ship design

[alexwildstar (OP)]

Thanks alot guys.   the tips you are giving me are getting me that much closer to be able to play the game.  

   one of the reason my ship goes that fast is because well when I auto generate ships that is the speed they are going.   So I assusmed if the auto generated ships are that fast nprs I run into could be that fast.   is that a good assumption.

[Charlie Beeler]

That is really dependent on the research point pool available when the NPR's are generated.  

Just how many RP's did you give your race?

[Steve Walmsley]

20cm - 30cm dual turrets are just bloody huge. Five of them is just... wow.

For missile sizes, I tend to go Size 1 for Anti-missle (AMM).
For ship-killers, Size 3-4 is a Light Missile, 5-7 is Medium, 8-12 is Heavy. Size 12+ are reserved for capital ships and/or PDCs.


I also tend to build specialized ships. Missile ships will have at most 1 5 sec recharge quad turret for PD. Beam ships will have no missiles at all.

The "Enterprise" method of shipbuilding does not lend itself well to Aurora. This method is each ship should be self-sufficient and shoot beam, missiles and PD with equal facility.

You can build multi-role ships but they would have to be significantly larger than 16,000 tons. The design below is from my current campaign and includes anti-ship missile and anti-missile missile launchers plus some short-range railguns for missile defence.

Code: [Select]

Athena class Battlestar    25000 tons     2105 Crew     3908.6 BP      TCS 500  TH 2400  EM 1920
4800 km/s     Armour 8-76     Shields 64-300     Sensors 24/24/0/0     Damage Control Rating 14     PPV 70
Annual Failure Rate: 357%    IFR: 5%    Maintenance Capacity 1362 MSP    Max Repair 126 MSP
Magazine 1852    

NPO Energomash Magneto-plasma Drive (30)    Power 80    Efficiency 0.60   Signature 80    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 600,000 Litres    Range 72.0 billion km   (173 days at full power)
Gamma R300/12 Shields (32)   Total Fuel Cost  384 Litres per day

10cm Advanced Rapid-Fire Railgun (6x5)    Range 30,000km    TS: 4800 km/s    Power 3-3    RM 3   ROF 5        
SGB-12 Railgun Tracking System (2)    Max Range: 48,000 km   TS: 6000 km/s     79 58 38 17 0
Stellarator Fusion Reactor (3)     Total Power Output 18    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Mk 3 Guided Missile Launch System (12)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Mk 1 Guided Missile Launch System (10)    Missile Size 4    Rate of Fire 60
SGM-4 Long Range Fire Control (2)     Range 100.8m km    Resolution 80
SGM-2 Point Defence Fire Control (2)     Range 1.3m km    Resolution 1
SS-N-4 Shadow (260)  Speed: 24,000 km/ Range: 97.5m km   WH: 6    Size: 4    TH: 80 / 48 / 24
SR-N-2 Raptor Recon Drone (8)  Speed: 3,000 km/s   Range: 226.5m km   WH: 0    Size: 4    TH: 10 / 6 / 3
SA-N-3 Gladius (780)  Speed: 35,500 km/s   Range: 1.5m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 260 / 156 / 78

SGS-1 Missile Detection Array (1)     GPS 126     Range 1.3m km    Resolution 1
SGS-3 Area Search Sensor  (1)     GPS 10080     Range 100.8m km    Resolution 80
STP-5 Thermal Sensor (1)     Sensitivity 24     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  24m km
SEP-6 EM Sensor (1)     Sensitivity 24     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  24m km

ECM 10Steve

[Steve Walmsley]

Also on my 16k ton ship i was having a tough time getting it annual break down below thirty percent   without just throwing on ton of enginering. this is my big boy atm    any major flaws

The chance of failure scales with size so a 10,000 ton ship is twice as likely to have an engineering failure than a 5000 ton ship. This is simply because there are twice as many systems to go wrong. Another way to look at it is that a 10,000 ton ship will have the same number of failures as two 5000 ton ships. The cost of any individual failure will be approximately the same so as long as the 10,000 ship is carrying twice as many maintenance supplies as the 5000 ton ship they will both have similar endurance in terms of coping with system failures. As ships get larger then failure rates well above 100% are reasonable. Just make sure you have enough maintenance supplies to cope with the number of expected failures. Also, remember that as long as a ship is in orbit of a planet with suitable maintenance facilities, it won't suffer any failures and its overhaul clock will not increase.

Steve

[Steve Walmsley]

A good idea for new players is to read the Trans-Newtonian campaign in the fiction section. It's written in a way that  serves as a tutorial in terms of the concepts you need to consider when designing ships or building an Empire.

Steve

[Beersatron]

20cm - 30cm dual turrets are just bloody huge. Five of them is just... wow.

