Author Topic: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread  (Read 173267 times)

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Offline QuakeIV

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Re: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #465 on: September 02, 2016, 07:30:26 PM »
Depends on what percentage of them are made of TN materials.  Shipyards would be inclined to lag behind the earth as it orbited around the sun, but if they had enough run-of-the-mill material in them to overpower the drag from the TN materials then they would fall into the planet if they lost the power to maintain their altitude.  It wouldn't be feasible to keep them in a kinetic orbit because of all of the drag from the TN materials.

Personally I would prefer things work out in such a way that they fall into the planet because that is way cooler than just drifting off into space.

e: You could also argue that upon destruction they would break apart, and non TN chunks would fall into the planet while TN ones would pull away from the planet into space.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 07:33:24 PM by QuakeIV »
 

Offline serger

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Re: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #466 on: September 03, 2016, 04:30:10 PM »
I think it will be great, if construction and R&D output will count as some non-linear model. Linear output regularly provoke some strange effects, as nearly instantaneous construction and development cycles (new fire control or small engine model developed or constructed in 1 production cycle, that can be very short - I usually set it to 24 hours, for example, that is quite realistic and suitable on the other hand). I think it will be some "base time" for such processes, and pumping project with resources must change completion time in some negative power function, not a simple linear.
 

Offline bean

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Re: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #467 on: September 06, 2016, 09:54:40 AM »
The energy of an impact generally increases with the mass of the impactor times the impact velocity squared.
That would be the definition of kinetic energy, yes.

Quote
While large objects falling at orbital speeds (10-15 km/s) is certainly still problematic, the atmosphere will slow it down quite a bit.
As a rule of thumb, anything which has a lower sectional density than the atmosphere (10 tons/m2 for Earth) is going to reach the ground slowly.  Anything with a higher sectional density is going to reach the ground fast.

A 10 million ton shipyard coming down at orbital speed is'nt to be sneezed at however.
Why would it be coming down in one piece?  That's fantastically unlikely to occur as a result of getting shot at.  It's likely to remain in orbit initially, and come down in a rain of small pieces over a considerable period of time.

I think it will be great, if construction and R&D output will count as some non-linear model. Linear output regularly provoke some strange effects, as nearly instantaneous construction and development cycles (new fire control or small engine model developed or constructed in 1 production cycle, that can be very short - I usually set it to 24 hours, for example, that is quite realistic and suitable on the other hand). I think it will be some "base time" for such processes, and pumping project with resources must change completion time in some negative power function, not a simple linear.
I'm of two minds on this.  On one hand, what you say is true.  But it would be a tradeoff against micromanagement.  IRL, we'd have a lot more parallel projects running of different sizes.  Replicating this in Aurora would be annoying because you'd have to manage those projects.  I'd generally just headcanon it as 'this small FC was developed over the last few months in parallel with whatever the team was also working on'.  If necessary, wait a few months after you design it before you give it to the research team.
This is Excel-in-Space, not Wing Commander - Rastaman
 

Offline serger

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Re: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #468 on: September 07, 2016, 12:10:13 AM »
Well, honestly, I'm not suffering from micromanagement. As a rule, I enjoy it. :D

But speaking about less peculiar gamers, if our goal is to minimize micromanagement horror, than it will be great to have some joint progects interface. For example, you can create some new ship class R&D joint project, fill it with specific projects of FC, weapon, radar, etc., select or deselect some colonies, that must participate in this joint project, and then quite simple algorithm can allocate labs, so that all specific projects will end virtually synchronous.
 

