Author Topic: Joining the big leagues  (Read 13922 times)

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Offline AL (OP)

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Re: Joining the big leagues
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2015, 08:02:23 AM »
I guess this is going a bit off-topic, but how do you arrange for your civvies to meet their untimely demise? Add in another player race and SM in a couple "pirates"? I think it would probably be a good idea for my game, there must be hundreds of civilian ships floating around by now...
 

Offline Vandermeer

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Re: Joining the big leagues
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2015, 01:40:12 PM »
The way to do it is to acquire the designer mode password, which allows you to see and delete civil ships in the ships window. You then also have to delete the corresponding task group to avoid clutter, and when everything is done, also the design entry. (if you feel like overkill, you can finally even delete the engine they created, but they will come up with a new one on every spawn...)
Culling the first one or two ships that a new shipping line forms will leave them drained of funds and with no means to make a profit, you have successfully dried out that cancerous spreading slowdown cell. Weirdly every game seems to react differently to that for some reason. In 6.3 I had a game where all I had to do was dry the first line, and then I would never hear from the civil sector again (unless I would subsidize it). Then one game later also in 6.3, new shipping lines just kept forming, and I had to weed out ships and designs every couple years. ..That also happened in 6.4, but in the Astral game weirdly I have again seen near to no civils. I think I am up to 4 or 5 companies by year 250 or so, which is of course nothing.


The thing with this trick is though, that you have to start this as early as they start building (pluck the roots, salt the ground), since it can easily become an unmanageable clicking marathon if you have to delete 300 ships+ and task groups manually. That makes it pretty much all civils or no civils. (but 6.5 promises much improvement on that, so I personally will definitely test them for a possible comeback)
Of course you could use this famous pirate tactic that you mentioned to thin out most of them in advance, but I bet it will still be much. I had someone message me before who tried and then still decided he would go and rather start a new game.

If you are interested in a relatively conclusive guide on how to hold your Aurora game intervals + the menu loadups fast, here is a link where this was discussed: http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=7477.msg77459#msg77459
There is also a TLDR sum-up version two post below.
playing Aurora as swarm fleet: Zen Nomadic Hive Fantasy
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Joining the big leagues
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2015, 02:24:19 PM »
The tractor beam trick might still work. I haven't tried it, but tractoring civvies supposedly brainwashes them.
 

Offline Bryan Swartz

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Re: Joining the big leagues
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2015, 02:37:28 PM »
Interesting discussion.  This approach isn't for everyone(or perhaps even for anyone sane), but ...

I like the civilian operations in Aurora in basic concept, but not how they operate in practice.  Since I need more control over them for what I want to do(limiting populations on colonies, etc.) I am currently planning to operate two additional factions.  One will be a pirate faction which will simply be SM'd a small number of ships to hunt down civilians immediate after they are built -- to Vandermeer's point, this should keep it from becoming too much of a hassle.  The other faction will represent the corporate sector, with a relatively small population but higher income than the main faction.  They will essentially 'buy' minerals from the government to use for building my 'civilian' ships, and that way I should be able to control the growth of that sector. 
 

Offline AL (OP)

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Re: Joining the big leagues
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2015, 02:20:15 AM »
Just tried out the thing with the tractor beam, and I can confirm that it does indeed still work. I'm not crazy enough to do this for all the civvie ships tho, so I think some pirates would be the best bet at this stage... or I can just let the infestation continue on its course and abandon the game when the new patch comes around.
 

Offline AL (OP)

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Re: Joining the big leagues
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2015, 09:26:52 PM »
Getting back on topic, I finally got around to designing that 200kt ship I mentioned earlier.
Code: [Select]
Acclamator class Cruiser    200 000 tons     3869 Crew     50038.8 BP      TCS 4000  TH 3600  EM 30000
3750 km/s    JR 3-50     Armour 10-304     Shields 1000-300     Sensors 180/320/0/0     Damage Control Rating 250     PPV 310
Maint Life 0.14 Years     MSP 12819    AFR 6400%    IFR 88.9%    1YR 94517    5YR 1417759    Max Repair 12068 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months    Flight Crew Berths 284   
Flag Bridge    Hangar Deck Capacity 10000 tons     Troop Capacity: 1 Battalion    Magazine 10300   

