National Updates Comment Thread

[MarcAFK]

I'm sure there's a company somewhere who wants their valuable unobtanium.

[sneer]

[quote
"why are you doing this?"
"Because we want to fully exploit your world."
[/quote]

Earth RL potential nightmare ....

[alex_brunius]

even if you assume  that to be true, it only works inside the jumpgate network.  anyplace that requires a jumpship to get to has its access and communication completely controlled by the state.

Assuming jumpdrive technology is still a military/state controlled secret yes.

As we know all military inventions, especially those that are useful for civilian purposes tend to eventually find their ways into the civilian market ( either through legal or less legal means ). Give it say 5-20 years in an open society and 20-50 years in a close one and all manner of small civilian ships from private company prospectors wanting an edge to shady businesses or smugglers wanting to avoid attention and plain explorers or thrill seekers will own ships equipped with jump drives. Location of jump points is also simply a matter of information and as such can be traded to those with money providing an incentive for "entrepreneurs" either getting their hands on grav survey equipment or leaking secret government info.

[TallTroll]

>> Give it say 5-20 years in an open society and 20-50 years in a close one and all manner of small civilian ships from private company prospectors wanting an edge to shady businesses or smugglers wanting to avoid attention and plain explorers or thrill seekers will own ships equipped with jump drives

I disagree here. Even if the theoretical knowledge got out,

1) Where would you build / how would you pay for such a vessel? Most shipyards are government owned, and all are surely government monitored, even in open societies

2) How would you get an unregistered ship anywhere useful? 5 secs after launch, every Navy sees it, no-one they recognise owns it, it gets shot down

[alex_brunius]

I disagree here. Even if the theoretical knowledge got out,

1) Where would you build / how would you pay for such a vessel? Most shipyards are government owned, and all are surely government monitored, even in open societies

Where are all the hundreds of civilian trade ships built? Certainly not in any of your shipyards...

For every shipyard outside government control that can build a 20000 ton bulk cargo ship there should be at least a few dozen that can build ships between 5 - 2000 ton.

And remember we are talking about a setting with multiple government and break away states, there will always be at least a few other systems where you can get ships built and registered even if your own government is actively preventing this ( why would they? )

Is your government actively monitoring hundreds of small private shipyards among dozens of systems ( including those of hostile states ) to ensure no one builds and sells you a small space shuttle that doesn't comply with their standards?

2) How would you get an unregistered ship anywhere useful? 5 secs after launch, every Navy sees it, no-one they recognise owns it, it gets shot down

There wouldn't be many unregistered craft ( unless in the absolute fringe or pirate systems ).

How does today's smaller civilian ships and airplanes go anywhere useful without getting shot down by the Navy? Does you nations navy shoot to kill just because a civilian ship or airplane happens to be registered in the Bahamas and they are uncertain who is driving it?

Just because a ship or airplane today is registered doesn't mean it's in any way under control, just that it complied with the rules at the time and location of launch. I'm sure there are many civilian airplanes and ships around the globe that had modifications done to them after getting registered without informing the proper authorities or military ( or without the authorities or military even caring ).

With thousands of small ships around ( and more getting launched by the day the more advanced tech and cheaper they become ) it would become progressively easier to hide a retrofitted jump-drive on some of them ( if their civilian use is even banned by authorities in the first place, why are we assuming that now again? ).


The only plausible setting where you can prevent civilian jumps to a bigger degree despite later tech is an active military blockade or heavy police controls on all the actual jump points ( similar to an authority check today when you go through for example a canal with your ship or are forced to land with your airplane ).

[sublight]

For every shipyard outside government control that can build a 20000 ton bulk cargo ship there should be at least a few dozen that can build ships between 5 - 2000 ton.

Maybe, but also irrelevant. That is smaller than the minimum jump drive tech known so the civilians will not be moving off-network, and with jump points the military is probably picketing that system anyway for military training exercises.

Even if the civilian mining companies own a few dozen fighter-sized courier craft for in-system operations and even if a Saudi prince or two had acquired custom versions for personal use it is unlikely they would have the inclination, range, or endurance to wander as far as Eta Cassiopeiae... and even if they did they would probably only bounce off a military blockade.

I'd say the real weakness for exposure would come form the crewman of the military and commercial ships that have already visited. From the timeline it looks like the aliens have only been known for 2.5 years, so saying they are still secret (or at least nothing more than a discredited conspiracy theory) is plausible. Of course, sooner or later one of the civilian ships that visited will be scrapped and the former crew will start talking, a retiree will make a death bed confession, or a conscientious objector will defect and the urban legend will become scandal... but for now the secrecy could continue for at least a couple more years.

Edit: I stand corrected.

[alex_brunius]

Maybe, but also irrelevant. That is smaller than the minimum jump drive tech known so the civilians will not be moving off-network

Isn't the minimum jump drive size just if you want to escort other ships? For self jumps only they can be as small as you want to make them I think.

