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Offline Þórgrímr (OP)

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« on: October 12, 2007, 01:23:37 PM »
Eric wanted me to post this response of mine to Ian about hiding is space here on the Aurora forums, so here it is.  ;) Short of repealing the Second law of
Thermodynamics you can't hide your waste energy. Then again if you
broke the Second Law of Thermodynamics in order to obtain stealth in
space, a major unintended consequence is that you simultaneously have
allowed perpetual motion machines of the first kind, infinite free
energy from nowhere, and all the secondary unintended ripple effects.

In essence, if you intend to respect the Laws of Thermodynamics there
can be no stealth in space.

> I think the old Traveller 2300 had a good extrapolation of what
future
> tech space combat would be like - more like modern submarine
warfare,
> with lots of remote operations platforms.

GDW's STAR CRUISER describes interplanetary combat as being like hide
and go seek with bazookas. Stealthy ships are tiny needles hidden in
the huge haystack of deep space. The first ship that detects its
opponent wins by vaporizing said opponent with a nuclear warhead.
Turning on active sensors is tantamount to suicide. It is like one of
the bazooka-packing seekers clicking on a flashlight: all your
enemies instantly see and shoot you before you get a good look. You'd
best have all your sensors and weapons far from your ship on
expendable remote drones.

Well, that turns out not to be the case.

The "bazooka" part is accurate, but not the 'hiding' part. the
starship's thrust power was several terawatts. This means the exhaust
is so intense that it could be detected from Alpha Centauri. By a
passive sensor.

I realise to make things work, we will have to bend, and perhaps even
break some of the theories of physics. But you have to do it
responsibly, remaining true to the spirit if not the letter of the
laws of science. Otherwise this SF setting of Astral Empires will
degenerate into a self-contradictory mass of putrid fantasy
pathetically trying to cover up with scraps of ridiculous
technobabble.

In some cases I know we will have no choice but to violate a theory
of physics. For instance, since we are going to have FTL travel, we
are going to have to violate either relativity or causality; one of
them has got to go.

The important point I am trying to make is to keep the fracture under
control. Sloppy game designers will assume that 'if we have to break
a few theories of physics for FTL, why not just throw all the
theories out the window?' Please don't give in to the temptation.
Omitting physics will degrade the system to a pathetic lack of
accuracy worse than an average Star Wars movie.

And lets try to just to break one theory, not two or three. :)



Cheers, Thorgrimm
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Þórgrímr »
Sic vis pacem, para bellum
If you want peace, prepare for war
 

Offline Randy

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« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2007, 03:30:56 PM »
I'm not entirely sure I agree with all of that.

  If it were really true, then using those kinds of numbers, we should be able to find planets orbiting other stars _directly_ rather than by observing their effect on the star, etc...

  The amount of radient heat off a planet has got to be many orders of amgnitude greater than the thrust of an egine. Heck, even a volcanoe must be more intense.

  Why is it that, with today's tech, we can't see these things from so far away?
 
  I think there is some serious exageration - or some fairly restrictive assumptions being made...

What is the burn duration of a manuevering thruster? I suspect that in theory, if you knew where and when to look, that the thruster was on your side of the ship, and that it was in deep space (rather than simply orbiting a planet) you might be able to find it.

  But so many things could happen to obscure the heat source, not the least of which is that you turn it off, and that there are so many natural background sources that the detectability wihin a solar system doesn't  act as described.

  Then again, I'm not a physics major - and this stuff isn't even close to genetics... :-)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Randy »
 

Offline Þórgrímr (OP)

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« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2007, 04:52:25 PM »
Quote from: "Randy"
I'm not entirely sure I agree with all of that.

  If it were really true, then using those kinds of numbers, we should be able to find planets orbiting other stars _directly_ rather than by observing their effect on the star, etc...

  The amount of radient heat off a planet has got to be many orders of amgnitude greater than the thrust of an egine. Heck, even a volcanoe must be more intense.

  Why is it that, with today's tech, we can't see these things from so far away?
 
  I think there is some serious exageration - or some fairly restrictive assumptions being made...

What is the burn duration of a manuevering thruster? I suspect that in theory, if you knew where and when to look, that the thruster was on your side of the ship, and that it was in deep space (rather than simply orbiting a planet) you might be able to find it.