For missile sizes, I tend to go Size 1 for Anti-missle (AMM).
For ship-killers, Size 3-4 is a Light Missile, 5-7 is Medium, 8-12 is Heavy. Size 12+ are reserved for capital ships and/or PDCs.


I also tend to build specialized ships. Missile ships will have at most 1 5 sec recharge quad turret for PD. Beam ships will have no missiles at all.

The "Enterprise" method of shipbuilding does not lend itself well to Aurora. This method is each ship should be self-sufficient and shoot beam, missiles and PD with equal facility.

You can build multi-role ships but they would have to be significantly larger than 16,000 tons. The design below is from my current campaign and includes anti-ship missile and anti-missile missile launchers plus some short-range railguns for missile defence.

Code: [Select]

Athena class Battlestar    25000 tons     2105 Crew     3908.6 BP      TCS 500  TH 2400  EM 1920
4800 km/s     Armour 8-76     Shields 64-300     Sensors 24/24/0/0     Damage Control Rating 14     PPV 70
Annual Failure Rate: 357%    IFR: 5%    Maintenance Capacity 1362 MSP    Max Repair 126 MSP
Magazine 1852    

NPO Energomash Magneto-plasma Drive (30)    Power 80    Efficiency 0.60   Signature 80    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 600,000 Litres    Range 72.0 billion km   (173 days at full power)
Gamma R300/12 Shields (32)   Total Fuel Cost  384 Litres per day

10cm Advanced Rapid-Fire Railgun (6x5)    Range 30,000km    TS: 4800 km/s    Power 3-3    RM 3   ROF 5        
SGB-12 Railgun Tracking System (2)    Max Range: 48,000 km   TS: 6000 km/s     79 58 38 17 0
Stellarator Fusion Reactor (3)     Total Power Output 18    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Mk 3 Guided Missile Launch System (12)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Mk 1 Guided Missile Launch System (10)    Missile Size 4    Rate of Fire 60
SGM-4 Long Range Fire Control (2)     Range 100.8m km    Resolution 80
SGM-2 Point Defence Fire Control (2)     Range 1.3m km    Resolution 1
SS-N-4 Shadow (260)  Speed: 24,000 km/ Range: 97.5m km   WH: 6    Size: 4    TH: 80 / 48 / 24
SR-N-2 Raptor Recon Drone (8)  Speed: 3,000 km/s   Range: 226.5m km   WH: 0    Size: 4    TH: 10 / 6 / 3
SA-N-3 Gladius (780)  Speed: 35,500 km/s   Range: 1.5m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 260 / 156 / 78

SGS-1 Missile Detection Array (1)     GPS 126     Range 1.3m km    Resolution 1
SGS-3 Area Search Sensor  (1)     GPS 10080     Range 100.8m km    Resolution 80
STP-5 Thermal Sensor (1)     Sensitivity 24     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  24m km
SEP-6 EM Sensor (1)     Sensitivity 24     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  24m km

ECM 10Steve

Steve,

Are the Railguns actually effective against missiles in a PD role since they only have a tracking speed of 4800km/s ? Your own slowest attach missile is 24000km/s!

Beam weapons have always confused me, I can create missile systems fine though!

[Steve Walmsley]

Are the Railguns actually effective against missiles in a PD role since they only have a tracking speed of 4800km/s ? Your own slowest attach missile is 24000km/s!

Beam weapons have always confused me, I can create missile systems fine though!

Railguns can't be mounted in turrets so their maximum tracking speed is limited by the speed of the ship. However they get four shots (five for advanced railguns) so their low tracking speed is compensated by weight of fire. In some situations that makes them the best short-range point defence weapon.

Steve

[Paul M]

Doesn't the 6000 km/s tracking speed of the control system itself get used.  So the tracking speed is the higher of the ships speed or the base tracking speed for hull mounting?  If it is limited to the ships speed that forks over bases and stations big time.

[Brian Neumann]

You are correct.  The actual formula for non turreted fire control is the speed of the ship or the base tracking speed of the fire control which ever is faster.  This is used as a limiter on the actual fire control tracking speed.  Here are some examples.

Ship speed 3000, base tracking speed 4000, fire control tracking speed 5000.  The Actual tracking speed is 4000.
Ship speed 6000, Base tracking speed 4000, fire control tracking speed 5000.  The actual tracking speed is 5000.
Ship speed 6000, base tracking speed 4000, fire control tracking speed 8000.  The actual tracking speed is 6000.

The first example the base tracking speed is higher than the ship speed.  This is then compared to the fire control tracking speed and the lower of the two is used.

Second example the ship speed is the higher of the two and this is then compared to the tracking speed.  As the fire control tracking speed is lower than the ship speed the the fire control speed is the limiter.