Even if the civilian mining companies own a few dozen fighter-sized courier craft for in-system operations and even if a Saudi prince or two had acquired custom versions for personal use it is unlikely they would have the inclination, range, or endurance to wander as far as Eta Cassiopeiae... and even if they did they would probably only bounce off a military blockade.

Regarding amount of small civilian spaceships I think we can envision a gradual scale.
- Initially they would be similar to airplanes 50-100 years ago ( just a few ultra rich enthusiasts owned one ).
- After a while the industry matures and they are more similar to private jets today ( still few in numbers but most bigger corporations or top wealthy would own one or be able to access one).
- More tech advancements and they become more like small ships today, quite many in numbers, far beyond what can be effectively monitored and controlled by authorities.
- Very high tech scenarios ( Engine tech 7/8 upwards ), small spacecraft are more like cars of today, everyone own one and use them to move around freely within the system or between systems at speed. The daily commute to your orbital space station where you work is becoming tedious...

I'd say the real weakness for exposure would come form the crewman of the military and commercial ships that have already visited.

Agreed. A colony of 300k+ inhabitants, major terraforming operations and military presence would probably expose millions to the system after a few years including rotations.

[Paul M]

In all probability the jig will be up the first time a ship goes into port for a shore leave and the crew goes into a bar.  Someone will get drunk and say the wrong thing.  Not to mention letters home, souvaniers or what not.  Keeping the fact aliens have been found secret unless they use draconian methods is unlikely to last any significant amount of time, less than 5 years at a guess based on gut feeling.  The value of selling that information is probably substantial so there is incentive for the disenchanted.  It also depends on the nature of the censorship that is typical for the society as even the lack of news would tip off the other nations there is something odd about Eta Cassiopia...mention that and you get dead silence...why is that?

As for the colony, it is unlikely that the human colony would not end up near the aliens.  This is due to the fact that habitation tends to cluster in specific geography.  It is possible to put the human colony in some wastelands the aliens don't inhabit but then the colony is isolated from water, farmland, resources, waterways, coast lines etc.  A small research base in the high artic to observe the aliens ... a thriving 300K person resource extraction settlement not likely.

Modern engineers planning bridges in europe often have to deal with the fact the best sites are occupied ... by Roman bridges or remains of them.  I would expect all the easily inhabitable land on the planet to be inhabited (unless there are isolated land masses for the colony to be placed on).

[Bremen]

In all probability the jig will be up the first time a ship goes into port for a shore leave and the crew goes into a bar.  Someone will get drunk and say the wrong thing.  Not to mention letters home, souvaniers or what not.  Keeping the fact aliens have been found secret unless they use draconian methods is unlikely to last any significant amount of time, less than 5 years at a guess based on gut feeling.  The value of selling that information is probably substantial so there is incentive for the disenchanted.  It also depends on the nature of the censorship that is typical for the society as even the lack of news would tip off the other nations there is something odd about Eta Cassiopia...mention that and you get dead silence...why is that?

While true, it's also pretty much equally true for navigation details and colonies that don't have intelligent natives. In that situation every nation on Earth would have agents camping out in spacer bars offering to buy them drinks for details about their trip, and any colonies and trade routes would rapidly become known to everyone.

However, that's probably not the kind of story Steve is interested in writing, and IMHO this whole discussion is really coming off as rather hostile to him, which I don't like. So hey, let's just assume the governments take precautions there; all civilian ship crews are subject to military restrictions or whatever, but get high pay in return or similar benefits. Maybe there are no civilian "yachts" due to the damage they could do with a ramming attack, or whatever. It's one of those details that doesn't really matter to the story.

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

While true, it's also pretty much equally true for navigation details and colonies that don't have intelligent natives. In that situation every nation on Earth would have agents camping out in spacer bars offering to buy them drinks for details about their trip, and any colonies and trade routes would rapidly become known to everyone.

However, that's probably not the kind of story Steve is interested in writing, and IMHO this whole discussion is really coming off as rather hostile to him, which I don't like. So hey, let's just assume the governments take precautions there; all civilian ship crews are subject to military restrictions or whatever, but get high pay in return or similar benefits. Maybe there are no civilian "yachts" due to the damage they could do with a ramming attack, or whatever. It's one of those details that doesn't really matter to the story.

Yes, the whole point of having a lot of different factions is that each one has different knowledge, otherwise everyone would know the same best systems / ruins and everyone would colonise those. Perhaps that is more realistic (I don't really have a strong opinion either way), but it wouldn't be as entertaining to play or read and I do have a strong opinion on that. I'm setting up this campaign to give different nations different problems. As I explained in the first setup post "The major issue I have found in the past with multiple races starting on Earth is that to an extent they all do similar things. They build ships to accomplish similar missions, explore the Sol JPs, explore the nearby systems and establish colonies, run into the same resource shortages, etc.. Therefore I thought it might be more interesting if each race was presented with a different set of problems".

