No transponder deception?

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

I am thinking of changing transponders so they announce both the class and individual identity of the ship. This is mainly because I am making some changes to detection around the four different states (Hostile, neutral, friendly, allied) in v4.1 and transponder contacts will be as informative as active contacts in terms of determining the status of the contact. In other words, in v4.0, transponder contacts are treated as hostile but in v4.1, the transponder will be all you need to determine the status of a ship and whether you have seen that particular ship before.

As part of the detection changes I am trying to reduce compelxity where I can. The facility exists in v4.0 to provide false transponder signals but I have never used this and I suspect no one else has either so I am planning to remove it, especially as it would be for individual ships. I thought I would give an opportunity for any objections before I do so

If all these detection changes work out as planned and I get the new diplomacy working, there will be diplomacy with NPRs and you will be able to trade with them and ally with them. They will also not fire on you instantly during first contact unless you are unlucky but a war may start if negotiations don't go well, or if you upset them later. I'll go into more details when I eventually post the new diplomacy rules.

Steve

[sloanjh]

I am thinking of changing transponders so they announce both the class and individual identity of the ship. This is mainly because I am making some changes to detection around the four different states (Hostile, neutral, friendly, allied) in v4.1 and transponder contacts will be as informative as active contacts in terms of determining the status of the contact. In other words, in v4.0, transponder contacts are treated as hostile but in v4.1, the transponder will be all you need to determine the status of a ship and whether you have seen that particular ship before.

As part of the detection changes I am trying to reduce compelxity where I can. The facility exists in v4.0 to provide false transponder signals but I have never used this and I suspect no one else has either so I am planning to remove it, especially as it would be for individual ships. I thought I would give an opportunity for any objections before I do so :-)  I think they've got the lowest xenophobia in racial characteristics.

I don't think I've ever (now or in previous versions) had an NPR go to war with me while in diplomacy.  Is the logic doing war checks?

John

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

BTW, I've been using the diplomacy screen (even though it doesn't have any effect on NPR behavior).  Two observations:

The best diplomatic status I've got so far (Trade agreement) is with the Precursors . This has important implications for interrogating prisoners and for espionage.

The view of each Empire toward another is determined by the Political Modifier. This is a number which will change over time based on different events and situations. It will also affect the treaties that can be set up, either automatically by NPRs or manually by players. Empires will determine by themselves what treaties to grant to other Empires and each is handled on a unilateral basis. Thus Empire A can grant Trade Access (for example) to Empire B without that being reciprocated.

The Political Modifier is set initially for each side when first contact takes place. This is set to zero minus a random number between 1 and the Empire's Xenophobia (which is equal to the Xenophobia of the dominant species within that Empire plus any modifier for government type). So although the Political Modifier will start negative on both sides, it could be significantly different for each Empire. The Political Modifier you have for each alien Empire will change over time based on the following criteria (more will be added before release)

Positive Modifiers
The rating of a diplomatic team assigned to you by that Empire will be added over the course of one year. So if the team rating was 120 then the political modifier would increase by 120 every year with small increments being added during each 5-day increment. The team won't have to be an alien world - for simplicity they can be assigned from anywhere and it is assumed they handle the strategy for relations with that alien race.
Instant changes ranging from 1 to 10 for positive communication efforts
Instant 10 for establishing communications
100 per year if you have given them trade access
100 per year if you are providing geological data
100 per year if you are providing gravitational data
200 per year if you are providing research data
(I might change the above 3 modifiers to specific points for individual items of research or survey data)
100 per year if Military Status is Friendly
200 per year if Military Status is Allied

Negative Modifiers
The Xenophobia of your Empire will be deducted over the course of one year. So if the Xenophobia was 50 then the political modifier would decrease by 50 every year with small increments being deducted during each 5-day increment.
-100 over the course of each year if communication not established
Instant deductions equal to the any damage inflicted to ships or PDCs. This is doubled for any internal damage
Instant deductions equal to 200% of any planetary bombardment damage
During the 5-day increment, NPRs will deduct points for any alien ships they detect with active sensors in systems in which they have a population. The deduction is equal to 10% of contact size. So a 5000 ton ship (size 100) would cause a 10 point deduction. For the purposes of this rule, they will ignore freighters if a trade access is in effect and they will ignore ships from Empires they class as Friendly or Allied

The Political Modifier Level required for different treaties is as shown below. If you haven't achieved this level, you won't be able to grant those treaties.

Neutral Military Status: -100 (below -100 is hostile)
Friendly Military Status (Jump ships can escort the alien Empire's ships): 500
Allied Military Status: (Ships will defend the ally's ships against missile attack): 3000
Trade Access: 200
Geo Treaty: 600
Grav Treaty: 2000
Research Treaty: 5000

Certain incidents, such as attacking a ship of that race, will drop PM to a set level. Attacking a race will also affect relations with its allies. Also, there might be some decrease if the alien race gives you access to trade, survey data, etc and that is not reciprocated. NPRs will only attack races classed as hostile, although they will reduce the political modifier for neutral races who intrude into their territory, whch could result in changing the status to hostile. I may also add some random events that change diplomatic relations. NPRs will automatically grant and revoke treaties as the political modifer is increased or decreased. As I said, this is only half-finished but it should provide an idea of what I intend.