Offline bean

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Re: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #469 on: September 07, 2016, 12:09:29 PM »
Well, honestly, I'm not suffering from micromanagement. As a rule, I enjoy it. :D

But speaking about less peculiar gamers, if our goal is to minimize micromanagement horror, than it will be great to have some joint progects interface. For example, you can create some new ship class R&D joint project, fill it with specific projects of FC, weapon, radar, etc., select or deselect some colonies, that must participate in this joint project, and then quite simple algorithm can allocate labs, so that all specific projects will end virtually synchronous.
My goal is not to minimize micromanagement.  If I wanted that, I'd play something else.  My goal (which, so far as I've seen, is also what Steve does) is to balance micromanagement against enjoyment, and I don't think that setting it up so that you gain a significant advantage if you spend more time on your research lab allocation is a good example of that.
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Offline Thundercraft

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Re: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #470 on: September 19, 2016, 12:34:03 AM »
...They [shipyards] also probably wont readily burn up, since duranium is able to handle nuclear weapons to some degree.  Since they don't leave wrecks behind, I tended to assume that when destroyed they fell into the planet rather than sticking around in space like ships do.

Good points.

...Personally I would prefer things work out in such a way that they fall into the planet because that is way cooler than just drifting off into space.

I also like the idea of them falling into the planet. Ships leave wrecks behind, which can be salvaged. I'd like to see destroyed shipyards deposit the TN elements used in construction (or at least a portion of them) onto the planet, where they can be mined.
"Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine." - Sir Arthur Stanley Eddington
 

Offline serger

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Re: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #471 on: September 20, 2016, 06:08:29 PM »
Some thoughts.

Now we have a situation, when:
1. There are so many different and effective types of battle ships, that any game AI would be miserable necessarily.
2. Missile Defence fire control is so smart, that Formation orders (one of the most beautiful game instruments!) are useless.
3. Jump points topology makes practically impossible for AI to operate on players communications.

Consequently, war in Aurora tends to become plain and one-dimensional (war-of-one-point-straightforward-task-force) at tactical level and boring at operational level.

So, some attempts to fix these problems and at the same time to make game more realistic and "intuitive measuring":

Ia. Strengthen main weapon (i.e. missile) damage effects and simplify their design. Missiles with such closing-in speed needs no warhead - they are their own WHs per se, and they must be crippling or killing for any ship, if they pass through active defence. This change will kill two birds. First, it will strengthen the role of active missile defence, making it mandatory for any main battle ship. Second, it will simplify missile design tasks for game AI, making it less miserable.

Ib. Strengthen fuel consumption of small and forced engines, and make engines forcing fully available at start to prevent miserable role of missile fuel tanks and, most importantly, to make light missiles suitable at close range only. It will prevent from not so effective, but very tiresome missile spam and, again, will make defence tasks more simple for AI.

Ic. No fire control must have 100% hit chance at once. It will approach to 100%, but never reach this point. And no fire control must have an ability to repeat fire only at intact targets at the same cycle of fire. The goal of this change is to make active defense to be disposed in depth mandatory. If our fire control at any reasonable conditions have a noticeable chance of miss, and, at the same time, any missile have a noticeable chance of oneshot kill, then you must have early warning and multilayer active defence. So, beautiful multilayer formations will live!

II. Strengthen stealth techs, but make it time-limited (fuel-burning, as shields, maybe, or simply limited with some tech-dependent timer). Maybe, in addition, make JP to have its own radius, to let these stealth ships to pass at nonzero distance at inbound (where it will be defence stations, ships or mines). It will make possible for well armed ships to pass through JP invisibly and to sneak at battle formations from any direction, attacking at close distance. No more absolutely safe and quiet rear star systems, defended with JP piquets-and-minefields. Less safe zone with one big radar. Again, war takes more tactical and operational depth with it. Even more need of deep formations, and most important - need for deep force deployment. Player must not only defend his main battle ships from sneak attacks, but also must defend his communications - must use patrols, convoys, trap ships.