Hyperspace Core M-200k     Max Ship Size 200000 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 3
Hydrani P-Fusion Cruiser Drive (20)    Power 750    Fuel Use 7.31%    Signature 180    Exp 7%
Fuel Capacity 17 500 000 Litres    Range 215.5 billion km   (664 days at full power)
Xantheon Reactive Armour (200)   Total Fuel Cost  3 000 Litres per hour  (72 000 per day)

Hydrani-Pattern Shield System (20x10)    Range 1000 km     TS: 32000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit
200mm Flechette Cannon (10x4)    Range 320 000km     TS: 8000 km/s     Power 36-6     RM 6    ROF 30        12 12 12 12 12 12 10 9 8 7
Clayton Long-Range Fire Control (2)    Max Range: 320 000 km   TS: 5000 km/s     97 94 91 88 84 81 78 75 72 69
Tokamak Fusion Core (1)     Total Power Output 64    Armour 0    Exp 5%

150mm Auto-Cannon Mk.II (100)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 5
Standard Torpedo Bay (20)    Missile Size 10    Rate of Fire 250
Cannon Control Centre Mk.III (5)     Range 17.8m km    Resolution 15
King-Lowe Torpedo Guidance Centre (2)     Range 756.0m km    Resolution 100
150mm "Striker" Shell (800)  Speed: 28 800 km/s   End: 4.8m    Range: 8.2m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 297/178/89
150mm "Cleanser" Shell (500)  Speed: 24 000 km/s   End: 13.3m    Range: 19.1m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 80/48/24
"Perdiot" Torpedo (200)  Speed: 9 600 km/s   End: 1315.5m    Range: 762.7m km   WH: 4    Size: 10    TH: 32/19/9
"Stalker" Torpedo (200)  Speed: 12 800 km/s   End: 1007.2m    Range: 781.1m km   WH: 1    Size: 10    TH: 42/25/12
150mm "Eraser" Shell (5000)  Speed: 48 000 km/s   End: 5.7m    Range: 16.5m km   WH: 4    Size: 1    TH: 288/172/86

Savant Inc Missile Detection Net (1)     GPS 480     Range 153.6m km    MCR 16.7m km    Resolution 1
Savant Inc Ship Detection Net (1)     GPS 48000     Range 1 536.0m km    Resolution 100
Thermal Sensor TH10-180 (1)     Sensitivity 180     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  180m km
EM Detection Sensor EM10-320 (1)     Sensitivity 320     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  320m km

ECCM-4 (2)         ECM 40

Those older generation missiles are thrown in just so I can get rid of my stockpiles on Earth.
Taking on some advice from the previous round and the recent battle, I redistributed some of the weight dedicated to passive defenses to other areas and upped the range to 200bkm, which I am much happier with. Even with the next engine tech, the ship speed is down to 3750km/s, but I think the tradeoff for range is acceptable. This should hopefully be a more "true" capital ship in the multi-purpose sense, especially with the flexibility of changing parasite loadouts to better fit whatever role is required.

I was thinking about implementing infinite deployment time in the next ship size up (400kt?). Since I've been hearing that the recreational modules are somewhat buggy, perhaps I can try adding cargo bays and cyro berths to give "shake n' bake" colony capability. This does rely on having at least partially habitable system bodies available however, so I'm wondering whether this method will be reliable enough. Thoughts?
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Joining the big leagues
« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2015, 10:47:50 AM »
well, since you have maintenance failures off, you could try adding a orbital habitat and just making them ship ridiculously insanehuge with 60% of its volume cheapass commercial engines ;)

ship looks fine except the single reactor core being vulnerable to damage.

 

Offline AL (OP)

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Re: Joining the big leagues
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2015, 03:57:48 AM »
I think the main problem with that idea would be the insane-huge (military) shipyard that I would need to have in order  to build it...
Anyway, I recall reading somewhere that having a single large reactor is better than multiple. Is that not the case? What is the optimum number of reactors to split energy generation between then?
 

Offline Bryan Swartz

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Re: Joining the big leagues
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2015, 05:49:02 AM »
I think he was referring to the issue of shock damage, not optimal energy generation. 
 

Offline Ostia

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Re: Joining the big leagues
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2015, 06:26:11 AM »
Shock Damage is one thing, penetrating hits another. Once the reactor dies you have no power left in the thing. So no 200mm Flechette Cannons.

Taking the massive Shields on that ship into account these are mostly theoretical events, but still something to be considered.

