Author Topic: Active Sensors and Fire Controls  (Read 3047 times)

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Offline Hyfrydle (OP)

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Active Sensors and Fire Controls
« on: June 09, 2010, 06:57:24 AM »
I'm now on my third actual game of Aurora and wanted to get down in writing my thoughts on how sensors and fire controls work to make sure I've got it right and also to help anyone else unsure about this area of the game.

So when designing a ship the active sensor for detecting other ships needs to be as long range as possible within the constraints of the hull space and ship size. This sensor needs a resolution suitable for the types of ships you may come across. At the start of the game you have no knowledge of alien ships tonnage so what do people use for there first sensor? Also if for example the senor has a resolution to detect ships of 10,000 tons is it also able to detect ships less than or more than this?

So in a typical first contact situation the active sensor will hopefully pick up the contact first and from this data regarding the estimated speed and tonnage is acquired. Also if the unkown ship has EM sensors the active sensor will be detected if it's in range. If the ship is hostile then moving within range is the next step.

With anti-ship and anti-missile weapons the fire control range is the effective range of the weapon which in the case of missiles needs to be at least the max range if possible more to allow for future designs. Once the target enters the weapons fire control and it is within a reolution that allows detection then the target shows up on the combat screen and the weapon linked to that fire control can be fired.

The above works the same for anti-missile weapons but in this case the range is shorter and the resolution is set to 1 to allow detection of missiles. What is the optimum range for an anti-missile weapon?

Multiple weapons can be linked to the same fire control which means those weapons will fire on the same target. It is a good idea to have more than one fire control on a ship to allow for multiple fleets.

This is my understanding of the basics of active sensors and fire controls and how they work in a first contact and hostile situation. One last thing the ranges of the active sensors and fire controls can be toggled on the display tab this makes visualising the combat much easier.

Hope this makes sense and doesn't have too many errors. Please feel free to let me know about any missing details and with a bit of luck we can come up with something for the Wiki and the strategy guide been put together by Lord Thag. Something I would find useful is a step by step example combat with screenshots and descriptions from a game in progress showing actions from first contact to the resolution.

Well that's enough for now.
 

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Active Sensors and Fire Controls
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2010, 10:22:27 AM »
Quote from: "Hyfrydle"
I'm now on my third actual game of Aurora and wanted to get down in writing my thoughts on how sensors and fire controls work to make sure I've got it right and also to help anyone else unsure about this area of the game.

So when designing a ship the active sensor for detecting other ships needs to be as long range as possible within the constraints of the hull space and ship size. This sensor needs a resolution suitable for the types of ships you may come across. At the start of the game you have no knowledge of alien ships tonnage so what do people use for there first sensor? Also if for example the senor has a resolution to detect ships of 10,000 tons is it also able to detect ships less than or more than this?

At games start, I usually design sensors that are optimized to detect my own ships. This means, if I don´t have FACs, I won´t put res-20 sensors on my ships until I either meet alien FACs or start building some myself. Same for fighters.

An active sensor can detect any ship of its resolution´s size or larger out to its full range.
Smaller ships are detected out to (Max Range) * ((Ship Size) / (resolution)) squared. I.e. a res-100 sensor can detect a size 50 ship (half size) at one quarter max. range.

Quote from: "Hyfrydle"
So in a typical first contact situation the active sensor will hopefully pick up the contact first and from this data regarding the estimated speed and tonnage is acquired. Also if the unkown ship has EM sensors the active sensor will be detected if it's in range. If the ship is hostile then moving within range is the next step.

Not sure what you mean by the EM sensor thing, did you mean if the unknow ship has EM EMISSIONS?.
If YOUR ship has EM sensors, it can detect the unknown/enemies ACTIVE sensor (or its active shilds). EM-sensors (and Thermal, for that matter) are strictly passive, even though your tech-level in EM-sensor now play a role in active sensor design.
Also, even passives (EM or Thermal) can tell you the bogey´s speed. Actives will give you a mass/size of the ship.