Summary, these measures will force to use one or two main types of battle designs ("open" missile and stealth sneaking beam or kinetic), but gives no 100% warranty of success for each of them. Both these design types will be available for AI, and they don't need mandatory for any complicated timing of combined attacks, that will always be a weak point of AI - no, "sneak" groups can attack independently from "open" battle force and independently from each other too. So wining battles and campaigns against AI will be not a simple task and players will take their adrenaline systematically. At the same time, we will keep all splendid variety of Aurora weapon types, though their roles will be more specific.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 06:11:01 PM by serger »
 

Offline Thundercraft

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Re: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #472 on: September 20, 2016, 10:37:08 PM »
You do seem to bring up some good points, serger. Don't let me get in the way of arguing for making fleet combat more strategic and complex. However...

Ia. Strengthen main weapon (i.e. missile) damage effects and simplify their design. Missiles with such closing-in speed needs no warhead - they are their own WHs per se, and they must be crippling or killing for any ship, if they pass through active defence. This change will kill two birds. First, it will strengthen the role of active missile defence, making it mandatory for any main battle ship. Second, it will simplify missile design tasks for game AI, making it less miserable.

Sorry, but I'm afraid such a change would upset game balance. Already, missiles are so effective that (at high enough research) they largely leave other types of weapons behind. Aurora is already very missile-centric in comparison with other space 4x games. Do we really want to see even larger swarms of ASMs and AMMs, at the cost of making other weapons, like railguns and energy weapons, more obsolete?

If anything, I would suggest that missiles be nerfed slightly. (Or maybe give ships 1 point of damage absorption.)

This argument for missiles without a warhead has been suggested and hotly debated before, in other topics - in the AMM doesn't need warhead topic, for one.

It was pointed out how missiles travel so fast that AMMs don't really need a warhead. The kinetic energy alone should very easily destroy a missile.

But then it was counter-argued:

Trying to fix the balance this way would promote smaller and even higher amounts of AMMs.

I would prefer going the other way around and giving ships with thicker armor 1 point of damage absorption so that AMMs don't scratch them.

Aurora doesn't need even smaller and more missiles going around IMHO.

Another words, we don't need to make missiles cheaper or more effective than they already are. If anything, we need to make missiles more restrictive.

Someone else pointed out that missiles probably do not actually collide with each other and the AMM just gets "close enough for the warhead to go off." Also:
...Trying to intercept something going 20000km/s while being relatively tiny is going to be very hard...
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 10:39:52 PM by Thundercraft »
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Offline QuakeIV

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Re: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #473 on: September 20, 2016, 10:50:57 PM »
I'm not in total agreement regarding the stealth tech.  The ability to harry jump defenses is probably a good idea, to make it harder to make them a totally 100% impenetrable wall (per your 'nothing should be 100% certain' which I completely agree with), but letting stealth ships run blockades like that will just lead to dramatically increased micromanagement as you try to prevent stealth ships from sniping your assets deep within your empire.  Making players field that may formations seems like bad design to me.  Games would die from trying to keep everywhere properly defended, unless massively improved management tools came out with these changes.

Also, regarding high damage missiles, current missile gameplay would tend to lead to both combatants in any engagement getting reduced to debris as they launch sensor-equipped fire and forget missiles at each-other and then get ripped to shreds in a cloud of hundreds of nuclear detonations.  Shortening the engagement range per the increased fuel consumption wouldn't hugely effect this.

fake-edit: To help counteract the overpowered missles in comparison to other weapons, we could also beef up the other weapons.  I mean, sensors work at faster than light.  So do the aptly named FTL drives.  You could imagine some TN-beam that shoots faster than the speed of light and therefore can fire effectively over a much greater distance.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 10:53:03 PM by QuakeIV »
 

Offline serger

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Re: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #474 on: September 21, 2016, 12:53:21 AM »
I agree with both defined dangers, but I think there are some simple ways to neutralize these undesirable effects, and some of these ways are the same that I proposed already.

