Author Topic: Size of Commercial Ships / Civilian Contracts  (Read 7653 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SteveAlt (OP)

  • Global Moderator
  • Rear Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 820
  • Thanked: 8 times
Size of Commercial Ships / Civilian Contracts
« on: March 25, 2009, 01:46:17 PM »
While lying awake last night a disturbing thought occurred to me. I am trying to make Aurora as "realistic" as possible, or at the very least internally consistent so I am probably going to have to tackle the following problem in v4.1.

A cryogenic transport module is 10 hull spaces, or about 500 tons, and can carry 10,000 colonists. It occurred to me that an average person weighs perhaps 12 stone (in UK terms), which is 168 lbs or 76 kg. If we round that to 80kg then a 500 ton module is 500,000 kilograms and is equal to only 6250 people even without the cryogenic equipment. Assuming the individual cryogenic modules weigh more than the person they contain, which seems likely even with advanced technology, then the cryogenic transport module is way too small, by a factor of somewhere between 4 and 5. Assuming the individual module+passenger weighs 250 kg then a 500 ton module would hold 2000 people, or the existing module would increase in size to 50 hull spaces and retain the 10,000 person capacity and the same cost. In the former case this effectively reduces the capacity of existing colony ships by eighty percent, which has significant implications for the speed and cost of colonization. In the latter case, colony ships would have the same cost but be almost five times slower, assuming the same engines. It's not quite as bad as it sounds because colony ships are effectively maintenance free so you can just build more without any long-term maintenance issues. I could also increase the chance of civilian colony ships to take up the slack. The upside is that colonization would be more realistic in terms of time and likely ship capacity.

This got me thinking about cargo holds as well. It's pretty unrealistic to think that five 500 ton holds could transport an entire factory complex, even if it is broken down for transport. That 2500 ton requirement should probably be more like 25,000 tons. Assuming I did increase the size of cargo holds by a factor of ten without changing their cost that makes cargo ships ten times as big and almost ten times as slow assuming the same number of engines.

In more general terms that would also mean that cargo ships and colony ships became much larger and slower than warships, which does seems more realistic. It would also mean that commercial traffic would almost certainly need jump gates, because of the individual ship size, and that jump gates would effectively become the sign of 'civilization'. Also, commercial shipping would require substantially larger shipyards, which would mean I would need to create a second shipyard type for commercial designs, which would be much cheaper to build and increase in size but would only be able to build non-warships. Again that seems realistic as in the real world there are many yards capable of building very large freighters but very few capable of building very large warships.

I would appreciate player thoughts on the above musing and the potential implications

I have also been considering ways to change civilian traffic, which partly would offset some of the above implications. At the moment, the reason that commercial traffic exists at all is not clear. The game assumes that colonists pay for their passage, which generates income for the civilian shipping line, and presumably infrastructure is a pre-requisite for colonization so there is a reason to deliver that in order to facilitate further income from colonization. However, that still doesn't explain why they would deliver colonists to some distant frozen wasteland instead of the garden planet next door.

Therefore I am tempted to create a contract system. A player would specify what needed to be transported, the start and destination systems and the wealth payment for delivery. Civilian ships would then fulfil that contract and receive the wealth. If there are multiple contracts available the civilians would decide which represented the best deal in terms of time required vs wealth gained, including the time to reach the start point. A contract might be "transport ten million civilians from Earth to Planet X for a total wealth payment of 1000". As individual ships transported colonists, they would receive a fraction of that amount based on the fraction of colonists transported. The chance of new civilian ships being built would be based on the number and type of outstanding contracts.

If I did this, the existing spaceport/convoy system would also be replaced with a new civilian trade system using a number of "export points" and "import points" building up on each planet. Civilian ships would look for opportunities to move export points to planets with import points. Each export point would be worth a set amount for the player and the civilian shipping line once it arrived. Civilian shipping lines would include these opportunities in their decisions regarding player contracts.

In the above scenario, civilian ships from one Empire could be authorised to fulfil contacts and export point transfers from another Empire. This could be allowed specifically by the player or perhaps as a result of a trade treaty. In this case, export and import points could be interchangeable between the two Empire so it would likely increase wealth generation.

