Ruin Exploitation

[Paul M (OP)]

This is more based on reading the fiction so it may be silly.

To me recovering working alien technology seems a bit absurd, and more to the point I can't see it would do you much good in the long run since maintaining an alien system would be the closest thing to impossible there is.  So rather than that why not have them give research points to the next level of the appropriate technology.  So recovery of ancient construction devices adds to your next level of construction rate technology, an alien research station adds to your next level of research rate, alien infrastructure to the cost of new colonies and so on.

So ruins would yield minerals, direct technology, and points towards racial technology and say from weapons and such points towards specific weapon technologies.

Just my feeling on the matter anyway.

[SteveAlt]

This is more based on reading the fiction so it may be silly.

To me recovering working alien technology seems a bit absurd, and more to the point I can't see it would do you much good in the long run since maintaining an alien system would be the closest thing to impossible there is.  So rather than that why not have them give research points to the next level of the appropriate technology.  So recovery of ancient construction devices adds to your next level of construction rate technology, an alien research station adds to your next level of research rate, alien infrastructure to the cost of new colonies and so on.

So ruins would yield minerals, direct technology, and points towards racial technology and say from weapons and such points towards specific weapon technologies.

Just my feeling on the matter anyway.

I agree that in reality recovering abandoned factories that we could operate is pretty unlikely . Infrastructure is probably more realistic as we could probably adapt alien structures to house humans. You can already get minerals and technology from ruins. The ruins are really more about fun and gameplay than reality though. Its fun to see what you turn up. The whole Trans-Newtonian concept that makes the game playable in the first place is just as contrived. That said, I am happy to change the general direction of ruins if there is a general consensus.

Steve

[Father Tim]

I vote for (appropriate) tech points rather than intact facilities - especially Shipbuilding/Shipyard Mod tech rather than intact shipyards.


P.S.: Hey Paul, welcome to the forum.  You can come hang out with me over here in the 'shipyards are largely ground-based facilities and only final assembly takes place in orbit' section, where towing shipyards around is impossible.

[schroeam]

What if another facility is designed to be built on a planet that a shipyard is towed to, but is automatically build if a new shipyard is constructed.  Some sort of Shipyard support facilities that would be about the same size as a CF.  You could ship them from the originating planet, or build them new, but having more of them than shipyards has zero effect on the performance of the yards.  Having it as a separate facility that is constructed at the same time as the shipyard only becomes a problem if a shipyard is moved to another planet.  Really it is just an anchor for the shipyard.  Maybe?  Just a thought.

Adam.

[Erik L]

This is more based on reading the fiction so it may be silly.

To me recovering working alien technology seems a bit absurd, and more to the point I can't see it would do you much good in the long run since maintaining an alien system would be the closest thing to impossible there is.  So rather than that why not have them give research points to the next level of the appropriate technology.  So recovery of ancient construction devices adds to your next level of construction rate technology, an alien research station adds to your next level of research rate, alien infrastructure to the cost of new colonies and so on.

So ruins would yield minerals, direct technology, and points towards racial technology and say from weapons and such points towards specific weapon technologies.

Just my feeling on the matter anyway.

I agree that in reality recovering abandoned factories that we could operate is pretty unlikely . Infrastructure is probably more realistic as we could probably adapt alien structures to house humans. You can already get minerals and technology from ruins. The ruins are really more about fun and gameplay than reality though. Its fun to see what you turn up. The whole Trans-Newtonian concept that makes the game playable in the first place is just as contrived. That said, I am happy to change the general direction of ruins if there is a general consensus.

Steve

How about this.

Ruins grant minerals, missiles and infrastructure as currently, but for all other results increase the RP of a random, non-known tech by a small amount (100-500 points). This would only be tech that is on the player's research list, i.e. no Advanced 15cm lasers (unless they've uncovered said tech).

[Cassaralla]

I thought ruins were the only way currently that you could discover the Advanced Lasers, rail guns etc?

[Father Tim]

I believe Erik was referring to the Research Queue, and not the complete list of tech.  That is, have Aurora pick a tech that the player has expressed interest in aquiring, not pik something completely at random.

Personally, I would prefer limiting it to 'racial ability' techs (construction rate, mining rate, research rate, fuel production, maint production, etc.)

[Erik L]

Actually, I meant the available tech. Available research projects. So if you got 15cm to research, it won't apply any to 20cm. This would be done by the Xeno teams. The Cyber teams would still be able to get the Advanced variants.

[Paul M (OP)]

Infrastructure: points towards colony colonization cost
Facilities: points towards the appropriate racial tech
alien weapon: points towards your current appropriate weapon tech(s)
advanced alien weapon: unlock tree
very small chance of getting a technological advance (or none at all since the combined effects of the above should negate the need for this).

My reason is purely from the point of view of multiplayer where I would rather not have ruins be so overwhelming.