Quote from: "Hyfrydle"
With anti-ship and anti-missile weapons the fire control range is the effective range of the weapon which in the case of missiles needs to be at least the max range if possible more to allow for future designs. Once the target enters the weapons fire control and it is within a reolution that allows detection then the target shows up on the combat screen and the weapon linked to that fire control can be fired.

Basicly correct. You can (or should, in the case missiles) only open fire when the target is in range of both, the weapon and the firecontrol.

Quote from: "Hyfrydle"
The above works the same for anti-missile weapons but in this case the range is shorter and the resolution is set to 1 to allow detection of missiles. What is the optimum range for an anti-missile weapon?

Well, the longer the better :). Early game, at least 1 mio km, later on, I try to get 2.5 to 3 mkm of range. Usually, my escorts carry Anti-Missile-Actives with 1.5 to 2 mkm range, to save space and a dedicated fleet scout or two per squadron carry a 2.5 to 3.5 mkm rang actives.
As missile fire controls are a lot smaller than actives, it is easy to put 3 mkm range MFCs on the escorts, but similar ranged actives would realy put a dent in the space, available for weapons/ammo.

Quote from: "Hyfrydle"
Multiple weapons can be linked to the same fire control which means those weapons will fire on the same target. It is a good idea to have more than one fire control on a ship to allow for multiple fleets.

Anti-missile-work: 1 MFC per 4 to 5 AMM-launcher (The ability to engage a lot of small salvos at the same time)
Anti-ship-work: 1 MFC per 10 to 15 ASM-launcher (You don´t want to split your fire bewtween several destroyers or cruisers, but if you have to engage FACs, engaging several of them simultaneously is realy nice)
Beams: 1 FC per 5 to 10 weapons (same reason as above)

Quote from: "Hyfrydle"
This is my understanding of the basics of active sensors and fire controls and how they work in a first contact and hostile situation. One last thing the ranges of the active sensors and fire controls can be toggled on the display tab this makes visualising the combat much easier.

Hope this makes sense and doesn't have too many errors. Please feel free to let me know about any missing details and with a bit of luck we can come up with something for the Wiki and the strategy guide been put together by Lord Thag. Something I would find useful is a step by step example combat with screenshots and descriptions from a game in progress showing actions from first contact to the resolution.

Well that's enough for now.
Ralph Hoenig, Germany
 

Offline Brian Neumann

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Re: Active Sensors and Fire Controls
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2010, 07:03:57 PM »
Quote
Anti-missile-work: 1 MFC per 4 to 5 AMM-launcher (The ability to engage a lot of small salvos at the same time)
Anti-ship-work: 1 MFC per 10 to 15 ASM-launcher (You don´t want to split your fire bewtween several destroyers or cruisers, but if you have to engage FACs, engaging several of them simultaneously is realy nice)
Beams: 1 FC per 5 to 10 weapons (same reason as above)


As a followup to Ralph's comment, always put two fire controls on a ship.  This gives some backup incase of light damage hitting your fire control.  For missile fire control I will have two as a minimum for each type of fire control on a ship.  If space is a consideration then I will use a smaller size fire control with a shorter range as the backup.

For beam weapons it gets a little more complicated.  In general you will need a couple of different MFC for different roles.  One for long range with a x4 size on the range and x1 on fire control speed, one that is just the opposite for point defense work.  If your ships speed is significantly more than the base fire control speed then you will want to up that on the long range fire control.  I also often put a small backup fire control for point defense work.  X4 speed X.25 range wich gives it a total of 1 hull space.  While not as good as the primary pd fire control it is a nice backup.  I usually put a second fire control for my offensive weapons with the fire control range matched to the longest range weapon on the ship.  It actually is better to have the fire control maxed out for range as this will up your chance to hit once the beam weapons are in range.  This is usually only a problem with the early tech.  By the time you are working with the 5 generation tech you will often have weapons that far outrange your fire control.