  But so many things could happen to obscure the heat source, not the least of which is that you turn it off, and that there are so many natural background sources that the detectability wihin a solar system doesn't  act as described.

  Then again, I'm not a physics major - and this stuff isn't even close to genetics... :-)




Randy here is a wee bit more from Dr Schilling:

The maximum range a ship running silent with engines shut down can be detected with current technology is:

Rd = 13.4 * sqrt(A) * T2

where:
Rd = detection range (km)
A = spacecraft projected area (m2 )
T = surface temperature (Kelvin, room temperature is about 285-290 K)
If the ship is a convex shape, its projected area will be roughly one quarter of its surface area.

Example: A Russian Oscar submarine is a cylinder 154 meters long and has a beam of 18 meters, which would be a good ballpark estimate of the size of a small interplanetary warship. If it was nose on to you the surface area would be 250 square meters. If it was broadside the surface area would be approximately 2770. So on average the projected area would be 1510 square meters ([250 + 2770] / 2).

If the Oscar's crew was shivering at the freezing point, the maximum detection range of the frigid submarine would be 13.4 * sqrt(1510) * 2732 = 38,800,000 kilometers, about one hundred times the distance between the Earth and the Moon, or about 129 light-seconds. If the crew had a more comfortable room temperature, the Oscar could be seen from even farther away.

To keep the lifesystem in the spacecraft at levels where the crew can live, you probably want it above 273 K (where water freezes), and preferably at 285-290 K (room temperature). Glancing at the above equation it is evident that the lower the spacecraft's temperature, the harder it is to detect. "Aha!" you say, "why not refrigerate the ship and radiate the heat from the side facing away from the enemy?"

To actively refrigerate, you need power. So you have to fire up the nuclear reactor. Suddenly you have a hot spot on your ship that is about 800 K, minimum, so you now have even more waste heat to dump.

This means a larger radiator surface to dump all the heat, which means more mass. Much more mass. It will be either a whopping two to three times the mass of your reactor or it will be so flimsy it will snap the moment you engage the thrusters. It is a bigger target, and now you have to start worrying about a hostile ship noticing that you occluded a star.

Space travel requires, well, astronomical energies, and it is remarkably difficult to hide astronomical energy releases against effectively zero background.  One can handwave about hyperefficient drives or clever directional radiators or whatnot, but even a tiny fraction of a percent of the energy leaking out as isotropic radiation will kill you.  Until someone repeals the second law of thermodynamics, I am quite skeptical about proposals to do *anything* with an efficiency that requires more nines to express than I can count on one hand, which is pretty much what practical stealth in space would require.

Dr Schilling on other objects and spotting:

It would seem that the obvious way to distinguish stars, inert lumps, and working spacecraft is to measure their brightness (CCD cameras will do this) at several different wavelengths in the IR and visible. This will allow you to work out roughly at what wavelength the maximum of power is, and that will let you sort them into temperature categories.  Then given the sensory return from an object and a catalog of all known objects with their positions, is capable of determining whether the sensory return is of a known or unknown object, and giving ideas as to such characteristics as its location, velocity, and temperature.



Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Þórgrímr »
Sic vis pacem, para bellum
If you want peace, prepare for war
 

Offline Randy

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« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2007, 07:09:01 PM »
So part of the solution is some sort of "heat sink".

I kinda assumed that this was a standard component of these ships. Part of the base hull...

Otherwise weapons fire itself is too dangerous to attempt (never mind being shot at...).

Cataloging all objects could be a real challenge :-)

 A question - just how visible would the "oscar" be at the hypothetical observation limit? (the 39 million km)?

Another idea to help rectify the situation (somewhat) - onsider that the observing unit itself is putting out energy. The signal would need to be brighter than this "noise" to be spotted - so how would this afect the detection limit? maybe 10% reduction? more or less??  (just thinking as I go...)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Randy »
 

Offline Pete_Keller

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« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2007, 12:34:00 AM »
Quote from: "Randy"
So part of the solution is some sort of "heat sink".

I kinda assumed that this was a standard component of these ships. Part of the base hull...

Otherwise weapons fire itself is too dangerous to attempt (never mind being shot at...).



All of you interested in this need to look at a game called "Attack Vector Tactical" by AdAstra games.

The designs there have heat sinks and radiators.  And there is some serious Physics discussions on how visible spaceships would be.

Pete
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Pete_Keller »