Author Topic: How do sensors work?  (Read 2828 times)

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Offline Girlinhat (OP)

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How do sensors work?
« on: October 07, 2011, 11:54:28 PM »
Including fire control varieties.   In specific, how are they shared within a group?  I've heard to make the flagship an armored hulk with big sensors, which makes sense because the flagship will spot enemies and the fleet itself will take them out.   But how far are sensors shared?  Passive sensors are clearly shared, I think actives are as well, as that's just a more refined version of passive really, but I'm not sure on fire control.   Can one big ship sport a good fire control module and the others can piggyback off its data feed?  I'm guessing no, as I've heard people advise "1 FC per X weapons" but that doesn't quite make sense to me either.   How does the FC:Weapon ratio effect damage output?

For reference, I'm thinking about fairly small, mostly disposable missile boats with 5-10 launchers each and not much else, and I'm looking at my options for stripping down their size.
 

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: How do sensors work?
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2011, 12:06:08 AM »
Sensors are shared not only inside a Task Group, but system wide.

Firecons are not shared at all. Each ship needs the Firecons for its own weapons.

Damage is not affected at all by the firecons. What the reccomendations of 1 firecon per x weapons is getting at is, that each firecon can only target a single target at a time. Especially for anti-missile systems, you want to be able to engage several hostile salvos every 5 second increments. For anti-ship weapons, there might also be the need to engage several targets at the same time (think swarm attacks by fighers/gunboats).
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Offline Girlinhat (OP)

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Re: How do sensors work?
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2011, 12:16:29 AM »
Oh, that makes sense!

So, if you've got 2 FC and 10 AMM launchers, for example, then you're likely firing off 5 AMMs at 2 different incoming missiles?

Also, how do active sensors handle stealth situations?  Particularly, if the enemy has a 100 resolution active sensor, and my 100 size stealth ship is within his range, is it automatically detected?  Or rather, how does thermal/EM signature interact with active sensors, and should I worry about this much?  I really like the idea of having a relatively small force built like a brick, to spot enemies, draw attention, and soak fire, while a few stealth ships are shooting missiles from 100k range.   The enemy can be distracted by my sensor fleet's strong armor and close range weapons, while the stealthy ones sit at far range and minimal thermal sig, and throw missiles from out of nowhere.

On that note, I'm also curious about missile sizes.   The smallest launcher is size 1, but you can make even smaller missiles, and make them a stage 2.   Is it possible to make a stage 2 missile that's too small to be detected?  Even if it's just packing 1 point of damage, it could sandblast in swarming salvos.
 

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: How do sensors work?
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2011, 02:02:02 AM »
You can set your AMM launchers to launch X missile at every hostile missile, where X can be between 1 and 5. Personally, I start with setting it to launch 3 per hostile missile and adjust according to the intecept chances (Aurora handles the bookkeeping part, counting missiles from all ships engaging in PD duty)
So, yes, if the enemy is launching many small salvos, you would engage two salvos per reload cycle.

Stealth:
If you 100 size ship has stealth reduce its apparent size to, say 50, the res-100 sensor would detect it at 1/4 its maximum range.
If your ships size is _reduced_ to size 100, then yes, the res-100 sensor would see it at max. range.

Thermal is totally independant from actives and detects, well, thermal emissions (engines, basicly)

Your EM-tech influences efficiency of your actives, but the EM-sensor is as well fully independant from your active sensors.

As a rule, all of my combat ships carry a small thermal sensor as backup. My fleet scouts mount a huuuuuge thermal and a seriously sized EM (sometimes also huuuuuge). It is realy a _very_ bad idea to run around with a giant active sensor - active. It would be like a sub running around with its sonar pinging away all the time. Yes, you would see anything that enters sensor coverage, but every enemy EM-sensor will pick up your sensor´s emission from across the system.

I assume you meant "from 100m range", ´cause 100k is knife-fight range in aurora :)


re. missile sizes:
Steve tweaked it, so you no longer can make missiles < size 1. This was due to someone making missiles with dozens (hundreds?) of 0.01 sized chaff submunitions and the AI not being able to say: "Ok, there is no way those tiny things can carry any warhead, so I will only shoot at the bigger ones"
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Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: How do sensors work?
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2011, 06:21:37 AM »
re. missile sizes:
Steve tweaked it, so you no longer can make missiles < size 1. This was due to someone making missiles with dozens (hundreds?) of 0.01 sized chaff submunitions and the AI not being able to say: "Ok, there is no way those tiny things can carry any warhead, so I will only shoot at the bigger ones"

I also had some concerns about performance :)

In Newtonian Aurora the smallest possible missile will be 60% smaller. 1 ton instead of 1 MSP (which 2.5 tons).

Steve
 

Offline Girlinhat (OP)

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Re: How do sensors work?
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2011, 10:06:40 AM »
Oh, is that how cloaking works?  It seemed, to me, to simply reduce the thermal signature of a ship.   It didn't quite say that it reduces the effective HS for sensor detection. . .

I'm surprised by just how much stealth there is in Aurora.   Really, in space, there is no stealth.   Anything mounting a thermal telescope will spot your 98 degree body as it's surrounded by empty space that's 3 degrees above absolute zero.   Your nuclear engine and that supercomputer running your tracking algorithms is going to produce so much heat your ship stands out like a bonfire.   The fact that Aurora ships can hide at all. . .  well I guess there must be some physics fudging to make things fun, and the trans-newtonian materials help to hand-wave that.   It adds a lot of thought to things either way, to be concerned with visibility.