Brian
 

Offline bulletstop

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Re: Active Sensors and Fire Controls
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2010, 07:44:45 PM »
I am really trying to understand beam fire control but I can not wrap my head around it. I have met an alien race and their ships move at 4350m/s But my fire control can not hit it. Please take a look at it and tell me where I am going wrong.

Fletcher MK II class Gravsurvey Ship    7,000 tons     639 Crew     3540.4 BP      TCS 140  TH 1462  EM 0
10442 km/s    JR 6-100     Armour 1-32     Shields 0-0     Sensors 11/1/3/3     Damage Control Rating 63     PPV 26
Annual Failure Rate: 130%    IFR: 1.8%    Maint Capacity 948 MSP    Max Repair 675 MSP    Est Time: 1.04 Years

J7000(6-100) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 7000 tons    Distance 100k km     Squadron Size 6
Gas Core Anti-matter Drive E2.85 (6)    Power 243.75    Fuel Use 28.5%    Signature 243.75    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 300,000 Litres    Range 270.7 billion km   (299 days at full power)

Twin 20cm C2.5 Far Ultraviolet Laser Turret (2x2)    Range 480,000km     TS: 12000 km/s     Power 20-5     RM 5    ROF 20        10 10 10 10 10 8 7 6 5 5
CIWS-1000 (2x8)    Range 1000 km     TS: 100000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit
Fire Control S05 240-12500 H50 (1)    Max Range: 480,000 km   TS: 12500 km/s     98 96 94 92 90 88 85 83 81 79
Gas-core Anti-matter Power Plant Technology PB-1.05 AR-2 (1)     Total Power Output 105    Armour 2    Exp 7%

Active Search Sensor MR52-R100 (50%) (1)     GPS 4800     Range 52.8m km    Resolution 100
Thermal Sensor TH1-11 (50%) (1)     Sensitivity 11     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  11m km
Advanced Gravitational Sensors (1)   3 Survey Points Per Hour
Advanced Geological Sensors (1)   3 Survey Points Per Hour

ECCM-3 (1)         ECM 30

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
I know it has a Hugh power plant, but I have not designed a lower power rated reactor.I know this is a simple survey but I feel it needs some defence and based on what I read it should be able to at least shoot back. Thanks again for the help.




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Offline bulletstop

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Re: Active Sensors and Fire Controls
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2010, 08:06:47 PM »
I think I figured out what is wrong, during my last encounter it said that the target had an ecm of 50, my eccm is only 30. I am sorry I did not pick this up sooner.


Bullet
 

Offline martinuzz

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Re: Active Sensors and Fire Controls
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2010, 03:37:48 AM »

Fletcher MK II class Gravsurvey Ship    7,000 tons     639 Crew     3540.4 BP      TCS 140  TH 1462  EM 0
10442 km/s    JR 6-100     Armour 1-32     Shields 0-0     Sensors 11/1/3/3     Damage Control Rating 63     PPV 26
Annual Failure Rate: 130%    IFR: 1.8%    Maint Capacity 948 MSP    Max Repair 675 MSP    Est Time: 1.04 Years

J7000(6-100) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 7000 tons    Distance 100k km     Squadron Size 6
Gas Core Anti-matter Drive E2.85 (6)    Power 243.75    Fuel Use 28.5%    Signature 243.75    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 300,000 Litres    Range 270.7 billion km   (299 days at full power)

Twin 20cm C2.5 Far Ultraviolet Laser Turret (2x2)    Range 480,000km     TS: 12000 km/s     Power 20-5     RM 5    ROF 20        10 10 10 10 10 8 7 6 5 5
CIWS-1000 (2x8)    Range 1000 km     TS: 100000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit
Fire Control S05 240-12500 H50 (1)    Max Range: 480,000 km   TS: 12500 km/s     98 96 94 92 90 88 85 83 81 79
Gas-core Anti-matter Power Plant Technology PB-1.05 AR-2 (1)     Total Power Output 105    Armour 2    Exp 7%