One final option could be tarriffs for passage of ships of one Empire through a jump point controlled by another Empire. The amounts could be set by the player and control of key nexus system might be worth quite a lot in terms of income generated from tariffs. Civilian shipping lines would include tarrif costs in their consideration of which contracts to take. Treaties could waive the tarriff costs for specific Empires. All this would need a lot of work on my part but it would create a much more realistic civilian shipping scenario. It would likely generate a lot more traffic than at the moment and it would be distributed according to economic need. Protecting all that shipping would require naval forces :)

Steve
 

Offline Kurt

  • Gold Supporter
  • Vice Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1766
  • Thanked: 3389 times
  • 2021 Supporter 2021 Supporter : Donate for 2021
    Gold Supporter Gold Supporter : Support the forums with a Gold subscription
    2022 Supporter 2022 Supporter : Donate for 2022
    2023 Supporter 2023 Supporter : Donate for 2023
Re: Size of Commercial Ships / Civilian Contracts
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2009, 04:00:15 PM »
Quote from: "SteveAlt"
While lying awake last night a disturbing thought occurred to me. I am trying to make Aurora as "realistic" as possible, or at the very least internally consistent so I am probably going to have to tackle the following problem in v4.1.

A cryogenic transport module is 10 hull spaces, or about 500 tons, and can carry 10,000 colonists. It occurred to me that an average person weighs perhaps 12 stone (in UK terms), which is 168 lbs or 76 kg. If we round that to 80kg then a 500 ton module is 500,000 kilograms and is equal to only 6250 people even without the cryogenic equipment. Assuming the individual cryogenic modules weigh more than the person they contain, which seems likely even with advanced technology, then the cryogenic transport module is way too small, by a factor of somewhere between 4 and 5. Assuming the individual module+passenger weighs 250 kg then a 500 ton module would hold 2000 people, or the existing module would increase in size to 50 hull spaces and retain the 10,000 person capacity and the same cost. In the former case this effectively reduces the capacity of existing colony ships by eighty percent, which has significant implications for the speed and cost of colonization. In the latter case, colony ships would have the same cost but be almost five times slower, assuming the same engines. It's not quite as bad as it sounds because colony ships are effectively maintenance free so you can just build more without any long-term maintenance issues. I could also increase the chance of civilian colony ships to take up the slack. The upside is that colonization would be more realistic in terms of time and likely ship capacity.

This got me thinking about cargo holds as well. It's pretty unrealistic to think that five 500 ton holds could transport an entire factory complex, even if it is broken down for transport. That 2500 ton requirement should probably be more like 25,000 tons. Assuming I did increase the size of cargo holds by a factor of ten without changing their cost that makes cargo ships ten times as big and almost ten times as slow assuming the same number of engines.

In more general terms that would also mean that cargo ships and colony ships became much larger and slower than warships, which does seems more realistic. It would also mean that commercial traffic would almost certainly need jump gates, because of the individual ship size, and that jump gates would effectively become the sign of 'civilization'. Also, commercial shipping would require substantially larger shipyards, which would mean I would need to create a second shipyard type for commercial designs, which would be much cheaper to build and increase in size but would only be able to build non-warships. Again that seems realistic as in the real world there are many yards capable of building very large freighters but very few capable of building very large warships.

I would appreciate player thoughts on the above musing and the potential implications

I have no real quibble with your chain of thoughts, except to note that you probably shouldn't be laying awake at night thinking about Aurora  :)

Steve[/quote]

I really, really like the idea of tariffs for transiting through another government's jump gate, and if I could I'd have something like that in the 6 Powers Campaign.  I also like what you've said above about export and import points, I think you are on the right track.  

As things stand, I've given the area of "international interaction" a lot of thought.  Aurora currently doesn't do very well with that, especially in situations where there are multiple governments on the same planet.  The reality is that such nations would have a lot of interaction, even when they try to limit it.  I think something like this would go a ways towards increasing international interaction.

Kurt
 

Offline ShadoCat

  • Commander
  • *********
  • Posts: 327
  • Thanked: 1 times
    • http://www.assistsolar.com
Re: Size of Commercial Ships / Civilian Contracts
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2009, 06:10:10 PM »
Why not just consider the weight of the colony modules and cargo holds to be the dry weight.  Then just modify the speed of the ship by the amount of weight that it is actually carrying.