Edit: I forgot Mesons. Those are going to wreck that reactor like no tomorrow. But then again, they wreck anything.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 06:27:49 AM by Ostia »
 

Offline Vandermeer

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Re: Joining the big leagues
« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2015, 03:44:08 PM »
I think he was referring to the issue of shock damage, not optimal energy generation.
Generators don't get any benefits from being bigger though, so there is no optimization for energy generation. A bigger reactor has more structural points, making it somewhat unlikely to be destroyed by Meson 1 damage attacks. When you have a lot of shields, the shock damage doesn't really matter as Ostia said, so these Mesons and in theory size 1 warheads are the only threat to components for nearly all the game.
However, in the statistics it still comes out the same I think. I can't check the data right now, but I think a double size reactor had exactly double the hull-points, so if you have one at 6 or two at 3 -- still just takes 6 statistical hits to be destroyed. The two reactor version would mathematically be less chaotic and more predictable in the amount of damage they receive (/turns they last on average), while a 6 hp reactor is somewhat more prone to extremely lucky streaks or misfortune.
Given that all components of your ship get hit at random when under fire, you might favor to go with one that resists that one lucky hit more sturdily, but it really doesn't make much difference under longer fire.
(--all this might be wrong if hull-points don't scale linearly like I thought...-- :P )

Anyway, I myself now have shifted to only research reactors that can by themself power a fast firing quad-turret. Usually power 24, and 40, 64 or even wasteful 96-100 on later game stages. (maybe that is why you AL created one at 64 too?) I don't care much about the little difference in research costs it makes, but I try to avoid the discomfort of having too big of a reactor ready, just in case I happen to design a smaller ship for once. (happened with one of those 20k destroyer aids, who needed an extra project for their first version)

I was thinking about implementing infinite deployment time in the next ship size up (400kt?). Since I've been hearing that the recreational modules are somewhat buggy, perhaps I can try adding cargo bays and cyro berths to give "shake n' bake" colony capability. This does rely on having at least partially habitable system bodies available however, so I'm wondering whether this method will be reliable enough. Thoughts?
400k is not enough for that. You have to remember that the recreational facilities are draining from the mission tonnage, so when minimum armor, crew, fuel, engines and engineering already take 50%-60%, you would spent half and up of your mission tonnage just for this infinite deployment thing. Though it would have more armor and hull resistance, such a 400kt ship would in essence turn out to be as strong as your current 200kt ones, which seems like a waste of resources.(not that that would really matter, but for the principle of being economic and design elegantly, it fails)
This is why I normally target the first recreation facility ship to be 1mt (military or not), where it only consumes around 20-25% of mission tonnage. I had a 700kt one in a former game too, but at that time I was still flying with only 25% engine designation on power-factor 1, which was a bad choice for what I wanted it to do.

I don't know what is up with those facilities though. On some ships they work, then on the next identical replica of the same ship they don't. It happens for military and civil ship types alike, so the module itself directly has some code problem. They work often enough to make it feasible, but it always sticks out as annoying when it fails, because you usually have to either rebuild or at least update the design of the failed ship slightly to get another roll.
If I ever figure out what the cause of this issue is, I will promptly make it known on the forum here.

The cruiser looks good now though. Be sure to report positives and negatives you find in operation, because I am curios how others deal with the big ship strategy.  :) Only potential issue I see is that your former bombers didn't seem to use the standard ship ammunition, so they won't have refills with what I see there? Or do they now use shells as well?
playing Aurora as swarm fleet: Zen Nomadic Hive Fantasy
 

Offline AL (OP)

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Re: Joining the big leagues
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2015, 03:01:17 AM »
There are two lines of arguments that I can think of regarding optimal reactor sizes:
1. many smaller reactors are better after you've taken some damage due to the greater "resolution" of power generation, ie you dont lose 50% of your power when a penetrating hit goes to a reactor if you use several/many ~6 point generators compared to 1 or 2 big ones.
2. Having a single large reactor is better in the event that it does get taken out since you have a 5% chance of explosion (assuming no reactor boosts) compared to n*5% chances of explosion for however many htk equivalent smaller reactors would have been destroyed instead of the single large one.

As for mesons, I think I did incorporate a sort of "gamey" counter in the form of a few hundred size-1, max htk magazines which should hopefully ensure I don't immediately lose all my vitals to meson-fire.