Active Search Sensor MR52-R100 (50%) (1)     GPS 4800     Range 52.8m km    Resolution 100
Thermal Sensor TH1-11 (50%) (1)     Sensitivity 11     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  11m km
Advanced Gravitational Sensors (1)   3 Survey Points Per Hour
Advanced Geological Sensors (1)   3 Survey Points Per Hour

ECCM-3 (1)         ECM 30

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
[/quote

Hehe, your power plant is a bit big indeed. Your ship's lasers only need 2x5 = 10 power every 5 seconds. Your power plant is 10 times larger than needed.

Your fire control is okay for the weapon mounted.
However, I see that you are using a turreted laser. Turrets are big.
What you might want to try and do, is remove the turret, and replace it with non-turreted lasers, seeing your ship has a decent speed to begin with. The freed-up space could be used for extra engines, getting your ships speed up to match your fire-control.

Also, for a gravsurvey ship, as well as for a ship with a jumpdrive, you are quite low on engineering spaces/maintenance supplies. Survey ships are usually out doing their job for quite a while.
More importantly, if your ship suffers some small maintenance failures on duty, and it's mainenance supplies are reduced below 675, the amount needed to repair your ships largest component (in this case, your jumpdrive), your ship will have a problem when it's jumpdrive suffers a maintenance failure. It will be stuck until someone arrives to resupply it.
 

Offline bulletstop

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Re: Active Sensors and Fire Controls
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2010, 05:16:41 AM »
So turret speed should corresponds with Ships Speed? I still can not shoot beam weapons at them and I have eccm 5,also beam control 60k, so I guess I am failing to get beam control. I also designed a 12 rated power plant, I redesigned the ship with 2 installed :).So turrets should only be used on Heavy cruiser and above. my largest ship is heavy cruiser at 24000 tons.
Thanks for the tips on maintenance, I did not think about that. thanks for the tips.



Bullet
 

Offline UnLimiTeD

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Re: Active Sensors and Fire Controls
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2010, 05:47:58 AM »
What does it actually say?
I honestly see no reason you shouldn't be able to shoot at them, unless your out of range, or something weird happening.
An ECM advantage reduces the hit chance for beam weapons by 10% per level, so even with eccm3 you should be able to attack them, just hit less.

As for speed, the weapon tracking speed is either your face FC tracking speed (what you researched) or your ships speed, whichever is higher.
On turrets, it is the Turrets tracking speed instead.
In turn, Turrets need more space for tracking gear. Your turrets are unnecessarily huge, your not about to fight anything going at 100k, and with that fire control, you won't hit it anyways.

Taking out your turret, and investing the freed up space in an extra engine, might actually give you a reasonable speed to match your fire control base speed.
And yes, you really need more spares.
Also, unless your moving in swarms, your jumpdrive could save some space by not supporting 6 ships.
 

Offline Brian Neumann

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Re: Active Sensors and Fire Controls
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2010, 06:17:18 AM »
A couple of modifications on what has been explained previously here. 

1.)  The ecm modifier is a flat -10% per level.  If you have a modified chance to hit of 30% before the ecm modifier, then the actual chance to hit will be 20%.  This is important because if your chance to hit is lower than the ecm modifier then you can not hit the target at all.

2.)  With tracking speed there are two different things to take into account.  One is the speed of the ship/base fire control tracking speed or if a turret the turret tracking speed.  Whichever one of the three is the best is used in comparision to the next part which is the actual fire control tracking speed of the installed fire control.  There the limit is the worse of the two.  For turrets this means that if the turret tracking speed is higher than the fire control speed, you do not get the full benifit of the turret.

3.)  The tracking speed of your ciws system is actually usefull, but my guess is that you have a very large ciws system because of this high tracking speed.

4.)  Each ECCM must be linked with a specific fire control for it to have any effect.  If you have 3 eccm's and 5 fire controls on your ship then 2 of the fire controls will not get the benifit of your eccm.  It is one reason that I tend to use the compact eccm on all of my ships, and have 1 regular eccm for shooting at a primary target.