Steve

[sloanjh]

On the diplomacy stuff:

Cool!!! Sounds great!!!!

A few comments (I'm not looking for answers to the questions, more just giving suggestions as I think of them):

1)  I've picked up life pods from 4 ships now.  The log message says they've been interrogated, but I'm yet to get any info.  Am I doing something wrong, or is the chance of gleaning info just small?

2)  Really like the idea of the Xenophobia acting as a "current" that degrades relationships, and is offset by diplomacy.  Should there be an offset though (e.g. 20-Xenophobia instead of -Xenopobia), so that low Xenophobia races want to be friends with everyone?

3)  Do I have a way to modify my Empire's opinion of others, or can I be forced by the voters/subjects into an unwise war that I don't really want.

4)  Have you considered generalizing this to represent internal strife within an empire, either between races or even between "rim" and "core" worlds of the same race?  Political state could have an effect, and if relations get bad enough it could trigger a civil war.  A governor's diplomacy rating could make relations better.

5)  Have you thought about putting an offset into the Xenophobia that's specific for dealing with a particular race?  In other words, my base Xenophobia might be 57, but it might be modified by a +20 for Race A (because their slimy skin is just sooooooo icky) to 77 and by -68 for Race B (because they look just like fuzzy bunnies!!!) to -11, which moves things in the direction of friendship if left alone.  If this idea went in, then the offset idea in #2 probably wouldn't be needed.

6)  It occurs to me that there should be a way to indicate to another race (with whome you don't yet have communications) that a particular system is already claimed and they should go away.  Locking up with fire control seems to be a pretty pointed message.  Of course the other race might interpret this in several ways - this could be modeled by variable point penalties for this act.

John

[Hawkeye]

I got a Anti-Missile-Missile Design from interrogating precursor prisoners once (I belive after the 4th or 5th lifepod), so no, I don´t think you are doing anything wrong

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

I've picked up life pods from 4 ships now.  The log message says they've been interrogated, but I'm yet to get any info.  Am I doing something wrong, or is the chance of gleaning info just small?

Picking up life pods will add espionage points, just like from Espionage teams. When you have enough you will get some information, although it may not always be tech-related.

2)  Really like the idea of the Xenophobia acting as a "current" that degrades relationships, and is offset by diplomacy.  Should there be an offset though (e.g. 20-Xenophobia instead of -Xenopobia), so that low Xenophobia races want to be friends with everyone?

Interesting idea. if I did this though I would probably reduce the effect of diplomacy teams to avoid it being too easy to make friends, so it may be a case of swings and roundabouts.

3)  Do I have a way to modify my Empire's opinion of others, or can I be forced by the voters/subjects into an unwise war that I don't really want.

You can pick any treaty within the range supported by the political modifier. At the moment, you aren't forced to change the treaties if the modifier drops (although NPRs will change) but bear in mind all of the treaties you can grant (except probably trade) benefit the other race more than you. The main concern will be to avoid other Empires attacking because their opinion of you has dropped too low.

4)  Have you considered generalizing this to represent internal strife within an empire, either between races or even between "rim" and "core" worlds of the same race?  Political state could have an effect, and if relations get bad enough it could trigger a civil war.  A governor's diplomacy rating could make relations better.

A good idea, although it isn't something I will add to the next version as I want to make sure the whole concept works first

5)  Have you thought about putting an offset into the Xenophobia that's specific for dealing with a particular race?  In other words, my base Xenophobia might be 57, but it might be modified by a +20 for Race A (because their slimy skin is just sooooooo icky) to 77 and by -68 for Race B (because they look just like fuzzy bunnies!!!) to -11, which moves things in the direction of friendship if left alone.  If this idea went in, then the offset idea in #2 probably wouldn't be needed.

I amn considering a random element of some sort that could cause a shift in relations. This could be a fixed amount as you described which is set at first contact, or it could be a small random amount during each increment that would average over time but could produce short-term fluctuations.

6)  It occurs to me that there should be a way to indicate to another race (with whome you don't yet have communications) that a particular system is already claimed and they should go away.  Locking up with fire control seems to be a pretty pointed message.  Of course the other race might interpret this in several ways - this could be modeled by variable point penalties for this act.

Something else I have added to v4.1 is Strategic Intelligence. This is on the same window as diplomacy and tactical intelligence and it provides a list of systems for each alien race in which have detected ships/pop of that race and a list of technology you have learned that they possess (through various means). I could expand this a little to include claimed systems. Two races with full communications could then see which systems each other was claiming. This could be set manually by players and automatically generated for NPRs. Just an idea at the moment though - I would have to give some thought as to how to implement it.

Steve