I also haven't actually meddled much in combat commands yet, I guess I need to look more through that and figure out exactly how targeting works. . .
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: How do sensors work?
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2011, 10:11:45 AM »
Oh, is that how cloaking works?  It seemed, to me, to simply reduce the thermal signature of a ship.   It didn't quite say that it reduces the effective HS for sensor detection. . .

I'm surprised by just how much stealth there is in Aurora.   Really, in space, there is no stealth.   Anything mounting a thermal telescope will spot your 98 degree body as it's surrounded by empty space that's 3 degrees above absolute zero.   Your nuclear engine and that supercomputer running your tracking algorithms is going to produce so much heat your ship stands out like a bonfire.   The fact that Aurora ships can hide at all. . .  well I guess there must be some physics fudging to make things fun, and the trans-newtonian materials help to hand-wave that.   It adds a lot of thought to things either way, to be concerned with visibility.

I also haven't actually meddled much in combat commands yet, I guess I need to look more through that and figure out exactly how targeting works. . .

It sounds like you are referring to the thermal reduction technology used in engines. That masks the thermal signature in the same manner as a modern stealth aircraft tries to masks the thermal signatures of its engines  There is also cloaking technology in Aurora that reduces the target cross section of the ship, making it harder for active sensors to detect

Steve
 

Offline Girlinhat (OP)

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Re: How do sensors work?
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2011, 12:59:12 PM »
Right, I get that now, I was just thinking that thermal engine reduction and cloaking did the same thing.   The "Cloaking Sensor Reduction" seemed to imply the same thing as "Thermal Reduction".   Somewhat clearly language may be needed, like "Effective Sensor Footprint" instead, or "Active Sensor Evasion"?
 

Offline Mel Vixen

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Re: How do sensors work?
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2011, 03:48:26 PM »
Its just a small bonus but a higher efficincy for engines (which also reduces explosion chance) reduces the heat output too.
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Offline UnLimiTeD

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Re: How do sensors work?
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2011, 06:50:35 PM »
You'll have to live with the terminology.
Given Steve's heavily working on Aurora FTL, which I wholeheartedly endorse, (Man I'm looking forward to that), nothings gonna change about names in the future, that stood there for years.^^

As for your concern, keep in mind all Aurora Sensors are superluminal.
It's not about "seeing there is heat", but knowing there is something producing heat, at just that second.

For a Steallth Ship, you need both TCS(target cross section) Reduction as well as engine thermal reduction, but if you plan to assume an ambush position slowly, 50% would likely be sufficient on the later, you don't produce heat when idling.
 

Offline Girlinhat (OP)

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Re: How do sensors work?
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2011, 07:59:22 PM »
The big idea behind the stealth striker was to sit beyond engagement range.   In this case, it would probably be sporting some absurd 10 size missiles or something, and sit at maybe 1bil km range, where my current mainline missiles ships get only 40m km range.   This would allow the stealth ship to sit FAR outside the combat zone, and act as an artillery platform to hurl probably drones with large engines that ejected into second stage missiles with agile engines and warheads.   The only issue is, of course, seeing anything from that far out, so sensors would either have to be heavily armored or heavily stealth reliant to survive and get a lock on the target.   Drones/second stage would require its own guidance, of course.
 

Offline Din182

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Re: How do sensors work?
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2011, 12:12:58 AM »
1bil range is extremely far. Unless they're defending something, the enemy has a high chance of moving out of range in the 50 or so hours that would be required to reach that far.
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Offline Girlinhat (OP)

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Re: How do sensors work?
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2011, 01:05:47 AM »
Fair point there.   The big idea would be to double the size of whatever payload I was delivering, and mount that as a secondary in a pure engine drone, delivering a fast "engine sled" that then released an agile warhead.   Plus, it often would be used to break a defender.   Hostile PDCs or pickets or motherships, maybe colonies but a planet isn't going to evade an incoming drone.

My perpetual doctrine in wargames is to out-range the enemy.   I'm trying to take this to its irrational extreme.
 

Offline blue emu

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Re: How do sensors work?
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2011, 10:04:41 PM »
One point about having one FC per X anti-ship missile tubes... possibly already mentioned, I just skimmed the thread... is to divide your offensive broadside into several seperate salvos. Each defensive (PD) FC can only target one incoming salvo of missiles per 5-sec increment, so having your broadside divided into a number of salvos increases the odds of overloading the defender's PD-FCs and allowing some of your missiles to reach the target without ever being fired on.

An associated point is the number of tubes that you group under each anti-ship FC. Since the AI likes to fire three AMMs at each incoming salvo, I like to group (3xN)+1 anti-ship missile tubes under each offensive FC... 1, 4, 7, 10 and so on. That ensures that even if my opponent has PD missiles that are an almost guaranteed one-shot kill against my anti-ship missiles (for instance, if I'm fighting the Precursors early in the game, at low tech level), he will still need to waste a whole extra salvo of PD missiles to kill each incoming salvo. That might succeed in distracting his fire from a different, more dangerous salvo.