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The cruiser looks good now though. Be sure to report positives and negatives you find in operation, because I am curios how others deal with the big ship strategy.  :) Only potential issue I see is that your former bombers didn't seem to use the standard ship ammunition, so they won't have refills with what I see there? Or do they now use shells as well?
Will do, although it could be a while before it sees any action. I've been surveying a fair bit and still no sign of any NPR's to conquer...

The bombers have always used shells since they get the same MFC and launcher size as any other missile combatant (except torpedoes which is a different story). It may not have been obvious since I have a fair few ammunition types still floating around, but they really just use whatever the mothership is carrying. Most of these missiles are way obsolete but I just don't have the heart to scrap them...
 

Offline 83athom

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Re: Joining the big leagues
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2015, 08:20:33 PM »
I find the big ship strategy works for me. They generally are hard to kill because of its armor (if you have it), high amount of shield potential (my cruisers of around 100kt can take a lot of damage per 5 sec increment without the shields dropping 1 point of its total), multitude of backup systems (if you design like that), it can have a variety of offensive and defensive armaments, and generally have a high HTK from just the amount of systems. Another thing is that even when you try to specify a role for a ship, they can still be general purpose. Instead of the smaller ships mastery of a single role, the big ships can be a jack of all trades, and a master of one. And about getting the "insane-huge (military) shipyard", I find it really is not that much of a problem to get if you have the manpower, can micro the production, and get lucky with not having invasions after the fist couple of years.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 08:47:02 PM by 83athom »
Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 

Offline AL (OP)

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Re: Joining the big leagues
« Reply #43 on: August 27, 2015, 12:11:03 AM »
So I put my shipyard on auto-expand, intending to let it do its thing for a couple months to get up to 400kt capacity for my next design... and of course by the time I got around to advancing time a bit I had completely forgotten about that shipyard. About a game year later I remember about that shipyard and find it is now at ~1.3mt. I suppose you might be seeing some truely large designs coming soon then...

During this time I have been doing some aggressive surveying (at least relative to what I normally do). About a dozen new systems have been discovered and surveyed (including one with a col cost 0 planet!) and still no sign of any proper NPR's. I did however find a star swarm infested system, so there's that at least. I dispatched my 200kt cruiser to deal with it after my survey ship got exploded by meson fire. I remember back when I started playing Aurora I marvelled at the huge but slow bulk of the swarm motherships, but looking at it now it seems positively puny compared to the kind of ships I'm fielding.

Long-range torpedo strikes proved ineffective against their beam pd (the mirv torpedoes were not used), so I closed to beam range to determine whether my beam armnament was sufficient to break through their shields. I managed to close to around 70-80kkm before taking any return fire so I was able to sustain about 40*9 damage worth of shots every 30 seconds. Before long, some kind of internal explosion reduced the opposing ship to debris. Note that I restrained from using any of my size-1 launchers - this was purely from those railguns/flechette cannons

Some improvement ideas from the engagement:
Larger beam armnament - even with a theoretical 40*12 damage output per 30 seconds, it still feels a bit low. My energy weapon scientist has more or less finished training up so I might look into getting some large caliber lasers on the next ship.
More fire controls - especially against smaller ships, ie fighters/FAC, having 20 launchers per fire control results in some massive overkill. More beam FC's would be good too to help with mopping up the cripples.

I am rather liking the range of the new cruiser, but I'm thinking of aiming for even more with the next ship.
Since 1mt military jump engines are not possible with my current efficiency tech, I will either have to strap on a jump gate construction module or use a commercial jump drive and engines. Suggestions?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2015, 12:14:04 AM by AL »
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Joining the big leagues
« Reply #44 on: August 27, 2015, 12:35:27 AM »
The point with generators is just that single points of failure are always bad.  Even redundant systems can fail with a bit of bad luck, so generally I try to avoid that.  (On that note, one nice thing about carriers is that parasite sensors can compensate for active sensor failures.)

I wouldn't worry too much about your beam dps. Swarm carriers are heavily defended.   Note, it can be hard to tell from the outside, but it's likely the ship was mission-killed long before you actually killed it.

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Since 1mt military jump engines are not possible with my current efficiency tech, I will either have to strap on a jump gate construction module or use a commercial jump drive and engines. Suggestions?
Use a commercial drive.  If you really need to assault a jumpgate you can establish a specialized assault force.