Offline Erik L

  • Administrator
  • Admiral of the Fleet
  • *****
  • Posts: 5657
  • Thanked: 372 times
  • Forum Admin
  • Discord Username: icehawke
  • 2020 Supporter 2020 Supporter : Donate for 2020
    2022 Supporter 2022 Supporter : Donate for 2022
    Gold Supporter Gold Supporter : Support the forums with a Gold subscription
    2021 Supporter 2021 Supporter : Donate for 2021
Re: Size of Commercial Ships / Civilian Contracts
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2009, 06:57:53 PM »
On the contract portion.

If you offer a contract for 10,000 pop to Planet 10, maybe have different shipping lines make bids.

Offline Father Tim

  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 2162
  • Thanked: 531 times
Re: Size of Commercial Ships / Civilian Contracts
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2009, 11:17:46 PM »
All of your musings sound good to me.  I like civilian ships being bigger than warships (as with HH's approx 10-to-1 ratio and a modern double-hulled tanker vs the US Navy's 'dead president' CVNs), and the more commerce traffic there is around for raiding, the better.
 

Offline cjblack

  • Petty Officer
  • **
  • Posts: 18
Re: Size of Commercial Ships / Civilian Contracts
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2009, 01:39:16 AM »
As a "quick fix" have you considered increasing the ratio of tons to hull spaces by a factor of 5 to 10?
 

Offline James Patten

  • Lt. Commander
  • ********
  • J
  • Posts: 257
  • Thanked: 2 times
Re: Size of Commercial Ships / Civilian Contracts
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2009, 06:25:36 AM »
Cryo/cargo holds should mass less when empty, and more when full.   As an empty cargo hold is probably mostly empty space, with space for forklifts or railroad tracks or beaming devices or however the cargo moves from point A (planet) to B (ship).  Cryo holds when emtpy should mass something more than cargo.  When full I'd think cryo would mass less and cargo mass more.  Reduce or increase your speed accordingly.  That way the colony ship is slow on the trip out but faster returning home for more colonists.
 

Offline IanD

  • Registered
  • Commodore
  • **********
  • Posts: 725
  • Thanked: 20 times
Re: Size of Commercial Ships / Civilian Contracts
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2009, 04:34:15 AM »
10 X more trips for the same number of colonists uses 10 X more fuel, consuming more soruim. Thus you hit the fuel crunch much earlier when you may not have an alternative source or sufficient funding to overcome it making reliance on civilian shipping much greater. Should all transport of every thing to the colonies be privatised, few Governments now have the ability to move large numbers of people (or even military personnel – see Falklands war).

As for the split between military and civilian construction, I think of civilian & military space industries as akin to the aeronautical industries today rather than the wet navy & commercial shipbuilding. Some manufacturers do both, but the skill and ability is in the design team, rather than the production end with techniques pioneered on military jets eventually making their way into commercial airliners years later. (But even the now defunct 1950’sV-bomber force was essentially hand crafted :) .)

Regards
IanD
 

Offline sloanjh

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral of the Fleet
  • *****
  • Posts: 2805
  • Thanked: 112 times
  • 2020 Supporter 2020 Supporter : Donate for 2020
    2021 Supporter 2021 Supporter : Donate for 2021
Re: Size of Commercial Ships / Civilian Contracts
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2009, 09:32:52 AM »
Hi Steve,

  I'd like to echo Kurts' concerns about slowing down the rate of economic expansion.  As it stands, I've found it requires a significant economic effort to create useful colonies in a reasonable amount of game-play (i.e. wall-clock, not Aurora calendar) time.  If the rate of colonization were cut by an order of magnitude, I think it would kill the game for me.  That being said, I've always had a little bird twittering in the back of my head about how one would manage to cram 50K people into a wet-navy-destroyer-sized hull.  In addition, I think the observations about relative size of civilian and military ships (both IRL and in the Honorverse) are appropriate.

  So it seems to me that the trick is "how do I make civilian ships significantly bigger than military ships without seriously impacting the cost-per-person-km or cost-per-factory-km".  Since most of the cost of civilian shipping is in cryo-storage and engines, it seems like the way to do that is to make sure that those two systems aren't prohibitively expensive.  Cryo-storage is easy - since it isn't used by military designs you can just cut the cost (or even work it as "regular" life support).  It's engines that are tough - how do you set it up so that a civilian ship with 10x the mass of a military ship doesn't cost 5 times as much (10x for the engines, which I cut by 2 to model the absences of weapons and sensors)?  Note that this is the same old "civilian engines" conundrum again - "how do you make efficient, low-speed civilian engines without screwing up military designs?"