The Last example the ship speed is faster than the base tracking speed so that is one part.  The fire control speed is higher than this so the limiter is the ship speed.

In general railguns are more effective as point defense when the ship speed is greater than the base tracking speed and the fire control speed is matching or better.  They are generally equal to turreted weapons when the ship speed is equal to or lower than the base tracking speed.  This is because a railgun gets 4 shots per firing cycle and the base fire control speed is 1/4 the maximum tracking speed.  If you have the advanced railguns which get 5 shots then they are actually more effective in almost every circumstance.  The main drawback to using light railguns for point defense at mid to high tech levels is they are much shorter ranged than any other weapon except for the gauss cannon.  They are also significantly larger than the matching lasers or mesons except for the 10cm railgun which has the same size and power requirements as the 10cm laser/meson.  (The 10cm railgun has a base damage of 1, meson 1.5 and laser 3 this is then multiplied by the range modifier to get the actual range.  For the 12cm it is 2 for the railgun and meson and 4 for the laser.)   Railguns also have a lower maximum range multiplier of 9 vs the 12 for the lasers and mesons.

Hope this helps to clarify the situation some

Brian

[Beersatron]

Thanks for the explanation Brian, I will need to re-read it few times to get it to stick!  

[Brian Neumann]

Thanks for the explanation Brian, I will need to re-read it few times to get it to stick!  

I know that it is complicated.  I think the easiest way is to break it down into two seperate steps.  Step one uses the higher of ship speed or base fire control speed as the limiter.  Step two is to use that number compared to the actual fire control in use and use the LOWER of the two values.  The idea was to allow for slow moving ships and bases to still be able to use non turret mounted beam weapons.

As far as the railguns go, I usually use them for point defense early on, untill I can get a good rate of fire on the gauss weapons (5 or better)  At this point when they are mounted on turrets they are better than the 10cm railgun for point blank defense.  The reason for the higher rate of fire is that a 10cm railgun uses approximately 3.5 spaces while a all up gauss cannon uses 6.  By the time that you through in the turret weight the gauss cannon are often up to 8hs per installation.  While they have four times the chance to hit of the railgun, two railguns are about equal to one gauss cannon with a rate of fire of 3.  At four the tradeoff is more problematical and from five on the higher rate of fire of the gauss cannon makes the difference.  

Oddly enough from what I have said above, neither weapon is my prefered close in point defense.  I personally like the mesons.  They become a very usefull dual weapon, while not as efficient at knocking down missiles, they are longer ranged and any enemy ship which does get into range is in trouble as they are ignoring all of its passive defenses.  Overall they are about 80% as effective as the railguns at lower tech and maybe 75% as effective at higher tech levels for shooting down missiles.  Against ships however a 15cm meson is fairly long ranged and with a rate of fire of every five seconds quite dangerous.

Brian

[Charlie Beeler]

As far as the railguns go, I usually use them for point defense early on, untill I can get a good rate of fire on the gauss weapons (5 or better)  At this point when they are mounted on turrets they are better than the 10cm railgun for point blank defense.  The reason for the higher rate of fire is that a 10cm railgun uses approximately 3.5 spaces while a all up gauss cannon uses 6.  By the time that you through in the turret weight the gauss cannon are often up to 8hs per installation.  While they have four times the chance to hit of the railgun, two railguns are about equal to one gauss cannon with a rate of fire of 3.  At four the tradeoff is more problematical and from five on the higher rate of fire of the gauss cannon makes the difference.

That's mostly true as long as the missiles only about twice as fast as your base fire control tracking speed.  After that the degradation of the hull mounted RG starts to be out performed by PD suite's of 4x tracking speed fire controls and matching turrets with GC's at ROF of 2 or greater set to final defense of 10k/km.  

My current games dedicated escorts look like this at first:

Code: [Select]

Enterprise class Escort Cruiser    10000 tons     815 Crew     1706.6 BP      TCS 200  TH 330  EM 480
3300 km/s     Armour 4-41     Shields 16-300     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 3     PPV 42
Annual Failure Rate: 266%    IFR: 3.7%    Maintenance Capacity 320 MSP    Max Repair 320 MSP
Magazine 520    

Ion Engine E8.4 ts33 (10)    Power 66    Efficiency 0.84    Signature 33    Armour 0    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres    Range 42.9 billion km   (150 days at full power)
Gamma R300/14 Shields (8)   Total Fuel Cost  112 Litres per day

Quad Gauss Cannon S2-R1-100 Turret (1x8)    Range 10,000km     TS: 16000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 1    ROF 5        1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
PD Fire Control S04 24-16000 (1)    Max Range: 48,000 km   TS: 16000 km/s     79 58 38 17 0 0 0 0 0 0