Brian
 

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Active Sensors and Fire Controls
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2010, 09:38:53 AM »
I have put a post into the FAQ section re. firecontrols. Please check if I made any glaring obvious error :)
Ralph Hoenig, Germany
 

Offline Vanigo

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Re: Active Sensors and Fire Controls
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2010, 09:47:16 AM »
My best guess as to the problem is that you're trying to fire at max range. Problem is, at your fire control's maximum range, your chance to hit will be, like 1%, tops. At half max range, you'll have a base accuracy of 50%, and at point blank range, close to 100%. This base accuracy is then modified downward by ECM and target speed, unless your ECCM and tracking speed are higher, but no matter how good they are, beams are worthless unless you're at least a little bit closer than the stated maximum.

Oh, and turret speed should not correspond with ship speed. What he was trying to say is that, with no turret, weapon tracking speed is equal to the speed of the ship it's mounted on (or your fire control tracking speed technology, whichever is higher). The turrets you've got on those lasers aren't much faster than the ship itself, so they do you very little good. You could save space by using unturreted beams.

Edit: Oh, and by the way, why did you even design such a big reactor? The way I see it, several little ones do just as well, and that way you can use the same design for something like this. You do save space on internal armor on big ones, IIRC, but a bunch of size 1 reactors have way more total hits to kill, so you don't need the armor as much.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 10:24:45 AM by Vanigo »
 

Offline bulletstop

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Re: Active Sensors and Fire Controls
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2010, 11:08:39 AM »
heh, because I was a noob and did not understand everything , :P. I know now by reading, I do get it. OK so here is the deal, I encounter the ship and have a lock solution at 48k. I engage with beam weapons and it says it has zero base chance and shows the modifier for ew as 0% and does not fire. I have gotten as close to 38 k with same results, well my PD failed to get all the missiles and my ship went and blew up ;D.
 My beam rating for the fire control is 68K  and I have eccm 5 linked to my fire control, so if I understand this, it has for a ship of 14500 tons I should have at 48k just under 50%, right? I know have researched eccm 5 so I should be on par with their ecm. now my missiles has no issues nailing them, when I take in a Missile armed ship, they go boom, but beam mounted no way..
 OK so do not use turrets, will do. I may just use missiles as they seem to work ok until I can grasp the beam fire control, and folks I know I am missing something easy, I just can not figure out what.
 I will take a screen of what it says and show you all. Again thanks for looking at this and it most likely is something I missed in the forums.
@ Brain, yea my ciws is hugh, but it is effective, when I go in with 3+ JD missile armed I nailed 6 of them and a few hits on me, ciws worked well. I only have one eccm and it is linked to my primary fire control, the second is back up only. I read that the ciws is a self contained unit with its own fire control so I do not link it with the primary, only the secondary fire control. This game is in depth, why I like it, But I still am a novice and I still have lots of things to learn. Thanks for all your help folks.


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« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 11:19:49 AM by bulletstop »
 

Offline bulletstop

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Re: Active Sensors and Fire Controls
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2010, 12:48:24 PM »
OK, here is what the log says when I had another encounter.http://s949.photobucket.com/albums/ad339/bhockstad/ I hope this is legible
« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 12:56:53 PM by bulletstop »
 

Offline Vanigo

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Re: Active Sensors and Fire Controls
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2010, 01:30:31 PM »
Uh, are you sure you're at 38,000 km? That looks more like 3,800,000 kilometers to me, which is way out of range.
 

Offline mavikfelna

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Re: Active Sensors and Fire Controls
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2010, 01:30:53 PM »
you don't actually have your ECCM assigned to the fire control.

You have to set it up on the individual ships, I think. You can find the ECCM assignment on the Combat Settings tab on the Individual Unit Details window. Choose your ECCM from the drop down, select the fire control you want to attach it too and then hit assign.

--Mav