  The best thought I've had so far is to make outdated technology significantly less expensive.  If you gave a 2x or 4x cut per tech level to the build cost of a system, then civilian designs could use lower-tech (and slower) engines at a significant cost reduction.  As a concrete example, if your current capacitor recharge rate was 3, and you decided to design a "Hyperdyne Systems 3000" laser using recharge-2 capacitors, the cost of the capacitors would only be 50% of what it would be if the your recharge tech level was 2.  I used capacitors since I could actually remember the levels, but the same would apply to engines.  If you go down this road, I would recommend that a new system actually be designed rather than just having the cost magically drop.  In the example above, the Hyperdyne 3000 might be replacing a Hyperdyne 2000 laser which had exactly the same operating characteristics, except it would be more expensive because it was designed when capacitor tech was at recharge-2 (rather than 3).

  If you're worried that e.g. a 2x reduction would make low-tech alternatives too cheap, there's still mineral and fuel cost.  The only thing I've suggested changing is build cost, so a 10x as big ship would still cost 10x the minerals.  I don't know if leaving mineral and fuel costs alone would end up making colonization costs prohibitive (bad) or prevent players from building huge military navies composed of 1- or 2-generation outdated ships (good), i.e. which way it would kick play balance.  I suspect that fuel is going to be the problem - all those huge civilian ships would consume a huge amount of fuel compared to the military.  Here's a thought: why not have fuel for civilian shipping come from the civilian economy?  In addition to resetting the maintainence clock, the civilian maintainence facility could also fill the tanks of the civilian designs.  This actually mimics real-life - military fuel consumption is small compared to civilian.  The only problem is that you'd have to prevent fuel transfers between civilian and military designs (to avoid free civilian fuel getting into military vessels).

John
 

Offline James Patten

  • Lt. Commander
  • ********
  • J
  • Posts: 257
  • Thanked: 2 times
Re: Size of Commercial Ships / Civilian Contracts
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2009, 11:14:22 AM »
Here's another thought: why should civilian ships require fuel?  As I recall, Steve has said that NPRs do not use fuel (or more to the point, they don't have to worry about the supply of it).  Probably civilian ships should be the same.
 

Offline SteveAlt (OP)

  • Global Moderator
  • Rear Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 820
  • Thanked: 8 times
Re: Size of Commercial Ships / Civilian Contracts
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2009, 12:55:35 PM »
Quote from: "Kurt"
I have no real quibble with your chain of thoughts, except to note that you probably shouldn't be laying awake at night thinking about Aurora  :) .

My only comment is to point out that slowing down freighters and colony ships, while it may make sense, will effectively slow down economic expansion by approximately the same factor.  I routinely evaluate colonization opportunities by the length of time it takes for a freighter or colony ship to make a round trip.  The shorter the trip, the more trips the ships can make, and the fast the colony is established and the faster it can grow.  Absent other pressures, this situation almost always drives my R&D efforts to focus on engine development, to develop faster and faster engines to propel my colony-establishment ships faster, to ensure that I can establish colonies further and further away in reasonable amounts of time.  

Having said that, I make no judgements about whether this change is good or bad, I'm just noting the inevitable result of slowing down the ships that fuel economic expansion.  
I do agree that making that change in isolation would slow down economic growth fairly dramatically. Now I have done the check on cryo-capacity though it will continue to nag at me until I fix it. The trick will be making other changes to accomodate the new reality without unbalancing something else.

Quote
I am still not convinced that the whole "civilian" ship section of Aurora isn't more of a pain than it is worth, but then, it probably reflects reality much better than not having anything like it.  
Civilians were very basic in v3.1, a little better in v3.2 and a lot of their pathfinding issues are resolved in v4.0 so they are improving. The reason for the whole civilian sector is that I want a living breathing Empire with commercial traffic. In almost all other space games, the player has total control over everything, which in itself is unrealistic. While the Soviet Union in space might have centralised control, the US, Western  or other market-led economics will likely end up with a lot more civilian controlled ships than government controlled. When a large alien invasion force comes calling, it should be complete chaos among the local commercial traffic and protecting that traffic should be important to the player.

Quote
I really, really like the idea of tariffs for transiting through another government's jump gate, and if I could I'd have something like that in the 6 Powers Campaign.  I also like what you've said above about export and import points, I think you are on the right track.  