Size 2 Missile Launcher (5)    Missile Size 2    Rate of Fire 20
CM Fire Control FC48-R1 (1)     Range 1.4m km    Resolution 1
CM-2-1 (260)  Speed: 24,000 km/s   End: 0.9m    Range: 1.3m km   WH: 1    Size: 2    TH: 224 / 134 / 67

CM Search Sensor S320-R1 (1)     GPS 320     Range 3.2m km    Resolution 1

ECCM-1 (2)         ECM 10

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

3 of these defended a task group against 3 precursor cruisers throwing missiles at 30k/kps in salvos of 5 every 15 seconds... and stopped the attack cold.  Magazines where down to about 5% when the attack broke off.  Of the 20 odd missiles that got through the counter missiles only 2 survived to attack.  Granted the salvos had been reduced to 1 or 2 missiles out of 3 salvos of 5, but I don't think railguns limited to 4k/kps tracking would have been much good.

The current generation escort looks like this, but is untried in combat at this time:

Code: [Select]

Enterprise B class Escort Cruiser    10000 tons     840 Crew     2070 BP      TCS 200  TH 308  EM 480
4400 km/s     Armour 3-41     Shields 16-300     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 3     PPV 44
Annual Failure Rate: 228%    IFR: 3.2%    Maintenance Capacity 453 MSP    Max Repair 320 MSP
Magazine 520    

Magneto-plasma Drive E7.2 (10)    Power 88    Efficiency 0.72    Signature 30.8    Armour 0    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 240,000 Litres    Range 60.0 billion km   (157 days at full power)
Gamma R300/14 Shields (8)   Total Fuel Cost  112 Litres per day

Quad Gauss Cannon S3-R1-100 Turret TS-20k (1x12)    Range 10,000km     TS: 20000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 1    ROF 5        1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
PD Fire Control S04 24-16000 (1)    Max Range: 48,000 km   TS: 16000 km/s     79 58 38 17 0 0 0 0 0 0

Size 2 Missile Launcher (5)    Missile Size 2    Rate of Fire 20
CM Fire Control FC105-R1 (1)     Range 3.2m km    Resolution 1
CM-2-3 (260)  Speed: 33,300 km/s   End: 0.7m    Range: 1.5m km   WH: 1    Size: 2    TH: 299 / 179 / 89

CM Search Sensor S320-R1 (1)     GPS 320     Range 3.2m km    Resolution 1

ECCM-1 (2)         ECM 10

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

The new 20k/kps fire control has been delayed and the counter missile launchers are overdue for being replaced by size 1 systems with a 5 second cylcic rate.  

It's not perfect by any means.  Huge amounts of mass have been dedicated to point blank defense to is probably better used for additional counter missile batteries.  But my BuShips is addiment about the requirement for final defensive fire.  At this point only the escort cruisers have them, but there is a faction pushing for single or dual turrets on all cruisers or above.

[Beersatron]

With your 2nd generation Quad Gauss cannon:

Say there are 2 missile salvos, #001 is 3 missiles and #002 is 6 missiles.

Your Quad Gauss fires at #001 and destroys all 3 missiles using 8 shots, does it then switch to #002 during that turn and fires the final 4 shots or will it not be able to?

I am not at home atm, but I created a few testbed lasers and turrets and came up with a 5k ton patrol destroyer that has a single 'Triple 12cm Near ultra Violet Turret' which has C4 giving it a 5 second rof. I power it using 2 reactors each giving 6 power, that way if one gets taken out the other might survive the damage and continue giving me something to shoot with.

iirc it has 120k km range and I think I gave it a tracking speed of 12k km/s. 50% effectiveness is 96k km I think.

With 6 armour and 6 shields and 5k km/s speed my thoughts are for jump point defense and jump point scouting. The triple turret doubles as both PD and offensive weapon, depending on the circumstances.

I actually just had a fight with an NPR 2 days ago where I was using my 10k ton missile cruisers. I jumped into the system (I knew the NPRs were in system) (with 1 CA, 1CE and 1 SCL) and within the same 5second increment that I jumped they hit me with 8 ships worth of plasma cannonades - they were camping the JP!!  

So, on the next battle, I am going to bring the DDs and see about keeping them at 96k km whilst going to rapid fire on the triple lasers


(sorry for thread hijack!)

[alexwildstar (OP)]

Bah no high jacking from what I can see it still discussing the fine points of ship and fleet construction for us a newbies.

[Charlie Beeler]

With your 2nd generation Quad Gauss cannon:

Say there are 2 missile salvos, #001 is 3 missiles and #002 is 6 missiles.

Your Quad Gauss fires at #001 and destroys all 3 missiles using 8 shots, does it then switch to #002 during that turn and fires the final 4 shots or will it not be able to?<snip>

Unlike missiles, beam fire control won't switch targets that way.  Next increment it will switch if there is a valid salvo.