[Andrew]

I like ruins the way they are now. They add interest to a campaign.
I find it quite credible that facilities of one race caould be converted for use of another so I have no problem with recovering ruined facilities. There are certainly things I think are more implausible in the game if you have problems beleiving in things , Constant velocity ships, Easy to settle alien worlds (no incompatible biochemistries), multiple races within a very short time span of each other technologically. etc all of which are necessary .
As multiplayer games are going to be very difficult to run anyway I don't worry about them at all and if you want to keep them balanced that is what an SM is for

[Kurt]

I like ruins the way they are now. They add interest to a campaign.
I find it quite credible that facilities of one race caould be converted for use of another so I have no problem with recovering ruined facilities. There are certainly things I think are more implausible in the game if you have problems beleiving in things , Constant velocity ships, Easy to settle alien worlds (no incompatible biochemistries), multiple races within a very short time span of each other technologically. etc all of which are necessary .
As multiplayer games are going to be very difficult to run anyway I don't worry about them at all and if you want to keep them balanced that is what an SM is for

I agree with your statement about the ruins.  Of the other things you said above, the one I've been pondering is the fact that currently Aurora completely ignores the planetary biosphere.  We can modify atmospheric content, and temperature is modeled as is gravity, but the presence or absence of a biosphere is completely ignored.  This has vaguely bothered me for a while, and I've been pondering a way to include it that would fit in with the current rules and format.  Does anyone have an idea?  Should biospheres be included and how?  

As far as I can see, they could be included just like H2O is currently included, present or not, and they could be required to count a planet as terraformed.  Perhaps if there is no biosphere the planet would be colony cost 2.0, just as if it had no oxygen.  Which reminds me, shouldn't a planet be colony cost 2.0 if it has no water?

An alternative would be to have different types of biospheres.  Class A, B, and C, and so on.  Earth might have a Class B biosphere, other planets might have different biospheres.  The farther the planet's biosphere is from your home planet's, the higher the colony cost.  

What does everyone think?  Unnecessary complication, or reasonable complication to remedy an oversight?

Kurt

[Cassaralla]

Actually, I meant the available tech. Available research projects. So if you got 15cm to research, it won't apply any to 20cm. This would be done by the Xeno teams. The Cyber teams would still be able to get the Advanced variants.

So how about the cyber teams opening up the 'Advanced' projects for research rather than granting them outright?

[sloanjh]

I like ruins the way they are now. They add interest to a campaign.
I find it quite credible that facilities of one race caould be converted for use of another so I have no problem with recovering ruined facilities. There are certainly things I think are more implausible in the game if you have problems beleiving in things , Constant velocity ships, Easy to settle alien worlds (no incompatible biochemistries), multiple races within a very short time span of each other technologically. etc all of which are necessary .
As multiplayer games are going to be very difficult to run anyway I don't worry about them at all and if you want to keep them balanced that is what an SM is for

I agree with your statement about the ruins.  Of the other things you said above, the one I've been pondering is the fact that currently Aurora completely ignores the planetary biosphere.  We can modify atmospheric content, and temperature is modeled as is gravity, but the presence or absence of a biosphere is completely ignored.  This has vaguely bothered me for a while, and I've been pondering a way to include it that would fit in with the current rules and format.  Does anyone have an idea?  Should biospheres be included and how?  

As far as I can see, they could be included just like H2O is currently included, present or not, and they could be required to count a planet as terraformed.  Perhaps if there is no biosphere the planet would be colony cost 2.0, just as if it had no oxygen.  Which reminds me, shouldn't a planet be colony cost 2.0 if it has no water?

An alternative would be to have different types of biospheres.  Class A, B, and C, and so on.  Earth might have a Class B biosphere, other planets might have different biospheres.  The farther the planet's biosphere is from your home planet's, the higher the colony cost.  

What does everyone think?  Unnecessary complication, or reasonable complication to remedy an oversight?

Kurt

I'm in the "ruins are ok as is" camp as well.

On the biosphere stuff, from a conceptual level I agree.  From a practical level:

1)  Habitable worlds are hard enough to find.  I'd hate to put in another constraint that knocks their likelihood down by another order of magnitude

2)  Trying to come up with an "invasive species" set of rules could easily become a nightmare.  To put it another way, what would a set of "bio-forming" rules look like?

3)  Any biosphere which exists could be assumed to be tuned to the planet's environmental parameters.  So how do you model what happens when the temperature drops 30 degrees and the O2 content of the atmosphere triples due to terraforming efforts.  And how do you model the environmentalists' screams of Gaiaicide?

So, reluctantly, I think I'm in the "too complex" camp on this one.

John

[Father Tim]

John's point 3 leads me to think of terraforming as including bioforming.  For that matter, including the creation of a hydrosphere if necessary, too.  Grab a pile of ice chunks from a handy planetary rigs, and crash them into your target planet to 'build' a hydrosphere.

Part of the process of getting runaway greenhouse gases under control and upping the oxygen content of your newly 22C world is seeding it with a few hundred million square kilometres of rainforest.

[Sotak246]

I too am in the ruins are ok as is camp.  Part of the enjoyment of the game is wondering what the teams will find.  I use the idea that the time it takes the team to "find" an installation is actually the time it took to change it over to player use.  That being said, if you do change it Erik's idea works the best for me.  

Ruins grant minerals, missiles and infrastructure as currently, but for all other results increase the RP of a random, non-known tech by a small amount (100-500 points). This would only be tech that is on the player's research list, i.e. no Advanced 15cm lasers (unless they've uncovered said tech).