First, I have to notice, that my points I and II are in some way opposed already. First point is strengthening missiles, but second point is strengthening beam and kinetic weapons. You don't want to get your great missile ships to be butchered by some stealth sharks with big rude railguns! Missiles demand more time to get their targets even at point blank range, so, if you want to protect missile battle ships from sneak attacks, then you must equip them with defensive beam or kinetic weapon strong enough to kill or disable those sharks with one salvo. So, our main battle ships will be equipped with various weapon, and no weapon type will be obsolete.
As for balancing, relating to tech advance - it is a matter of tech advance only. Steve can fix it, regulating formulas of missile tech impact. My proposition only makes it more simple, because there would be fewer missile techs (I proposed to delete WH and Engine forcing techs), and so - balance with late game techs can become better even without such formula regulating. My thought is not to make missiles the only main weapon - it is to make all types of weapon to be mandatory, and in the same time - to make our beautiful battle formations alive.

As for micromanagement nightmare with deep operations - I agree with this objection more strongly. Maybe it will be too big problem. I need to try. Maybe it will be worth to add it as an option for the most micromanagement maniacal players, but I strongly want to try it.

And I have some more thoughts about ways of scaling down micromanagement workload, but these thoughts are rather unripe for now (in addition to a point, that it's hard to me to formulate my thoughts in English - I don't know even if all my ungrammatical statements are understandable at all; sorry for this disorder).
 

Offline QuakeIV

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Re: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #475 on: September 21, 2016, 02:47:54 AM »
I can more or less make sense of what you are saying without issue.

I will probably post something later, I need to go to bed.
 

Offline TMaekler

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Re: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #476 on: September 23, 2016, 07:31:11 AM »
In "Fast OB Creation" adding an option to "Use Resources with OB Construction". It is fine that OB Creation does not use Resources while setting up a game; but at some point in the game it might be interesting to Add something afterwards which simply got forgotten during the setup. Having the option that this "Afterbuild" uses the actual resources (Minerals and Wealth) would be handy... .
 

Offline serger

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Re: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #477 on: September 24, 2016, 09:31:33 AM »
Proceeding with a question of war at communications and following micromanagement nightmare - rose up to big and disputable separate post:
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=9074.0
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 11:21:13 AM by serger »
 

Offline serger

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Re: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #478 on: September 24, 2016, 10:33:20 AM »
Use more random numbers of comets.
Add a check-box "Comets" in Display setup page (i.e. option to hide comets itself, not only comet paths).
 
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Offline serger

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Re: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #479 on: September 24, 2016, 11:15:39 AM »
Some simple naming suggestions, partly touched in my big post, but partly different at all, and so - can be considered separately.
(RP-motivated only.)

Fighters (as type of hull design) - rename to small crafts (small-sized crafts?) or simply crafts.
Because there are not only fighters in this mass range. Fighters Factory - correspondingly.

Thermal Sensors - rename to TN-noise Sensors (Noise Signature correspondingly).
EM Sensors - rename to TN-pulse Sensors (Pulse Signature correspondingly).
Because there are not thermal and not EM (electromagnetic) - there are both FTL waves (while thermal and all EM emissions are light-speed emissions, and therefore cannot be seen by 5-sec pulse at more distance, than 5 light seconds = 1.5 mkm).

Geology - rename to Planetology (GEV to PSV).
2 reasons: 1st - "Geo-" is "Earth-" in latin, but our Geology vessels and teams must survey another planets; 2nd - Geology and Gravitational (GSV and GEV) are quite alike by cursory glance and it is easy to mix up.

Commanders - rename to Staff or Leaders.
Because there are not only commanders even at Naval Officers Leader Type page, and there are administrators and R&D staff there.

Scientist andResearch - rename to R&D.
Because there are not only science research there - bigger part of it is an engineering (development, not research).

Errmm... I don't insist, but. Marine - is for wet fleet (from latin "mare" - sea, seaside). And space fleet infantry is a Space Infantry.  ::)

Hide "-A" suffix for body names of one-component star systems (a "Sol", not a "Sol-A", etc.)