I don't mind if someone doesn't like the setup, or cannot suspend disbelief in certain areas; it's a matter of personal opinion. In fact, I suspect 95% of gamers don't even like Aurora in general, regardless of the campaign, because it will only appeal to a small sub-set of people. People disagreeing with me doesn't really bother me - I've learned that life is so much easier that way . I will just say however that I am not going to change the way the campaign is running, as I am really enjoying it . I don't mind anyone else continuing to talk about the subject on in this thread but I'm going to withdraw from the debate on this particular issue. Happy to answer questions on other subjects related to the campaign.

[Sematary]

Yes, the whole point of having a lot of different factions is that each one has different knowledge, otherwise everyone would know the same best systems / ruins and everyone would colonise those. Perhaps that is more realistic (I don't really have a strong opinion either way), but it wouldn't be as entertaining to play or read and I do have a strong opinion on that. I'm setting up this campaign to give different nations different problems. As I explained in the first setup post "The major issue I have found in the past with multiple races starting on Earth is that to an extent they all do similar things. They build ships to accomplish similar missions, explore the Sol JPs, explore the nearby systems and establish colonies, run into the same resource shortages, etc.. Therefore I thought it might be more interesting if each race was presented with a different set of problems".

I don't mind if someone doesn't like the setup, or cannot suspend disbelief in certain areas; it's a matter of personal opinion. In fact, I suspect 95% of gamers don't even like Aurora in general, regardless of the campaign, because it will only appeal to a small sub-set of people. People disagreeing with me doesn't really bother me - I've learned that life is so much easier that way . I will just say however that I am not going to change the way the campaign is running, as I am really enjoying it . I don't mind anyone else continuing to talk about the subject on in this thread but I'm going to withdraw from the debate on this particular issue. Happy to answer questions on other subjects related to the campaign.

I know I am enjoying this. I think the whole passion in this debate arises from everyone involved enjoying the story.

[MWadwell]

I'm wondering if a future version could allow more information to be gathered on NPRs as a result of spies, or even minor intelligence just from having good relations and trading. Specifically economic information, knowledge of research they have (not stealing the tech itself) and maybe information on exploration, colony location etc, and some indication of how NPRs are interacting with each other.

Yeah, building this into the game would be good - as at the moment we are relying on Steve role playing it. (And while Steve is good at this, it isn't possible to include everything in the updates - as each update would be the size of a novel.)


Examples of this not yet mentioned spying (that is probably going on, but not yet written about in the AAR), is that immigration happening from neutral earth-bound countries. It would be incredibly easy to slip spies into a neutral third nation, and then get them to emigrate.

Similarly, it would then be incredibly easy for them to write back to "relatives" on Earth, including simple coded messages about what is happening in the area (i.e. locations of a single ship / shipyard / mining location / presence of aliens / etc). It wouldn't have to be technical details / drawings / etc, but with a couple of thousand spies spread throughout an enemy country, a reasonably comprehensive overview of the enemy is going to be able to be developed.....

[Bremen]

I know I am enjoying this. I think the whole passion in this debate arises from everyone involved enjoying the story.

This is a good point. Isn't there a saying about knowing when you hit the big time because you start getting critics? 

[MWadwell]

G'Day Steve,

As an Australian, I've been very interested in the Australian Empire, and as a result, have a few comments to make..... 

With the closeness of the AUS-UK relationship, why isn't there more formal treaties in place?

I understand that AUS-UK have a trade treaty (with Canada), and (unofficially) co-ordinate militarily, but I'm confused over why there isn't (at a minimum) a military treaty between the two nations.

Similarly, with the colonies on common planets, why there isn't better arrangements (i.e. complementing ship designs, R&D specialisation, joint exploration missions, shared R&D projects, shared intelligence) between the two nations?

Afterall - this kind of co-ordination was common between the UK and Australia until the 1960's, and is common today between the US and Australia (i.e. one of the un-spoken rules of ship procurement, is that individual systems are to be as compatible as possible with US systems (for spare parts), and that the overall ship must be capable of acting as part of a US task force). Of course, with NATO being a common arrangement, this means that Australian ships can act with UK ships as well (as witnessed in off Kuwait in 1991).


So, do you think that such a close relationship is possible in your campaign, or are there "issues" that would result in a bit of distance happening.....

Thanks!

[Father Tim]

I think the CAN-UK-AUS tripartite alliance works because we (Canada) get the cold parts, you (Australia) get the hot parts, and they (U.K.) get the wet bits in the middle.  A lovely, mutually-beneficial non-competitive arrangement.

Which I too would like to see lead to more tech transfers and sharing. We'll provide the steak, you provide the shrimp, and they can provide the barbie.