remaining. . .  pretty much held together by sputtering shields.

And I wonder: WTF can I do against these AMM swarms? I keep thinking that sufficient defense of some form should make them insignificant to ships. . .  but I've read of nothing that could stop this erosion.  Having 20 layers of armor and plenty of ships to share the burden I guess. . .  just crap that they'll whittle it down to paper even if it's enough to get in close.  (And at this point I wouldn't be surprised if these ships turned on some mega death beams at 1mkm, before I get a shot in. . . )

They are 6 ships totalling 107kT mass.  I'm not familiar with missile tech yet, but looking on these boards this kind of missile output looks very high.  And I couldn't find any hint of people using (or coping with) AMM versus ship.  Am I missing something that does make it insignificant to ships?

What would you do to fly through a fountain of gravel? Or are these aliens probably way beyond me? I thought I had them after riding out their missile onslaught. . .  I can't switch to their game and try to out-missile them at range. . .  hell, I can see that no missiles would get anywhere near them.

For reference as to my tech (well, fresh from the labs are one level up in everything), here is one of my ships.

Code: [Select]

Sovereign class Battleship    12,400 tons     1229 Crew     2545 BP      TCS 248  TH 1020  EM 1050
5483 km/s     Armour 8-47     Shields 35-300     Sensors 12/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 11     PPV 59.46
Maint Life 2.15 Years     MSP 2128    AFR 1230%    IFR 17.1%    1YR 615    5YR 9224    Max Repair 115 MSP

Magneto-plasma Drive E7 (17)    Power 80    Fuel Use 70%    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres    Range 20.7 billion km   (43 days at full power)
Delta R300/17.5 Shields (14)   Total Fuel Cost  245 Litres per day

20cm C5 Ultraviolet Laser (6)    Range 256,000km     TS: 5483 km/s     Power 10-5     RM 4    ROF 10        10 10 10 10 8 6 5 5 4 4
Twin 10cm C3 Near Ultraviolet Laser Turret (3x2)    Range 90,000km     TS: 16000 km/s     Power 6-6     RM 3    ROF 5        3 3 3 2 1 1 1 1 1 0
Fire Control S06 48-16000 (1)    Max Range: 96,000 km   TS: 16000 km/s     90 79 69 58 48 38 27 17 6 0
Fire Control S06 128-6000 (1)    Max Range: 256,000 km   TS: 6000 km/s     96 92 88 84 80 77 73 69 65 61
Stellarator Fusion Reactor Technology PB-1 (8)     Total Power Output 48    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Active Search Sensor MR3-R1 (1)     GPS 28     Range 3.1m km    Resolution 1
Active Search Sensor MR101-R120 (1)     GPS 10080     Range 101.2m km    Resolution 120
Thermal Sensor TH2-12 (1)     Sensitivity 12     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  12m km

ECM 10


[blue emu]

There are a few ways to deal with this sort of thing.

1) Soak up their fire with decoy missiles.

Design a slow, super-long-range missile, and build a ship with active sensors and fire controls to match. Sit way back... over 100 m-km away... and start firing one-missile salvos at the enemy. You might even want to put active sensors on your decoy missiles, to make sure that he sees them. He should start firing AMMs at them as they come close, and since you are only firing one missile in each salvo, he will waste 53 of his own AMMs to kill each decoy. With a combat-load of a few hundred of these decoys, you should be able to run him entirely out of missiles.

Of course, this requires the tech to produce sensors and fire controls with a range in excess of 100 m-km.

2) Soak up their fire with Fighters.

A bit suicidal, but you can build hundreds of cheap, small, fast fighters and pack them into Carriers, equipped with one ASM each. Launch them from well beyond your opponent's range. Each Fighter should draw a full salvo (53 missiles) before it dies. If he fails to notice them and kill them, then you can send in hundreds of single-missile ASM salvos, which should be enough to kill him since each enemy FC can only target one incoming salvo at a time.

5) Soak up their fire with armored Civilian ships.

Use your civilian shipyards to build a few ships with nothing but engines, twenty-four (or so) layers of armor, and a one-hull-square active sensor (one HS is the largest civilian sensor allowed). Send them in ten or twenty million km ahead of your fleet. They should soak up thousands of rounds of AMM fire. A bit exploitive... but so is an avalanche of AMMs.

[AnthonyT (OP)]

A bit exploitive. . .  but so is an avalanche of AMMs.

Yes, all of these are along a line-of thought I hadn't considered.  Forcing the opponent's hand (especially when the opponent lacks learning!).
Good point though that the avalanche of AMMs is exploitive too.  I wasn't sure if I was missing something which would make such a tactic pointless versus ships (force/repulse field -- somewhere in tractor-beam tech? Or better armor which is impervious to small damage?).  So it's good to know I just gotta deal with it -- thank you for the suggested strategies!