As things stand, I've given the area of "international interaction" a lot of thought.  Aurora currently doesn't do very well with that, especially in situations where there are multiple governments on the same planet.  The reality is that such nations would have a lot of interaction, even when they try to limit it.  I think something like this would go a ways towards increasing international interaction.
I agree. I have been giving this further thought and perhaps an Empire would actually need forces in place to monitor such traffic. In other words, only ships you can identify will be paying tarrifs. It will all be automated in terms of detection and payment but you would need to deploy some type of customs station or patrol ship in systems or near jump points that you claim.

Steve
 

Offline SteveAlt (OP)

  • Global Moderator
  • Rear Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 820
  • Thanked: 8 times
Re: Size of Commercial Ships / Civilian Contracts
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2009, 12:59:13 PM »
Quote from: "ShadoCat"
Why not just consider the weight of the colony modules and cargo holds to be the dry weight.  Then just modify the speed of the ship by the amount of weight that it is actually carrying.
I have tried to avoid any on-going calculations for speed based on changing mass. Otherwise, it could be argued that ships will increase speed as they use fuel and that different types of cargo may have different densities and therefore different mass for the same volume. Ships that have fired their ordnance could also be faster, or carriers that have launched their fighters. While realistic and relatively easy to handle from a programming POV, it could add a lot of complexity from a player perspective without a commeasurate increase in gameplay.

Steve
 

Offline SteveAlt (OP)

  • Global Moderator
  • Rear Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 820
  • Thanked: 8 times
Re: Size of Commercial Ships / Civilian Contracts
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2009, 01:06:54 PM »
Quote from: "Erik Luken"
On the contract portion.

If you offer a contract for 10,000 pop to Planet 10, maybe have different shipping lines make bids.
Interesting idea. At the moment there is only a civilian sector as a whole rather than individual private companies. It probably wouldn't be very difficult to flag each civilian ship as belonging to a particular company and generating company names would be easy enough. Having them issue bids would be trickier though as it places more work on the player to manage those bids. The idea in my head at the moment is that different shipping lines would each take a portion of the contract as their ships became available. In that way the process is entirely automated after the player creates the contract and the "competition" is actually between different Empires to attract commercial shipping, including commercial shipping from other Empires.

I do like the individual shipping lines idea though and will likely build that in, along with a screen where you can see the published profit/loss statements for each. In that case, they would start with a set amount of capital and have to generate the wealth to purchase additional ships. It would be fascinating to see which lines grow over time.

Steve
 

Offline SteveAlt (OP)

  • Global Moderator
  • Rear Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 820
  • Thanked: 8 times
Re: Size of Commercial Ships / Civilian Contracts
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2009, 01:08:28 PM »
Quote from: "Father Tim"
All of your musings sound good to me.  I like civilian ships being bigger than warships (as with HH's approx 10-to-1 ratio and a modern double-hulled tanker vs the US Navy's 'dead president' CVNs), and the more commerce traffic there is around for raiding, the better.
I agree. With plenty of shipping about and with that shipping carrying wealth around in the form of export points then raiders and pirates become a realistic option.

Steve
 

Offline SteveAlt (OP)

  • Global Moderator
  • Rear Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 820
  • Thanked: 8 times
Re: Size of Commercial Ships / Civilian Contracts
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2009, 01:17:14 PM »
Quote from: "cjblack"
As a "quick fix" have you considered increasing the ratio of tons to hull spaces by a factor of 5 to 10?
That's a good idea but not quite as quick a fix as you might think :)

While its true that increasing hull size would solve the 'realism' problem for cargo holds and cryo modules, it would also increase the size of all the warships, making destroyers 50,000 tons or so and cruisers perhaps 100-200,000 tons. That would actually fit match up well with the warships in the Honorverse but the Aurora ratio between freighter and warship size would remain the same and I think I would prefer larger and slower commercial vessels in comparison to smaller and faster warships. The change would also up fast attack craft to 10,000 tons and 'fighters' to 2000 tons or so. Finally, while I initially used a global constant for the hull space to tonnage ratio, over the last couple of years I have pretty much assumed that wasn't going to change and the code will be riddled with functions that assume the existing ratio. Finding them all might be tricky. So, while it is a good idea, a combination of my programming laziness and my concept of the various units in the game means I probably won't be able to use it.

Steve