[HaliRyan]

If you haven't done so, turn on SM mode and check the space-time bubble box on the contacts tab of the main window. It'll cut down a lot on your waiting time (the game will only advance time in that system rather than the whole galaxy, so a lot less work for the game to do).

As for dealing with AMM swarms, it's a tough one. I've had some success using heavy shields because they regenerate as you advance, but it's hard to fit enough of them. Lots of point defense spread out between your fleet and set to fire at point blank, and if you're using lasers for your main battery you can try setting them to area denial mode if they have decent range.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I find the main weakness of AMM spam is the short range compared to shipkiller missiles.   

AMMs are already basically kitted out as close range assault missiles and you can't close the gap in a meaningfully short enough time.

After 7 hrs im a bit surprised he still has ammo left.   Tho some of these NPRs seem to have real deep pockets in terms of magazines.

[Vynadan]

Just my opinion, but I find out'thinking' the AI in terms of fire control assignments to be an exploit. Even if they'd have only one fire control on their entire ship, they wouldn't actually stick all fifty AMM tubes onto it for a single missile.
On the other hand, using AMMs as offensive use is a last-resort kind of thing I find myself doing every now and then, too. I've also read it in various fictions and it's strategically and rule wise perfectly fine and entirely un-exploity.

In your position I'd go with anything of the following: A yet even larger PD fleet, armoured decoy ships, engagement range fleet movements to slowly wear them down with minimal lsoses, too many ships to care about the losses, or perhaps try a stealth and / or minefield approach.
From a roleplaying perspective I'd avoid a fighter suicide run, but mentalities differ.

[Mel Vixen]

I use Area defense Ships also called "Bricks" around here. These are just a big and slow ships with lots and lots of turrets with the fitting firecontrols for each turret. Instead of turrets you can also use railguns which make aslo a decent PD. Normaly i have in a taskgroup 3 or 4 of them with each having 20 railguns.

What also might help you is ECM. Especially the higher levels should help against this AMM pest.

[Panopticon]

There is a way to do this without exploiting, simply stay out of their range, AMM are generally short ranged and even relatively low tech missiles will outrange them. Use small salvos that they have to reply to and when they start running off to reload then close the distance and blow them away with your lasers.

I admit that would take a bit of time if you don't have any missile tech at all, but needs must as they say.

Alternatively, you could throw wave after wave of your own men at them until they reach their preset kill limit and shut down, then kill them with whatever is left.

[blue emu]

Much depends on just which opponent he's facing, though. In my first real battle, I came under fire by massive salvos of size-1 AMMs from over 50 m-km away... about three times the range of my own best ASM. The opponents were also moving at about 250% of my own best speed, so any attempt to close the range after they had run out of ammo would have been futile.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

If you are fighting things that outrange you and that dont miss, the kill limit is your only option.   Any close assault fleet is going to end up in a situation where it has to grin and bear it, and hope you have enough numbers and toughness.   

Alternatively you could just wait for them to hop through a jump point you are sitting near. .  or shut down your drives and hope to ambush them.  ^^

@Blue Emu - that just sounds like massively out teched. .  Oo.  Not much you can do there, ever.   

[Mel Vixen]

Actually he could go with cloaking to get in range with whatever beamweapon he might have without being seen. I had once a small beam-armed cloaked fighter with a 2 Lightseconds 2 points of damage paticlegun. Used a couple of them to ambush a patrolling *spoiler*.

[AnthonyT (OP)]

Thanks for the input, guys!

I had recently started on cloaking tech, so that was something I was considering but didn't know what to expect from cloaking. . .  based on some positive feedback that it might help in this kind of situation, I'll push that research a little harder.

Also, since I can sit so comfortably at 20mkm (what happened to 'Gm' by the way? I guess it's too unfamiliar and strange, hehe) and farther I was thinking I really do need some missile tech to lob back at them.  The result though will be a bit unsatisfactory in that it will just drain their AMM.  Though if they have more of that than the missiles I bring to play, or if they have some energy-based PD I could still be in for a rumble.

So. . .  Plan A: I'll try like Panopticon says, or similiar to blue emu's #1.  Though I'll try to make missiles which are 'real', as much as that will be possible within a few years starting from zilch for missle tech. . . !

Plan B: The Klingon path.

BTW, these guys are my neighbors in Ross.  The other three jumps from Sol are barren, and I'm having Duranium issues.  I don't like the idea of hostile neighbors who can obliterate me.  Not my comfort zone. 

[TheDeadlyShoe]

On the plus side, missile spam doesn't cost duranium. ^^

I would still use size 1-2 missiles. If he's going to play the quantity game you should too.  And low tech missiles are cheaper anyway

[Panopticon]

I also just realized that armored missiles might be a decent option, depending on your salvo size.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Does that even work on AMM hits?